Romans 4, water baptism?

cornopean

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Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,
  • "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
  • "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
  • "circumcision is nothing."
go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?
 

cornopean

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That's interesting. So you are suggesting that being baptized into Christ involves the baptizer saying "I baptize you into the Name of Jesus..."?

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of it.

I'll just note that Spirit baptism is also "into Christ".

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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That's interesting. So you are suggesting that being baptized into Christ involves the baptizer saying "I baptize you into the Name of Jesus..."?

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of it.

I'll just note that Spirit baptism is also "into Christ".

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)
Prior to the trinitarian formula being the thing, they were under a rabbinical system, so there was this whole thing about which teacher baptized who, and Paul was like did I die for you? Did Apollos die for you? so the amendment to the rabinnical baptism was in Jesus name. Later on the trinitiarian formula was adopted because of the rise of gnosticism.
 
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cornopean

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Prior to the trinitarian formula being the thing, they were under a rabbinical system, so there was this whole thing about which teacher baptized who, and Paul was like did I die for you? Did Apollos die for you? so the amendment to the rabinnical baptism was in Jesus name. Later on the trinitiarian formula was adopted because of the rise of gnosticism.
Do you see any color of truth in the argument that Paul was rather disinterested in external rites like baptism, etc. and yet in Romans 6 he apparently says that baptism represents our union with Christ.

Does that not seem odd that both of these comments would come from the same man?
 
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Do you see any color of truth in the argument that Paul was rather disinterested in external rites like baptism, etc. and yet in Romans 6 he apparently says that baptism represents our union with Christ.

Does that not seem odd that both of these comments would come from the same man?
Not so much, since the letters were written in different decades to different audiences. Balance is key.
 
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sandman

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Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,
  • "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
  • "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
  • "circumcision is nothing."
go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?

God was not limited to word use. To insert water or assume water when the Bible doesn’t say it is private interpretation.

Jesus Christ stated before he was taken up

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but (contrasting conjunction) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

In the vernacular …When the greater came ….the lesser was done away with.
 
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cornopean

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God was not limited to word use. To insert water or assume water when the Bible doesn’t say it is private interpretation.

Jesus Christ stated before he was taken up

Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but (contrasting conjunction) ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

In the vernacular …When the greater came ….the lesser was done away with.
A good observation as well. Thank you for this.
 
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Veritas1

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It is clear that when Paul was baptised by Ananias, baptism with water was already established in the Church as the incorporation into Christ and the Church. Paul teaches the significance of this rite of baptism with water.
Ephesians 5:25-27 'Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, so as to present the church to Himself in splendour, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind - yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.'
Christians washed in baptism have been consecrated and made upright, as we read in Paul's first letter to the Church at Corinth:
1 Cor 6:11 'But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God'.
Paul does not quote a baptismal formula, but here we do see Paul echoing the early Church's recognition of the presence of the Trinity in baptism.

Paul compares baptism to Israel's passage through the waters of the Red Sea:
1 Cor 10:1-4 'I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink'.
Reflect on the cloud - God was present with His People in the cloud - and understand what Paul is saying here about God's presence among His People. In the water of baptism, the new Israel of God is formed.

Paul uses 4 prepositions with Christ as the object. Through Christ, into Christ, with Christ and in Christ. 'Into Christ' is used by Paul in relation to faith and baptism. It expresses the initial Christian experience of movement towards Christ: from 'in Adam' and 'under the Law', the new Christian is incorporated 'into Christ'.

Christ described His own death as a baptism: 'I have a baptism with which to be baptised, and what stress I am under until it is completed' (Lk 12:50). 'Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or be baptised with the baptism that I am baptised with?' (Mk 10:38). And Paul compares the immersion in water at baptism with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. By this baptism in water the new Christan dies with Christ and is raised up with Christ, a new creation.
 
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Veritas1

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ARTICLE
Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?
Paul's use of hyperbole does not change the fact that baptism is an essential aspect of the gospel and thus necessary for salvation

KARLO BROUSSARD •
8/24/2020
Listen to the audio version of this content
Protestants like to use 1 Corinthians 1:17 to claim that this teaching contradicts the Bible. Paul writes, “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.” Those who appeal to this verse argue that Paul dissociates baptism from the gospel. And if baptism is not part of the gospel, it can’t be necessary for salvation.

In my book Meeting the Protestant Challenge, I offer three ways we can meet this challenge. Let’s take a look at them here.


First, the challenge confuses the duty to administer the rite of baptism with baptism being essential to the gospel.

Paul doesn’t say that baptism is not essential to the gospel. What does and doesn’t constitute the gospel is not Paul’s concern here. Rather, he is concerned with the administration of baptism.

Paul is addressing a problem that arose in the Corinthian church, where some were identifying themselves with particular ministers and causing division within the community. Paul writes,

For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ” (1 Cor. 1:11-12).

In subsequent verses, Paul gives a hint as to why the Corinthians were identifying themselves with different ministers:

[W]ere you baptized in the name of Paul? I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius; lest anyone should say that you were baptized in my name (vv.13-14).

Apparently, the Corinthians were adopting religious affiliations based on the minister who baptized them. Consequently, Paul was grateful that he hadn’t baptized more people than he did among the Corinthians, lest they affiliate themselves with him.

It is within this context that Paul says, “For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel” (1 Cor. 1:17). His intent is not to separate the sacrament of baptism from the gospel but rather to clarify his own part in the administration of the actual rite of baptism among the Corinthians.

Even if we conceded, for argument’s sake, that Paul wasn’t sent to baptize in a strict, general sense, it doesn’t follow that baptism is not essential to the gospel. His preaching of the gospel could have included the necessity of baptism for salvation—with the administration of the actual rite of baptism left to other ministers. Someone other than Paul performing baptism wouldn’t preclude baptism from being essential to the gospel message that Paul preached.

But as we’ll see in our next two ways of meeting the challenge, we have good reason to not take Paul’s statement in a strict sense.

A second way to meet the challenge is point out that Paul is using hyperbole, and he’s using it to emphasize two things: 1) it doesn’t matter by whom you’re baptized, and 2) his apostolic role is not restricted to administering baptism but also involves preaching the gospel.

We know that Paul’s statement, “For Christ did not send me to baptize,” is hyperbolic because Jesus commanded all the apostles to make disciples of all nations by baptizing them (Matt.28:19-20). And since Paul is an apostle, it therefore belongs to his ministry to baptize.

Moreover, if Paul weren’t sent to baptize in a strict sense, then he would have acted in disobedience when he baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas, which he tells us about in verse 14. Do we want to say that the great apostle Paul was disobedient to Jesus’ instruction?

With this hyperbolic speech, Paul is stressing that it doesn’t matter by whom you’re baptized. Whether it’s Apollos, Cephas, or Paul who baptizes, we’re all incorporated into the same “fellowship of [God’s] Son, Jesus Christ our Lord” (1 Cor. 1:9).

The use of hyperbole is similar to Jesus’ teaching in John 12:44: “He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.” Of course, Jesus doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t believe in him. With the “not . . . but” formula, he is merely emphasizing the importance of the Father’s authority with which he is sent and consequently that we shouldn’t believe in Jesus alone but also in the Father.

This is the same kind of language that Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 1:17. Other examples include John 6:27 and 12:44; 1 Cor. 15:10; 1 Peter 3:3,4; Mark 9:37; Matt. 10:20; Acts 5:4; 1 Thess. 4:8; Gen. 45:8; and Titus 3:5.

Finally, we can meet this challenge by showing how the assertion that baptism is not essential to the gospel is inconsistent with Romans 6, in which Paul introduces baptism as the experience of death and resurrection in Christ:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:3-4).

Paul goes on to articulate the effects of this baptismal death and resurrection:

We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin (6-7).

What’s interesting about this passage is that the Greek doesn’t say “freed from sin.” The Greek word translated “freed” is dedikaiōtai, which means “justified.” So the text can literally be translated, “justified from sin.”

Modern translations render it as “freed from sin” because the context is clearly about sanctification. For example, in the verse before Paul speaks of baptismal death, he speaks of those in Christ as having “died to sin” (v.2). As quoted above, Paul speaks of those who have died the death of baptism as “no longer enslaved to sin” (v.6).

In verses 17-18, Paul actually uses a form of the Greek word for “free” (eleutheroō) in relation to the freedom from sin that we receive in Christ:

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free [eleutherothentes] from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

This tells us that, for Paul, justification can include sanctification, which is the interior renewal of the soul whereby the objective guilt of sin is removed. If justification and sanctification are essential to the gospel, which they are, and for Paul baptism justifies and sanctifies, which it does, then it follows that for Paul baptism is essential to the gospel.

Given Paul’s teaching elsewhere that baptism justifies and sanctifies us, his use of hyperbole in the passage in question, and the fact that the challenge doesn’t work even if we take him literally, the appeal to 1 Corinthians 1:17 fails as a challenge to the Catholic belief that baptism is an essential aspect of the gospel and thus necessary for salvation
 
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cornopean

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Are you suggesting that Paul was not baptised with water by Ananias? (Acts 22:12-16)
No, I do believe that Paul was baptized with water by Ananias. In Paul's ministry, however, he seemed to have a marked disinterest in external rites like baptism.
 
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cornopean

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It is clear that when Paul was baptised by Ananias, baptism with water was already established in the Church as the incorporation into Christ and the Church. Paul teaches the significance of this rite of baptism with water.
Ephesians 5:25-27 'Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, so as to present the church to Himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind - yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.'
I agree that Paul is making a reference to baptism here, but it's clearly not the washing with physical water that he cares about. For him, the spiritual reality behind the visible ritual is what really matters. It's the word of God that is the water that does the washing as you quoted above. Paul is thinking of literal water here.

Christians washed in baptism have been consecrated and made upright, as we read in Paul's first letter to the Church at Corinth:
1 Cor 6:11 'But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God'.
Paul does not quote a baptismal formula, but here we do see Paul echoing the early Church's recognition of the presence of the Trinity in baptism.
Again, I would suggest that the washing here is not a physical washing with H2O but this is a metaphor for being washed clean by the Spirit of God, a spiritual washing.

Paul compares baptism to Israel's passage through the waters of the Red Sea:
1 Cor 10:1-4 'I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink'.
Reflect on the cloud - God was present with His People in the cloud - and understand what Paul is saying here about God's presence among His People. In the water of baptism, the new Israel of God is formed.
So here, the baptism did involve real, physical water. But the visible baptism in the cloud represented a spiritual reality which Paul calls here being baptized into Moses. By this baptism in the cloud, Israel was marked as disciples of Moses. That all of Paul's emphasis is on the spiritual reality is clear when he next speaks of eating spiritual food and drinking spiritual drink. So I agree that in the water of baptism the New Israel is formed but it's not literal water. It's the action of the Holy Spirit.


And Paul compares the immersion in water at baptism with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. By this baptism in water the new Christan dies with Christ and is raised up with Christ, a new creation.
This is what I am disputing. In Paul's theology, it is not water baptism that brings a Christian to die and rise with Christ. It's Spirit baptism.
 
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Veritas1

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Dear cornopean,
I don't see anything in Paul's letter to suggest that he was expressing disinterested in external rites. He was interested in making sure that he did not attract a personal following. He didn't want anyone to claim 'I was baptised by Paul'. His focus was on preaching Christ Crucified and Risen.
Throughout his letters we see the imprint of Christian communities developing a rich spiritual and liturgical life guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,
  • "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
  • "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
  • "circumcision is nothing."
go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?

Baptized into Christ=Immersed into Christ. Has nothing to do with water baptism.
 
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Veritas1

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Dear cornopean,
Water is the outward sign or symbol of the inner reality. We are not disembodied spirits. John 3:5 'No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.'
Where in Scripture can I find 'Spirit baptism'?

Water is God's gift, it gives life to everything that lives on earth. At creation, the Spirit of God breathed on the waters to make water the source of life. At Jesus' baptism in the waters of the Jordan, the Spirit descended on Jesus as a prelude to the new creation, as the Father revealed Jesus as His beloved Son. The blood and water flowed from Jesus' pierced side as he died on the cross, making it possible for is to be born of water and Spirit. It is through the water of Baptism that the seed of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect. It is the gestures and words that signify and bring about the beginning of new life, as the Church asks God that through His Son the power of the Holy Spirit may be sent upon the baptismal water, so that those who are to be baptised in it may be 'born of water and the Spirit'. Baptism signifies and brings about the death to sin and entry into the life of the Trinity through the Pascal mystery of Christ.
Immersion or pouring of water symbolises purification from sin and effects a new birth in the Holy Spirit. From the baptismal water is born the People of God of the New Covenant, a New Creation. Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ.
It is God who made water the source of life at the beginning of Creation and again at the beginning of the New Creation. It is God's Will that water gives life at the birth of Creation and at the new birth of every new member of the Body of Christ.
 
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cornopean

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Dear cornopean,
I don't see anything in Paul's letter to suggest that he was expressing disinterested in external rites. He was interested in making sure that he did not attract a personal following. He didn't want anyone to claim 'I was baptised by Paul'. His focus was on preaching Christ Crucified and Risen.
Throughout his letters we see the imprint of Christian communities developing a rich spiritual and liturgical life guided by the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I agree with you in terms of "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius."

But when Paul says: "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." that seems a pretty clear statement that he valued the one much higher than the other. no?

btw....I found chapter 4 in this book to be very interesting on this. https://www.google.com/books/editio...AQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA9&printsec=frontcover
 
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cornopean

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Dear cornopean,
Water is the outward sign or symbol of the inner reality. We are not disembodied spirits. John 3:5 'No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.'
Where in Scripture can I find 'Spirit baptism'?

The most obvious reference to Spirit baptism is here:
1Cor. 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink.
 
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Good day,

An exegetical question for you if you're willing. I am wrestling with Romans 6 and Paul's reference to baptism in v4. I always approached this text with the idea that Paul was referring to the rite of water baptism. After reading around on this, it seems like there are good reasons for rejecting this. (this is not about paedo/credo baptism)

Just consider these reasons which I found to be rather convincing. Could the same man that wrote,
  • "I thank God I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius" and
  • "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the Gospel." and
  • "circumcision is nothing."
go on to write that by water baptism we are buried into Christ's death (Rom 6)? which I take to be a reference to union with Christ? How could Paul on the one hand show such disinterest in the outward ceremonies of baptism and circumcision and then teach that water baptism represents something as significant as "uniting us to Christ" in Romans 6? Nothing is more important for Paul than union with Christ; I think that is pretty clear. Furthermore, Paul seems quite uninterested in the ritual of water baptism. So....why do we believe that Paul is thinking of water baptism in Romans 6? Isn't it far more likely that Paul is referring here to Spirit baptism as in 1Cor 12:13? That seems to be a more consistent way to understand Romans 6.

Now I understand that all the commentators are against me on this; but why?
As has been mentioned already, when Paul was saying he was glad he had not baptized many, it was because he did not want to be additional fuel for the divisions in the Church over who each person had been baptized by. (It is not who baptized, but in whose name we were baptized that matters.)

Please remember that it is not Paul writing these words, but the Holy Spirit breathing into Paul the words to write. God is the author; Paul is just the "ghost writer".

Looking at all of what has been said about baptism in Scripture, start with Eph 4:4-6, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
There is only one baptism in the NT Church.
Next, when we look at 1 Pet 3:20-21, "while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,", Eph 5:26-27, "that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.", and Acts 22:16, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.", we must conclude that the baptism to which this is referring is water baptism.
Next, when we look at Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." and Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." we see that baptism is commanded as "leading to" salvation, not "because we have been" saved or "flowing out of" salvation.
Next, looking at Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14, we see that "Spirit baptism" is the Spirit's action of removing sin, uniting us with Christ in His death and resurrection, and adding us to the body of Christ (the Church) which occurs during water baptism (as established in the previous paragraph).

Paul is not against physical rites. Looking at the jailer in Corinth, Paul took him and his family "that same hour of the night" and baptized them; Paul himself was instructed to be baptized immediately (if this was Spirit baptism, he wouldn't have needed to move from where he was); and Phillip baptized the eunuch on the road as soon as they passed by water in which he could be baptized, etc.
 
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