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Right v Left - would this sum up the difference?

Discussion in 'American Politics' started by MorkandMindy, Oct 17, 2020.

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  1. Oompa Loompa

    Oompa Loompa Against both police brutality and cop killing.

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    Well, you did make a very controversial and baseless generalization of the right which appears to be both inaccurate and biased. But whatever it takes to get traction on your thread...I guess.
     
  2. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    That's because mammon is not synonymous with money and material possessions; more so it means the desire for accumulation, the greed, the covetousness, the idolatry, and what is called "the love of money".

    For example, I need money and material things. I need a roof over my head, clothes, food, and a few other things. I need some money also. However, I don't need everything that I want; I don't even need everything that I have. If I put something of mine which I have ahead of the well-being of a human being, then I have just committed idolatry. I have put the love of the thing (be it money or possessions) ahead of caring for my fellow man which is God's commandment to me. I have then served mammon over God. The Lord tells us directly that man cannot serve both God and mammon - he will love one and hate the other.

    I hope that makes it clearer. It is a fundamental of Christian belief because in this lies the key to understanding God and His Will and His Commandments towards us, which in turn is the basis for understanding His Gift of Salvation.

    So the question is essentially "when is enough material possession enough", meaning at what point does the accumulation of material wealth/possessions become enough for one's needs and start going into the territory of being the idol of mammon?

    I think that for people who are conservative there is no limit - they don't believe in "too much" or "mammon". They believe accumulation is actually good and holy. I don't understand how a Christian on the right reconciles that with what God's Word teaches and instructs them to do - I'll let them try to answer that.
     
  3. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    What I've found is a thread does not need to be unfounded, baseless or in any other way false, but it does need to make a simple point.

    So10 steps to fix the country and World is 9 points too many and it is no surprise that it promptly died.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  4. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Perhaps you would like to reply here, but I'll be out for a few hours now and it would be better to get a wider range of responses so I'd suggest opening a thread on that point.

    Being just one person with one pair of ears and living in one area I can not avoid having an unrepresentative sample, though I have met hundreds of people in the last 5 years and opinions seem to group into a few specific points of view, so I have that to work from.

    I've heard a lot of people with the viewpoint that if a person can not make enough money to survive then it is their fault and there is no reason why other people should be forced to help them.

    I'd be interested to hear if that opinion is rare or defective or something so I can focus on the main opinions in play.
     
  5. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Controversial perhaps, but far from baseless. @MorkandMindy basically summed up the general consensus on how right vs. left is perceived. It's based in a lot of fact and is neither inaccurate nor biased.

    It's really your reply that presents a view that is controversial and baseless as well as inaccurate and biased. But whatever it takes to get traction on your post...I guess.
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    No, it doesn't. It may sum up the stereotype that people who loathe anything right of center like to promote, but that's about all that could be said for the description that was posted. Well, perhaps not absolutely "all;" people who don't understand the terms (Right, Left) might also make this mistake, I'll agree.
     
  7. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    If that is the case, the answer to the original question “when is enough mammon enough” is ZERO! Nobody should ever have any mammon because mammon is a very bad thing to have.
    If Mammon is as bad as you said it is, people shouldn’t serve mammon at all! Judging from your description, I think it is possible for the wealthiest man in the world to have no mammon, and the poor man to have a lot of mammon. Do you agree?
    Wait; I thought you said mammon was NOT synonymous with wealth and money! Just because someone has material wealth doesn’t mean their wealth will go into the territory of being an idol, or put in front of the wellbeing of other people. Bill Gates is one of the worlds wealthiest men; he started the worlds largest charity helping millions world wide. This is not mammon as you describe it; is it?. Then there are people who have very little, yet they become so possessive of the little bit they have that they allow it to become an idol. IOW mammon isn’t a poison that only effects the rich, it can effect anybody; do you agree?
    If the person uses his possessions to help people, to make the world a better place, an argument can be made that there is never enough mammon someone could possess because there is never going to be a point when nobody needs help, or the world no longer needs to be improved. Do you agree? Perhaps this is the conservative Christians view of mammon
     
  8. Oompa Loompa

    Oompa Loompa Against both police brutality and cop killing.

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    If you truly would like to understand the point of view of the conservative, as explained by conservatives,I would recommend watching this video. I am not expecting you to agree with anything it says, but at least have a better understanding of what the conservative right actually believe. Spoiler: they want to help people too.

     
  9. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    People don't read my threads if they are complicated, a 5 part series... maybe one day.

    I will agree, if that is something most of us can agree on, the country has an overly complex Big Government, more complicated than the Left or the Right want.

    Like take this part of the US medical administration:

    US Healthcare System.png
    and consider how many parts relate to how many other parts, and that medical costing in one nearby hospital has more people working in it than there are beds.

    Our middle of the road mixed right/left/profiteering/bureaucratic mess is more complicated than going either way.
     
  10. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Single payer is simple payer:

    NHS Top Level Diag.png

    I never confuse the 'Democratic Party' with the 'Left'. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, Hillary lost for sundry reasons including that she was further to the right than Donald Trump so why would anyone vote for her. She was a firm advocate of every war going and only after a year or two dropped TPP. Donald Trump talked about bringing back manufacturing jobs while Hillary spoke of 'a basket of deplorables'.

    D.T. needs to do a bit more to win. Both party candidates are owned by or belong to the rich, but they need to show a bit of Left wing to get the votes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  11. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    No, you're incorrect. It sums up the overall reality of the political landscape of today in America.
     
  12. Oompa Loompa

    Oompa Loompa Against both police brutality and cop killing.

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    That chart makes my head explode. But even the authors of the ACA have admitted that it was intended to fail so it would ultimately lead to a single payer system. Another reason not to trust progressives.
     
  13. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    In the context of the question asked by the other poster it was material possessions but you're right that it's actually excessive material possession and the worship that goes with it. So, I stand corrected inasmuch as that goes. Mammon in the Biblical sense, where it is tied to the idolatry of it, is very bad, whereas money or possessions in and of themselves are not.

    But the question "when is enough actually enough" is referring to possessions, and the answer lies in when those possessions become an idol to the owner (i.e. mammon).

    First, I'll assume by "wealthiest" you mean in terms of money and material possessions (because that's not my definition of "wealth" but I'll assume it's yours here). Yes, it's possible. It would probably be very difficult because even poor people can and often serve mammon so it must be much harder for those with far more material possessions. It's possible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle also but barely possible.

    It can be - there is an overlap. Is a "stolen car" synonymous with a "car"? It can be. Not all cars are stolen, but those which are stolen are both "cars" and "stolen cars". Anyway, I explained earlier and I'll admit I didn't explain it correctly or thoroughly the first time - I'll take that on me and say I was wrong.

    That's true, it is possible. It's not likely but it is possible. So I'm saying "there's a chance!!!" Just like there's a chance that the current top supermodel in New York will marry me by the end of the year - it's technically possible for sure.

    I don't know, it might be or it might not be. What matters is why he does it. Even if he is doing that altruistically (and I can't say he is or isn't) it doesn't mean he doesn't worship mammon at all; that particular example may not be an example of him worshiping mammon but I'm pretty sure Bill Gates spends lots of money on other things as well.

    Furthermore, there is a parable of the widow's mite where a widow gives a couple pennies as alms and the wealthy men of the temple give far, far more, yet Christ says the widow's pennies are far more valuable because she sacrificed much more than those wealthy man. So, even Bill Gates can't buy his way out of mammon worship. His millions may be less of a sacrifice than another man's $20.

    Absolutely. I said earlier in this post that many and even most who are not rich, and who are even poor, also worship mammon. But the case you describe is not necessarily mammon-worship. Those who are poor and even of average means and are overly protective of their meager or limited financial and material possessions are typically doing so out of a survival/security need as opposed to a need to satiate their greed or lusts. That's not really mammon-worship, although mammon-worship can (and often does) accompany that.

    If someone uses material possessions and money to give to others than that is not mammon. Mammon is the excessive, selfishly-desired and kept material possessions and money. Nobody will ever have enough of any material possessions or money to help everyone in the world. I don't see how this would be an argument for anyone, let alone conservatives. Conservative (and any other) Christians who worship mammon are disobeying God and breaking the commandment God gives them in His Word, that's all there is to it. There's no excuses for that at all, even though a lot of those people are constantly coming up with rationalizations and excuses.
     
  14. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    The standard cliche is that conservatives are all head and no heart, whereas liberals are all heart and no head.

    The idea that the Left cares about people and the Right cares about money is just left-wing propaganda. It is indistinguishable from the German WWII propaganda I referenced earlier in the thread.
     
  15. ArmenianJohn

    ArmenianJohn Politically Liberal Christian Fundamentalist

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    Where did the authors of the ACA admit that it was intended to fail??? Sounds like you made that up completely.
     
  16. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    But a quick look at the real world and you will see some of the super rich give more and do more to help the poor than anyone else. Bill Gates isn’t the only billionaire who has pledged to give his fortune to charity upon death; lots have done it. How can you say it is possible but unlikely when you see examples of it happening all around you?
    Spending money on expensive things does not mean he is putting his money ahead of that which is important.
    This makes no sense to me. Why would you think charity only matters if the loss of the money weighs heavily on the person giving? If you and your family are hungry and in need of help, would you prefer a poor man give you his last $20 to help feed your family? Or would you prefer Bill Gates to give you $1,000 to feed your family and a job to keep them fed? The benefit of $1,000 is secondary to how much Bill Gates suffers in its absence. Does this make sense to you? If not; please explain.
    And people who become super rich usually don’t get that way by attempting to make money, they get that way by starting a business and the money just sorta follows via the growth of the business. These people do it because they care about the business they built; not because of the wealth associated with the business.
    I’m not talking about giving money to others, I’m talking about using their money to bring vaccines to villages who don’t have access to them thus saving countless lives. I’m talking about having wells dug in places where clean water is scarce improving the lives of thousands. I’m talking about using a percentage of your money in a way that helps those who really need it.
    Why is it assumed that this usually describes the rich?
    So do you agree a person could feel there is no limit on the amount of wealth he could accumulate while not resorting to mammon?
     
  17. Sparagmos

    Sparagmos Well-Known Member

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    . The working conditions in Amazon warehouses are disgusting, and in some cases illegal. And they aren’t paid nearly the value of their work, as demonstrated by the insane profits extracted from their labor. Bezos wealth comes from exploitation of workers.

    Some. Landlords prey on the poor, who don’t have the resources to seek legal help or protect their interests. Many landlords just blatantly break the law knowing that their tenants won’t have the courage or resources to hold them accountable.

    . The only reason “nobody else will hire them” is that Walmart pushes out the smaller businesses that those people would be working at. Like Bezos, they extract huge profits from their employees’ labor, and even worse, don’t provide a living wage or affordable health insurance. Walmart is rolling in dough while their employees have to get state assistance to live. It’s exploitive.
     
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  18. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I got very depressed trying to get through the healthcare system, and the chart isn't the only problem, try reading SSA 1905 or SSA 1902, or any of the other relevant documents.

    In the end what really caught me was administrators lying to me.
     
  19. MorkandMindy

    MorkandMindy Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure it is due to all that junk the lobbyists put in to ensure their employers get really rich.
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    I don't believe it will be like that, I think God will always provide for us new discoveries, new things to learn, new places to be or go or explore, and possibly new challenges to overcome, etc, but we will not have to ever worry about our basic needs, or basic survival, and be striving for those kinds of things, for those needs will always be fully met, and will free us up for whatever God has in store for next, then after that, next, and I don't think that will ever end, etc...

    I believe the whole entire universe and beyond will be our playground, etc, and that the opportunities for discovery, and self discovery, and learning, will never end, etc, and if they do there, or if they ever do there, or here, I think there will always be "more" for us with God...

    We will be always be cared for in the area of our basic needs, but the rest will be up to us, and what we we want after that, etc, and that nothing will be withheld from us, etc...

    God Bless!
     
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