Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

[Zao is life]

But the first ressurection is anyone who has overcome this earth age by believing in Christ before the last trump. That includes anyone who has passed on or who are still alive at his coming. The rest of the dead (spiritually) will have to wait for the 2nd.

True.

 

[shilohsfoal]

This came to me too within the past year. I don't believe in soul-sleep and I believe that if this is true, then most of those who have died in Christ we will remain resting in Christ, but there are some who will be bodily resurrected when Christ returns - however - the following does not imply that only some will be resurrected bodily when Christ returns, so it contradicts such a belief, and does not grant the liberty of the above private interpretation:

And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,

for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,

because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.
(1 Thess 4:13-18).

Paul did not receive the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul was very knowledgeable concerning the prophets because he was a Pharisees and studied the prophets and after receiving the holy spirit he was enlightened. But the prophets of Israel only spoke of one revelation and that one was concerning Israel.

Because Paul did not recieve the revelation of Christ, he never knew of another resurection and therefore had no knowledge of it and never spoke of two.

 

[rwb]

We are born spiritually from above by the Spirit that quickens.

Yes, after Christ was bodily resurrected, He ascended to heaven, and then He sent His Holy Spirit to indwell and raise believers to spiritual life. Therefore it is through the resurrection of Christ, that we are born again of the Spirit (raised to spiritual life), and partake of Christ's resurrection life. That is why and how we are of the first resurrection; Christ's bodily resurrection assured all who believe in Him partake of His resurrection life through His Spirit.

 

[shilohsfoal]

I could say the same generic argument that you misinterpret the passage without providing any evidence. Please explain specifically how it is wrong to believe that when we are baptized into Christ's death, we are raised with Him to walk in a newness of life.

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.



I agree



I never said the verse stated "spiritual resurrection". The verse simply states that we are baptized in his death and also raised with him through faith.

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.




No, scripture mentions 2 resurrection events:

1.) Jesus at his 1st advent

2.) The resurrection at his coming.

The book of Revelation speaks of two separate resurrections. The first takes place at the beginning of the last day. The latter takes place at the end of the last day.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Yes, after Christ was bodily resurrected, He ascended to heaven, and then He sent His Holy Spirit to indwell and raise believers to spiritual life. Therefore it is through the resurrection of Christ, that we are born again of the Spirit (raised to spiritual life), and partake of Christ's resurrection life. That is why and how we are of the first resurrection; Christ's bodily resurrection assured all who believe in Him partake of His resurrection life through His Spirit.

According to scripture, those who take part in the first resurrection were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus. If you have taken part in this resurrection, can you tell me howany days passed from the time you was beheaded to the day you was resurrected?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

The book of Revelation speaks of two separate resurrections. The first takes place at the beginning of the last day. The latter takes place at the end of the last day.

The Bible speaks only of the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection, and the bodily resurrection of all humanity when Christ comes again.

 

[shilohsfoal]

The Bible speaks only of the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection, and the bodily resurrection of all humanity when Christ comes again.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

 

[rwb]

According to scripture, those who take part in the first resurrection were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus. If you have taken part in this resurrection, can you tell me howany days passed from the time you was beheaded to the day you was resurrected?

The Scripture teaches all who partake of the first resurrection, have escaped the second death. The only way to escape the second death is to partake of Christ in life.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, after Christ was bodily resurrected, He ascended to heaven, and then He sent His Holy Spirit to indwell and raise believers to spiritual life. Therefore it is through the resurrection of Christ, that we are born again of the Spirit (raised to spiritual life), and partake of Christ's resurrection life. That is why and how we are of the first resurrection; Christ's bodily resurrection assured all who believe in Him partake of His resurrection life through His Spirit.

Can't be "raised to" spiritual life. We were born without it. We can only be born spiritually from above. Once we are born spiritually from above, because we are born from above by the Spirit of Christ, Christ's Spirit dwells in us and we in Him. We can be raised bodily in Christ, as He was raised bodily. We only become spirit, soul and body when our spirit is born from above. It's born from above, not "raised to" spiritual life. Our spiritual life is born, not "raised to life".

 

[shilohsfoal]

The Scripture teaches all who partake of the first resurrection, have escaped the second death. The only way to escape the second death is to partake of Christ in life.

According to the passage, those who are resurrected in the first resurrection were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus.
How much would you like to add to God's word to make it sound better to you?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

Exactly! We see living and reigning with Christ is to have part in the first resurrection, having escaped the second death. They are blessed and holy, and reign with Christ the thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead are not raised to life again until the thousand years expire. So how can they live and reign with Christ the thousand years, and be part of the first resurrection, if they are not raised to life again until the thousand years are finished?

John speaks only of the first resurrection, and the bodily resurrection after the thousand years are finished. In the first resurrection they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. After the thousand years end and the bodily resurrection there is no more thousand years for them to live and reign with Christ in so "the rest of the dead" will have their part in the second death.

 

[rwb]

Can't be "raised to" spiritual life. We were born without it. We can only be born spiritually from above. Once we are born spiritually from above, because we are born from above by the Spirit of Christ, Christ's Spirit dwells in us and we in Him. We can be raised bodily in Christ, as He was raised bodily. We only become spirit, soul and body when our spirit is born from above. It's born from above, not "raised to" spiritual life. Our spiritual life is born, not "raised to life".

Every living human is physically born with a body and spirit, and in life become a living soul. True we don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling our spirit until we born again. This is to have life from above. Who is above giving us His resurrection life when He sent His Spirit to indwell us when we believed?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Exactly! We see living and reigning with Christ is to have part in the first resurrection, having escaped the second death. They are blessed and holy, and reign with Christ the thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead are not raised to life again until the thousand years expire. So how can they live and reign with Christ the thousand years, and be part of the first resurrection, if they are not raised to life again until the thousand years are finished?

John speaks only of the first resurrection, and the bodily resurrection after the thousand years are finished. In the first resurrection they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. After the thousand years end and the bodily resurrection there is no more thousand years for them to live and reign with Christ in so "the rest of the dead" will have their part in the second death.

No. John spoke of two separate bodily resurrections. The first resurrection is of those who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus, and who did not worship the beast or its image.
The rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years are expired.

In other words, your going to miss the sabbath day and you don't even know it.

 

[rwb]

No. John spoke of two separate bodily resurrections. The first resurrection is of those who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus, and who did not worship the beast or its image.
The rest of the dead lived not again till the 1000 years are expired.

In other words, your going to miss the sabbath day and you don't even know it.

Nope! Sorry, you're reading your doctrine into the text. Nothing about two bodily resurrections. Only the first resurrection and one bodily resurrection after the thousand years are finished. If the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years expire, and you must live and reign with Christ for the thousand years and partake of the first resurrection to overcome the second death, what is the purpose for the bodily resurrection for the rest of the dead after the thousand years are finished?

The rest of the dead are bodily resurrected to stand before God and be judged from the things written in the books and the book of life. And since they did not live and reign with Christ for the thousand years, that have expired, they will have their part in the second death. The rest of the dead cannot be resurrected to live again because they did not live and reign with Christ a thousand years and have part in the first resurrection.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Nope! Sorry, you're reading your doctrine into the text. Nothing about two bodily resurrections. Only the first resurrection and one bodily resurrection after the thousand years are finished. If the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years expire, and you must live and reign with Christ for the thousand years and partake of the first resurrection to overcome the second death, what is the purpose for the bodily resurrection for the rest of the dead after the thousand years are finished?

The rest of the dead are bodily resurrected to stand before God and be judged from the things written in the books and the book of life. And since they did not live and reign with Christ for the thousand years, that have expired, they will have their part in the second death. The rest of the dead cannot be resurrected to live again because they did not live and reign with Christ a thousand years and have part in the first resurrection.

I'm not reading anything into the text. It says those who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus and those who did not worship the beast or his image. Now you claim that you are one of these who are resurrected in the first resurretion.
So will you tell me or not how long was it from the time you were beheaded till you was resurrected?

How bad did it hurt when you were beheaded? Was it very painful or was it quick and painless?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[DavidPT]

The following verse kills the doctrine of "soul sleep".

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


.

That verse you supplied appears to mean, not what happens to someone the moment they die, but is what happens when one is cast into the LOF. There is a clue in the text that undeniably proves this---which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When someone dies though, they don't bodily descend into hell. Only their soul would be descending into hell, assuming a scenario like that. But after one is raised from the dead in order to be judged and sentenced at the great white throne judgment, they would be being raised bodily. And if they are cast into the LOF, they are obviously cast into it bodily, thus--which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, where by 'hell' the lake of fire is meant.

I'm not defending soul sleep, I'm just pointing out that Matthew 10:28 doesn't appear to exactly disprove it. Whether soul sleep is Biblical or not, that is debatable. What should not be debatable is that it is untrue rather than true, that Matthew 10:28 kills that doctrine.

 

[shilohsfoal]

That verse you supplied appears to mean, not what happens to someone the moment they die, but is what happens when one is cast into the LOF. There is a clue in the text that undeniably proves this---which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When someone dies though, they don't bodily descend into hell. Only their soul would be descending into hell, assuming a scenario like that. But after one is raised from the dead in order to be judged and sentenced at the great white throne judgment, they would be being raised bodily. And if they are cast into the LOF, they are obviously cast into it bodily, thus--which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, where by 'hell' the lake of fire is meant.

I'm not defending soul sleep, I'm just pointing out that Matthew 10:28 doesn't appear to exactly disprove it. Whether soul sleep is Biblical or not, that is debatable. What should not be debatable is that it is untrue rather than true, that Matthew 10:28 kills that doctrine.

I remember when I thought the two witnesses were good and ascending into heaven in a cloud.
The more I read about them, the more I was concerned of thier works. I couldn't understand how someone who calls Jesus Lord would do the exact opposite of what he tells them. The more I thought about it, the more troubled I became.
I've come to the conclusion that it's not good to ascend in to heaven in that cloud.

The smoke of thier torment may just ascend for ever and ever.

 

[rwb]

I'm not reading anything into the text. It says those who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus and those who did not worship the beast or his image. Now you claim that you are one of these who are resurrected in the first resurretion.
So will you tell me or not how long was it from the time you were beheaded till you was resurrected?

How bad did it hurt when you were beheaded? Was it very painful or was it quick and painless?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Where are these souls living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years? Bear in mind they are disembodied. Can a disembodied soul live physically on the earth? Of course not. John sees alive souls without heads, since they cannot be physically alive John is seeing them as living souls (spiritual body) in heaven. Why are you not including vs 6 in your opinion? Is it because it proves there are not two bodily resurrections separated by ONE thousand years? If you really want to understand the passage from Rev 20, you would define by the context. Why don't you want to do that?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Where are these souls living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years? Bear in mind they are disembodied. Can a disembodied soul live physically on the earth? Of course not. John sees alive souls without heads, since they cannot be physically alive John is seeing them as living souls (spiritual body) in heaven. Why are you not including vs 6 in your opinion? Is it because it proves there are not two bodily resurrections separated by ONE thousand years? If you really want to understand the passage from Rev 20, you would define by the context. Why don't you want to do that?

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Because they are resurrected, they have bodies.
Scripture shows they reign in Jerusalem, Israel.
Both revelation and Ezekiel wrote about them. Ezekiel called them Israel and said they are a peaceful people who dwell safely without defences such as walls. Both books talk about Gog invading Israel. Ezekiel gives more detail as to what other countries are with Gog when he invades Israel. Both books talk of Gogs destruction in Israel.

PS. I almost forgot. Daniel wrote of them to. Daniel wrote that God gives them the kingdom which once belonged to the beast after it is destroyed.

 

[DavidPT]

I remember when I thought the two witnesses were good and ascending into heaven in a cloud.
The more I read about them, the more I was concerned of thier works. I couldn't understand how someone who calls Jesus Lord would do the exact opposite of what he tells them. The more I thought about it, the more troubled I became.
I've come to the conclusion that it's not good to ascend in to heaven in that cloud.

The smoke of thier torment may just ascend for ever and ever.

The first mistake you are making, you are applying the smoke of their torment to someone it doesn't and can't possibly apply to. While they were alive they were tormenting others. While they were dead, no one was being tormented, including them. When they raised back to life the 2W still aren't being tormented.

You seriously need to rethink some of this, IMO.