Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Hammster]

You claim I didn't quote scripture. And then you quote what I quoted and directly contradict what it says, by saying it doesn't say what it says, verbatim.

The scripture clearly states that "all of us" - the new King James version translates it "as many of us" - "who have been baptized have been baptized into his death." And you say it doesn't say that, quoting it saying exactly that.

Did you even notice yourself doing that?

Here’s the NKJV.

“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
It also doesn’t say that as many of us as were baptized were baptized into His death.

 

[Hammster]

And your evidence is what, that he wasn't talking about baptism? What does he mean by water?


This coming from somebody who quotes a scripture and then boldly proclaims that it doesn't say the exact words it says.

I'm not reading anything new into the text.

My evidence is that He didn’t say He was talking about baptism.

 

[Al Touthentop]

There’s nothing in scripture that equates faith as thoughts in one’s head.

And if you read James in context, it’s clear he’s contrasting someone who really is saved with someone who just says he is.

context context context.

James says that a person can't even be saved through dead faith and then uses Abraham's obedience as an example.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James says that we're JUSTIFIED through our obedience, not through dead faith. If salvation is itself justification or if we're justified - saved "by faith" - then justification requires works. Not works "of the law," not works "of yourselves," but of the works God created us to walk in. His works. The works he commanded.

 

[Hammster]

That is exactly what it says. Word for word.

Romans 6
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? (NASB)

3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? (NKJV)

It says baptized into Christ Jesus.

Your argument is just for water baptism. You make what’s done to us into something we do by misreading the text.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Here’s the NKJV.

“Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
It also doesn’t say that as many of us as were baptized were baptized into His death.

You say it doesn't say exactly what it says. Help me understand what's going on here. Your claim that it doesn't say "as many of us as were baptized were baptized into His death" is a quote of what it says, word for word.

What am I missing?

 

[Al Touthentop]

It says baptized into Christ Jesus.

Your argument is just for water baptism. You make what’s done to us into something we do by misreading the text.

That's the only baptism there is available to us. He was talking about water baptism there. He would later say that there is only one baptism.

 

[Al Touthentop]

My evidence is that He didn’t say He was talking about baptism.

What does he mean by water?

 

[Hammster]

James says that a person can't even be saved through dead faith and then uses Abraham's obedience as an example.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

James says that we're JUSTIFIED through our obedience, not through dead faith. If salvation is itself justification or if we're justified - saved "by faith" - then justification requires works. Not works "of the law," not works "of yourselves," but of the works God created us to walk in. His works. The works he commanded.

There’s the very argument you are missing.

Once again, you make my point about cherry picking verses. You go from 14 to 24, and act as if the rest is meaningless.


What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
— James 2:14-23

Here’s the argument that James is making, which he will support with the verses that follow:

says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

What faith is he talking about? Said faith. It’s right there. And then he goes on to explain that just saying you have faith doesn’t make it so. If you have faith, works will follow.

 

[Hammster]

That's the only baptism there is available to us. He was talking about water baptism there. He would later say that there is only one baptism.

Where in Romans does he say that later?

 

[Al Touthentop]

What faith is he talking about? Said faith. It’s right there. And then he goes on to explain that just saying you have faith doesn’t make it so. If you have faith, works will follow.

He's talking about faith that is living. And he says that a dead faith cannot save anyone. So his context is not purely in the living faith of a person who has already been saved, but a person becoming saved in the first place. His context encompasses the entire gospel.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Where in Romans does he say that later?

So, are we to dismiss what he says in Ephesians?

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all.

 

[Hammster]

What does he mean by water?

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:25, ESV)

It’s why Jesus chastised Nicodemus. He should have known this since it was taught in the OT, he was an OT teacher.

 

[Hammster]

He's talking about faith that is living. And he says that a dead faith cannot save anyone. So his context is not purely in the living faith of a person who has already been saved, but a person becoming saved in the first place. His context encompasses the entire gospel.

I’ll stick with what he actually says, in context, and all of it.

 

[Hammster]

So, are we to dismiss what he says in Ephesians?

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in [c]you all.

I thought we were sticking with context.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I thought we were sticking with context.

We are. This IS in context. The scriptures harmonize, they do not fight each other.

 

[Hammster]

We are. This IS in context. The scriptures harmonize, they do not fight each other.

That’s not what context means. But it does explain some of your argumentation.

 

[Al Touthentop]

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36:25, ESV)

It’s why Jesus chastised Nicodemus. He should have known this since it was taught in the OT, he was an OT teacher.

Right. And he should have recognized Noah's ark as the archetype for Baptism as was also the parting of the Red Sea, as both Peter and Paul would write later. Water is water. You are actually pointing to the fact that water is important.

 

[Hammster]

Right. And he should have recognized Noah's ark as the archetype for Baptism as was also the parting of the Red Sea, as both Peter and Paul would write later. Water is water. You are actually pointing to the fact that water is important.

And in Ezekiel and in Genesis, it was God doing the work. Salvation is 100% of God, and trying to add works just cheapens it. Paul even said it was no gospel at all.

 

[Al Touthentop]

And in Ezekiel and in Genesis, it was God doing the work. Salvation is 100% of God, and trying to add works just cheapens it. Paul even said it was no gospel at all.

Salvation is 100% of God. Even the commands we obey, which includes baptism.

 

[Hammster]

Salvation is 100% of God. Even the commands we obey, which includes baptism.

Okay.