Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

[shilohsfoal]

How do you already know you won't? If you are forced to choose between worshiping the beast or have your head cut off, you're going to choose the former over the latter?

Because I don't live in Israel. I'm not Israeli.
Alot of people believe the little horn who kills the saints governs the entire world. I've learned the little horn governs a very little country in the pleasant land and does not govern the would. That's why he is described as little. Today he sits atop his seven hilled city he won by defeating three larger horns.

Alot of people have died in the last 2000 years who did not worship the beast or recieved his mark. They were never given the choice of laying down thier life for Christ just like me. They died of various things such as heart attacks or car accidents. It doesn't make them bad people if they do not take part in the first resurrection. It just means the first resurrection is for a specific group of people who have done something tremendous and are rewarded for thier deeds.

 

[claninja]

In Revelation 20:4, the first resurrection is being applied after they have been martyred, since the first resurrection is the reason they are able to live and reign with Christ a thousand years. The passages you submitted above, how would they be applicable to someone after they are already dead, and are living and reigning with Christ in heaven, in a bodiless manner, as in still awaiting their bodily resurrection? Those passages above, what does that look like in heaven when applying it to the souls reigning there with Christ at the time? Especially 3. All of this assuming Amil.

I simply can't wrap my head around as to how those passages above can be applied to someone after death while awaiting a bodily resurrection.

Amils are typically split on whether revelation 20:4 is fulfilled in heaven or on earth.

From John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

I hold that revelation 20:4 is fulfilled for those on earth who partake in Christ's resurrection through being born again.

I view revelation 20 in a similar manner as ephesians 2. Just as those who had been given authority to judge, had been beheaded, had not worshipped the beast, nor had taken the mark, lived and reigned with Christ, then those in Christ have been raised up and seated with Jesus in the heavenly places.

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Now to the verb tenses:

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

All the verbs highlighted in red are aorist indicative. They are past actions. The verb highlighted in blue is in perfect tense, meaning it is a completed action with ongoing results.

It's important to recognize that the verbs are expressed in past tense and DO NOT change to future tense when it comes to "they lived" and "reigned" with Christ according to the original greek.

It does not read that those who were "seated" (past tense), those had been "beheaded" (completed action), those who had not "worshipped" (past tense), and those who had not "received" (past tense), Will Live (future) or will reign (future).

In Revelation 20:4, John is not first seeing anyone still physically alive at the time. He is first seeing them physically dead, then seeing them physically alive again. That's the order of events.

Based on the verb tenses I read it differently. Of those who live and reign with Christ, some are given authority to judge, such as the 12 apostles during the regeneration, some are beheaded for Jesus' words, such as Paul and other martyrs, others do not worship the beast nor take its mark.

Those who partake in Christ's resurrection are raised from spiritual death to a newness of life and are seated with Christ in the heavenlies (ephesians 2:5-6), as a result, authority was given to the disciples to judge Israel (matthew 19:28) and many who are in Christ are persecuted (2 thessalonians 1:4-5, matthew 24:9). This is what I believe revelation 20:4-6 is about.

Again, I attempt to view revelation 20 through the lens of the gospels and epistles, not the other way around.

 

[claninja]

No, the passage is about those who were beheaded for thier testimony of Christ and they did not worship the beast or his image and they were resurrected and reign with Christ 1000 years.

Not just those who were beheaded, but also those who were given thrones and authority to judge, and those who did not take the mark of the beast.

They are the ones that partake in the first resurrection, of which the 2nd death will not hurt them and they will be a kingdom of priests to God (revelation 20:6). This was already a present reality for those of the 1st century (john 11:25-26, 1 peter 2:9).

It has nothing to do with you or anyone else who wants to claim your resurrected. Youve not been beheaded and you probably never will.
Why would you feel you should even be compared to these people who laid down thier life for Christ? Why do you even attempt to put yourself in that conversation? When you go out and preach the gospel and get your head cut off for it, come back and talk about it then. If you don't, then leave yourself out of thier resurrection.

I never claimed to be bodily resurrected.

Additionally, it is not only those who are beheaded that lived and reigned with Christ, but those who who did not worship the beast nor take its mark, and those who were given authority.

 

[claninja]

Not spiritual newness. We are not raised to spiritual newness.
1. We are born (born) from above by the Spirit of Christ - not "raised from death/raised from below" to "spiritual newness". That part is a false doctrine and the New Testament does not teach it:

According to Paul, When we are buried spiritually with Christ through baptism, we are raised spiritually with Him that we might walk in a newness of life:

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

2. Because His Spirit is now in us and we in Him, we now share with Christ in His bodily resurrection and we too shall be bodily resurrected. This (bodily) resurrection is the first resurrection.

The epistles or the gospels never state that our bodily resurrection is the 1st resurrection.

Jesus is the first resurrection, ours follows Jesus.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Not just those who were beheaded, but also those who were given thrones and authority to judge, and those who did not take the mark of the beast.

They are the ones that partake in the first resurrection, of which the 2nd death will not hurt them and they will be a kingdom of priests to God (revelation 20:6). This was already a present reality for those of the 1st century (john 11:25-26, 1 peter 2:9).





I never claimed to be bodily resurrected.

Additionally, it is not only those who are beheaded that lived and reigned with Christ, but those who who did not worship the beast nor take its mark, and those who were given authority.

The people who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus did not worship the beast or his image. These are not two separate peoples. If you knew who they were, you would have known that.

 

[Zao is life]

According to Paul, When we are buried spiritually with Christ through baptism, we are raised spiritually with Him that we might walk in a newness of life:

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

There is nothing in the above quotes which gives a valid reason for your misinterpretation of the verses.

1. Jesus was raised bodily after His physical death.
2. The verses say nothing of a "spiritual resurrection".

The epistles or the gospels never state that our bodily resurrection is the 1st resurrection.

Jesus is the first resurrection, ours follows Jesus.

So you mean the scriptures teach about a 2nd resurrection and a 3rd resurrection, etc?

 

[DavidPT]

The people who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus did not worship the beast or his image. These are not two separate peoples. If you knew who they were, you would have known that.

I tend to disagree. And one reason why, take John the Baptist and Justin Martyr, for instance. Both were literally beheaded, but neither were beheaded because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image,etc. There was not yet a beast to worship or not worship at the time. There was not yet it's image to worship or not worship at the time. But there was such a thing as being martyred at the time for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.

What I tend to think, the martyrs resting under the altar during the 5th seal are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God---and that their fellowservants who also are to be killed, are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

What I also tend to think, being beheaded can be applied both literally and non literally at the same time. In the case of someone such as John the Baptist and Justin Martyr, it is meaning literally. In the case of someone like Stephen, it is meaning non literally. Think about it, what does it mean to be beheaded? It means to be silenced, it means to no longer have ones voice heard on earth. And that's exactly what happened when they stoned Stephen, that from their perspective, they silenced him, they no longer had to listen to him.

One thing that some Amils need to keep in mind as well, since some Amils I have encountered in the past have claimed that when Stephen was stoned, it was because and during the time of the beast in Revelation 13, yet we are told the following which refutes that---Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Which period of time did Stephen live in? Obviously this period of time---and is not. No matter how one looks at it, until we enter this period of time---shall ascend out of the bottomless pit--there cannot yet be any martyrs who refuse to worship the beast, neither his image, neither have received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Until we enter that period of time we are still in this period of time---and is not. The question that begs an answer, which period of time are we currently living in, then?

 

[shilohsfoal]

I tend to disagree. And one reason why, take John the Baptist and Justin Martyr, for instance. Both were literally beheaded, but neither were beheaded because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image,etc. There was not yet a beast to worship or not worship at the time. There was not yet it's image to worship or not worship at the time. But there was such a thing as being martyred at the time for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.

What I tend to think, the martyrs resting under the altar during the 5th seal are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God---and that their fellowservants who also are to be killed, are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

What I also tend to think, being beheaded can be applied both literally and non literally at the same time. In the case of someone such as John the Baptist and Justin Martyr, it is meaning literally. In the case of someone like Stephen, it is meaning non literally. Think about it, what does it mean to be beheaded? It means to be silenced, it means to no longer have ones voice heard on earth. And that's exactly what happened when they stoned Stephen, that from their perspective, they silenced him, they no longer had to listen to him.

One thing that some Amils need to keep in mind as well, since some Amils I have encountered in the past have claimed that when Stephen was stoned, it was because and during the time of the beast in Revelation 13, yet we are told the following which refutes that---Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Which period of time did Stephen live in? Obviously this period of time---and is not. No matter how one looks at it, until we enter this period of time---shall ascend out of the bottomless pit--there cannot yet be any martyrs who refuse to worship the beast, neither his image, neither have received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Until we enter that period of time we are still in this period of time---and is not. The question that begs an answer, which period of time are we currently living in, then?

Blessed are they who die in the Lord from henceforth. Thier works do follow them.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."


Keep this verse in context of the previous verses.

Revelation 14:9 And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Revelation 14:10 he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."


For more accurate timing of when these saints begin to die you would need to pay attention when the Gentiles arrive. The second beast.

Daniel 11:33 KJV: And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Israel will soon be given a host.

 

[Zao is life]

What I tend to think, the martyrs resting under the altar during the 5th seal are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God---and that their fellowservants who also are to be killed, are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

I agree. The 5th seal is telling us that the 42-month reign of the beast is about to begin:

and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation. Rev 13:7

I seem to agree with most of what you say regarding the Revelation, but I asked you a question about something you said in another thread which I don't think you replied to (or at least I never saw it if you did reply). You had said that the trumpets and vials do not run parallel.

I don't believe that the events are necessarily "running" parallel either - but I do see how the final trumpets and vials each overlay the same pictures with different details. I'll tell you why I say this:

The first thing we should bear in mind is that the beast has already made its appearance by the time the first vial
is poured out. I had overlooked the above fact until someone else pointed it out to me:

"And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." Rev 16:2

Nevertheless as far as I can see, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are both talking about the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.

* The 5th trumpet talks about the bottomless pit being opened, and we know that the beast rises from the bottomless pit and receives its power, throne and great authority from the dragon.

* The 6th trumpet talks about a massive army being released to kill 1/3 of the world's population.
* The 6th bowl of wrath talks about the beast gathering his armies for the battle of Armageddon.

"And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." Rev 9:16 (6th trumpet).
"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." Rev 16:16 (6th vial).

* The 7th trumpet talks about the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.
* The 7th vial talks about the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.

So let's go back to this now and compare the seals with the trumpets and vials, bearing in mind the "noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image"

5th seal: The souls of the martyrs cry out from the altar and they are told to wait a little while till their full number of their brothers who are to be killed as they were, is complete.
5 trumpet: The bottomless pit (from which the bast ascends) is opened.
5th vial is poured out "upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

6th seal: there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.
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All men are trying to hide from the wrath of the Lamb.
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This suggests that He has now appeared in the clouds:

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Rev 1:7)

It also re-affirms what Jesus said during His Olivet Discourse:

Mat 24:29-31 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory."
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The above most certainly would cause all men to try to hide from the wrath of the Lamb.
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"And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Mat 24:31).

So that's the 6th seal.

The 6th trumpet talks about a massive army being released to kill 1/3 of the world's population.
The 6th vial talks about the beast gathering his armies for the battle of Armageddon.

The 7th seal seems to be telling us that the events of the trumpets will only take place after the 7th seal is opened - and yet the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl all mention "noises, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake"

* The 7th trumpet talks about the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.
* The 7th vial talks about the victory of Christ and His armies over the beast and his armies.

In typing out this post I answered my own question and confirmed your statement in another thread that trumpets and vials are not necessarily running parallel - but in the case of the 6th and 7th ones, they clearly are.

 

[Zao is life]

Blessed are they who die in the Lord from henceforth. Thier works do follow them.

Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."


Keep this verse in context of the previous verses.

Revelation 14:9 And a third angel followed them, calling out in a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Revelation 14:10 he too will drink the wine of God's anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Day and night there is no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, "Blessed are the dead--those who die in the Lord from this moment on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them."

I agree with you on the above.

I know nothing about the rest except what you have said. So I'm neither a disbeliever nor a believer at this stage about Israel being given a host and also about the second beast.

For more accurate timing of when these saints begin to die you would need to pay attention when the Gentiles arrive. The second beast.

Daniel 11:33 KJV: And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Israel will soon be given a host.

 

[Zao is life]

Because I don't live in Israel. I'm not Israeli.
Alot of people believe the little horn who kills the saints governs the entire world. I've learned the little horn governs a very little country in the pleasant land and does not govern the would. That's why he is described as little. Today he sits atop his seven hilled city he won by defeating three larger horns.

Alot of people have died in the last 2000 years who did not worship the beast or recieved his mark. They were never given the choice of laying down thier life for Christ just like me. They died of various things such as heart attacks or car accidents. It doesn't make them bad people if they do not take part in the first resurrection. It just means the first resurrection is for a specific group of people who have done something tremendous and are rewarded for thier deeds.

This came to me too within the past year. I don't believe in soul-sleep and I believe that if this is true, then most of those who have died in Christ we will remain resting in Christ, but there are some who will be bodily resurrected when Christ returns - however - the following does not imply that only some will be resurrected bodily when Christ returns, so it contradicts such a belief, and does not grant the liberty of the above private interpretation:

And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,

for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,

because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.
(1 Thess 4:13-18).

 

[BABerean2]

I don't believe in soul-sleep

The following verse kills the doctrine of "soul sleep".

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


.

 

[rwb]

I tend to disagree. And one reason why, take John the Baptist and Justin Martyr, for instance. Both were literally beheaded, but neither were beheaded because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image,etc. There was not yet a beast to worship or not worship at the time. There was not yet it's image to worship or not worship at the time. But there was such a thing as being martyred at the time for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God.

What I tend to think, the martyrs resting under the altar during the 5th seal are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God---and that their fellowservants who also are to be killed, are meaning these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

What I also tend to think, being beheaded can be applied both literally and non literally at the same time. In the case of someone such as John the Baptist and Justin Martyr, it is meaning literally. In the case of someone like Stephen, it is meaning non literally. Think about it, what does it mean to be beheaded? It means to be silenced, it means to no longer have ones voice heard on earth. And that's exactly what happened when they stoned Stephen, that from their perspective, they silenced him, they no longer had to listen to him.

One thing that some Amils need to keep in mind as well, since some Amils I have encountered in the past have claimed that when Stephen was stoned, it was because and during the time of the beast in Revelation 13, yet we are told the following which refutes that---Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Which period of time did Stephen live in? Obviously this period of time---and is not. No matter how one looks at it, until we enter this period of time---shall ascend out of the bottomless pit--there cannot yet be any martyrs who refuse to worship the beast, neither his image, neither have received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Until we enter that period of time we are still in this period of time---and is not. The question that begs an answer, which period of time are we currently living in, then?

You make an interesting observation David. If you notice of the souls under the altar it says "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." Notice they were not slain for their witness of Jesus like we find with the martyred of Rev 20 "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus". They may well have been beheaded, but it was not for their witness of Jesus, why?

I believe they were not witnesses of Jesus, because they lived and died before He came. We read of the Old Testament prophets being in fear of their lives many times in the Old Testament. Though they all foretell of A Messiah Who would come to save them, they did not literally witness of one they did not know, and had not lived to see. So they would not have claimed that Jesus is the One True God, and that apart from Him there is no salvation. This is what generally makes Christian martyrs.

And I agree with your understanding of martyrdom of those like Stephen. Though not literally beheaded, silencing one's voice is the goal, and death does that without losing ones head. I believe the time we are living in is determined by understanding the four horses being sent unto all the earth at the beginning of the New Covenant Gospel age. The four horses and their riders symbolize all that will come to pass during this Messianic age. In reality even from the beginning of creation. All one needs to do is read what these riders are sent to earth to accomplish, with the warnings given to the seven churches, and we are able to see the beast, false prophet, Satan etc, the whole demonic hosts, with Christ as conquering and to conquer are those accomplishing the purpose for which each horse and rider was sent from the beginning of this age.

Any way, good observations.

 

[Zao is life]

The following verse kills the doctrine of "soul sleep".
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
.

I agree.

Silohsfoal's post which I replied to did not mention soul-sleep or any belief in soul-sleep but I wanted to make sure I was understood before someone accuses me of believing in soul-sleep.

 

[claninja]

The people who were beheaded for thier witness of Jesus did not worship the beast or his image. These are not two separate peoples. If you knew who they were, you would have known that.

Based on the grammar of the sentence, there can be more than 1 group.

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

"those who" is a relative pronoun, meaning it points back to the antecedent "souls". Typically relative pronouns connect the dependent clause without a conjunction. Having no conjunction like "and" would provide more evidence if it were absolutely not 2 separate groups, but instead 1 group who was both simultaneously beheaded while they did not worship the beast nor received the mark. Having no conjunction would better demonstrate it as one particular group of souls:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

The addition of the conjunction "and" adds evidence that some of the souls that John saw had been beheaded while others had not worshipped the beast nor received its mark.

 

[claninja]

There is nothing in the above quotes which gives a valid reason for your misinterpretation of the verses.

I could say the same generic argument that you misinterpret the passage without providing any evidence. Please explain specifically how it is wrong to believe that when we are baptized into Christ's death, we are raised with Him to walk in a newness of life.

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

1. Jesus was raised bodily after His physical death.

I agree

2. The verses say nothing of a "spiritual resurrection".

I never said the verse stated "spiritual resurrection". The verse simply states that we are baptized in his death and also raised with him through faith.

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

So you mean the scriptures teach about a 2nd resurrection and a 3rd resurrection, etc?

No, scripture mentions 2 resurrection events:

1.) Jesus at his 1st advent

2.) The resurrection at his coming.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Based on the grammar of the sentence, there can be more than 1 group.

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

"those who" is a relative pronoun, meaning it points back to the antecedent "souls". Typically relative pronouns connect the dependent clause without a conjunction. Having no conjunction like "and" would provide more evidence if it were absolutely not 2 separate groups, but instead 1 group who was both simultaneously beheaded while they did not worship the beast nor received the mark. Having no conjunction would better demonstrate it as one particular group of souls:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

The addition of the conjunction "and" adds evidence that some of the souls that John saw had been beheaded while others had not worshipped the beast nor received its mark.

And can mean they both were killed for testifying of Christ and had not worshiped the beast.
Seeing I know who they are, I understand this is the case. They are killed for thier testimony and they had not worshiped the beast.

 

[Zao is life]

I could say the same generic argument that you misinterpret the passage without providing any evidence. Please explain specifically how it is wrong to believe that when we are baptized into Christ's death, we are raised with Him to walk in a newness of life.

I never said we are not raised with Him. I said He was raised bodily. How can we be raised with Him spiritually?

Oh, I know. We are not raised again with Him spiritually because we are born from above by the Spirit of Christ above, and so we are in Him and He in us, therefore we died with Him (who did not die spiritually, but bodily) and are raised again with Him (who did not rise again spiritually from "spiritual" death, but bodily, from physical death).

It's hard to understand when hanging onto a false doctrine called "spiritual resurrection" I know, but that's what scripture says - over and over and over again.

 

[rwb]

I never said we are not raised with Him. I said He was raised bodily. How can we be raised with Him spiritually?

Oh, I know. We are not raised again with Him spiritually because we are born from above by the Spirit of Christ above, and so we are in Him and He in us, therefore we died with Him (who did not die spiritually, but bodily) and are raised again with Him (who did not rise again spiritually from "spiritual" death, but bodily, from physical death).

It's hard to understand when hanging onto a false doctrine called "spiritual resurrection" I know, but that's what scripture says - over and over and over again.

We are raised with Christ spiritually through His Spirit in us. For it is the Spirit that gives life.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

[Zao is life]

We are raised with Christ spiritually through His Spirit in us. For it is the Spirit that gives life.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We are born spiritually from above by the Spirit that quickens.