Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Al Touthentop]

Umm I think you have missed the objective definition of what Sub-biblical is...

Nope. What's not biblical is the doctrine of original sin. Ezekiel 18 by itself smashes that doctrine all to pieces.

Augustine based his theory on a faulty Latin text which rendered a couple of prepositions "in" rather than "because."

The Greek in Romans 5:12 clearly has Paul charging individuals who sin as being the cause of sin being propagated in the world, not some genetic mutation through "concupiscence."

You assert that men's teaching on this is more authoritative than scripture. I totally disagree. I don't find any reason to be ashamed of that.

 

[Hammster]

Nope. What's not biblical is the doctrine of original sin. Ezekiel 18 by itself smashes that doctrine all to pieces.

Augustine based his theory on a faulty Latin text which rendered a couple of prepositions "in" rather than "because."

The Greek in Romans 5:12 clearly has Paul charging individuals who sin as being the cause of sin being propagated in the world, not some genetic mutation through "concupiscence."

You assert that men's teaching on this is more authoritative than scripture. I totally disagree. I don't find any reason to be ashamed of that.

I reject, then, your understanding of Ezekiel 18, being that you’re just a man. In fact, I reject all of your teaching for that very reason.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I reject, then, your understanding of Ezekiel 18, being that you’re just a man. In fact, I reject all of your teaching for that very reason.

Good for you.

 

[Hammster]

Good for you.

Which means, basically, that you are wrong. That’s the take away if we are to adopt your logic.

 

[BBAS 64]

Nope. What's not biblical is the doctrine of original sin. Ezekiel 18 by itself smashes that doctrine all to pieces.

Augustine based his theory on a faulty Latin text which rendered a couple of prepositions "in" rather than "because."

The Greek in Romans 5:12 clearly has Paul charging individuals who sin as being the cause of sin being propagated in the world, not some genetic mutation through "concupiscence."

You assert that men's teaching on this is more authoritative than scripture. I totally disagree. I don't find any reason to be ashamed of that.

Good Day, Al

Are you a credentialed Latin translator from NT greek?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Yesha]

One text regarding saving faith comes to mind in the first chapter of Philippians, wherein Paul and Timotheus address the saints of Philippi. In the closing of the first chapter, Paul provides assurance to the Philippians in that their believing in Christ, which has been granted to them on behalf of the Son, is wed inextricably to suffering for his sake.

Philippians 1:1-2, 29-30 (ESV)

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, engaged in the same conflict that you saw I had and now hear that I still have.​

If saving faith is a gift from God, it follows that it cannot be the result of the efforts of man outside of the grace of God, a grace which he bestows upon his elect. In his epistle to the Ephesians, Paul explains that God in his love for the Ephesian saints, made them alive with Christ while they were dead, the act of regeneration. He then closes by reiterating that the redemptive work of God, salvation by grace through faith, is altogether given by God.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (ESV)

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

Faith is thus an instrument of our salvation and is given by God to his elect for this purpose. While there may be a logical order to the regeneration-faith relationship, perhaps it is more useful to see the bigger picture, which is that God has decreed the salvation of a particular people along with the means of their salvation. The Westminster Divines express this well:

Sum of Saving Knowledge, Head IV

[...]by the power of his Spirit, he applies unto the elect, effectually, all saving graces purchased to them in the covenant of redemption, and maketh a change in their persons. In particular, 1. He doth convert or regenerate them, by giving spiritual life to them, in opening their understandings, renewing their wills, affections, and faculties, for giving spiritual obedience to his commands. 2. He gives them saving faith, by making them, in the sense of deserved condemnation, to give their consent heartily to the covenant of grace, and to embrace Jesus Christ unfeignedly. 3. He gives them repentance, by making them, with godly sorrow, in the hatred of sin, and love of righteousness, turn from all iniquity to the service of God. And 4. He sanctifies them, by making them go on and persevere in faith and spiritual obedience to the law of God, manifested by fruitfulness in all duties, and doing good works, as God offereth occasion.​

Westminster Assembly. (1851). The Westminster Confession of Faith: Edinburgh Edition (p. 435). Philadelphia: William S. Young.​

 

[Al Touthentop]

Good Day, Al

Are you a credentialed Latin translator from NT greek?

In Him,

Bill

And this would be relevant because? Are you? You know Augustine certainly wasn't right?

Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle Wisdom

 

[Hammster]

And this would be relevant because? Are you? You know Augustine certainly wasn't right?

Augustine's mistake about original sin - Gentle Wisdom

Why do you trust this author? It’s just another man’s teaching.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Why do you trust this author? It’s just another man’s teaching.

I didn't say I trusted the author. I trust God. It's just a pretty good explanation of the problem with the text Augustine used. The Greek scholars of the time were quick to point out Augustine's error. Augustine couldn't read the Greek.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't say I trusted the author. I trust God. It's just a pretty good explanation of the problem with the text Augustine used. The Greek scholars of the time were quick to point out Augustine's error. Augustine couldn't read the Greek.

How do you know God inspired that author?

 

[Al Touthentop]

How do you know God inspired that author?

I don't think he did. Why are you asking that question?

 

[Al Touthentop]

One text regarding saving faith comes to mind in the first chapter of Philippians, wherein Paul and Timotheus address the saints of Philippi. In the closing of the first chapter, Paul provides assurance to the Philippians in that their believing in Christ, which has been granted to them on behalf of the Son, is wed inextricably to suffering for his sake.


If saving faith is a gift from God, it follows that it cannot be the result of the efforts of man outside of the grace of God, a grace which he bestows upon his elect. In his epistle to the Ephesians, Paul explains that God in his love for the Ephesian saints, made them alive with Christ while they were dead, the act of regeneration. He then closes by reiterating that the redemptive work of God, salvation by grace through faith, is altogether given by God.

But he's not talking about the belief inside their head, but "the faith" - the gospel. Clearly that's from God. Our own personal belief is not forced on us. We were given the gospel message and all of its instructions. That's from God. Our reaction to it is ours alone.

 

[Hammster]

I don't think he did. Why are you asking that question?

Because it’s not that you don’t follow the teaching of men. You do. You just chose which ones to follow.

 

[Hammster]

But he's not talking about the belief inside their head, but "the faith" - the gospel. Clearly that's from God. Our own personal belief is not forced on us. We were given the gospel message and all of its instructions. That's from God. Our reaction to it is ours alone.

Pelagianism.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Pelagianism.

Wrong.

 

[Hammster]

Wrong.

Right

Pelagianism, also called the Pelagian heresy, is the Christian theological position that the original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid or assistance.

 

[Gup20]

He's saying that baptism in water IS our spiritual rebirth. He doesn't talk about two separate things, he's connected them together. Just like Peter tells us in his first letter that baptism is not fleshly and that it "now saves us." From what? Our past sins. Baptism is our rebirth, our resurrection from the dead man of sin that once was. The spirit is connected with this. It seals us and marks us for redemption as Paul explains in Ephesians 1. And the water and the spirit and the blood testify as one that we are Christ's as John explains in his first letter. The proof that we are Christ's is our baptism.

If baptism is circumcision, as you claim, and if baptism is the seal, as you claim, you you must necessarily acknowledge that neither spiritual nor water baptism are required for salvation, but come AFTER one is made rightous for their faith.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Rom 4:9-11 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,​

Abraham was made righteous for his faith PRIOR to the sealing specifically WHILE UNCIRCUMCISED. The Holy Spirit indwells AFTER one has believed and been made righteous. Therefore, either you are not correct about circumcision and indwelling being baptism, or baptism is not required for salvation (being made righteous).

 

[Al Touthentop]

Right

Pelagianism, also called the Pelagian heresy, is the Christian theological position that the original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid or assistance.

Wrong. I don't know everything this man taught and don't care. He could be right about several things and wrong about others. Original sin can't be found in scripture. It is because of that that I reject original sin, not because somebody named Pelagius taught it. Authority comes from the bible.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Because it’s not that you don’t follow the teaching of men. You do. You just chose which ones to follow.

I follow the teaching of men who wrote the bible Guided by God's Holy Spirit. I do not follow the teaching of men who are outside that group except by coincidence.

 

[Gup20]

Right

Pelagianism, also called the Pelagian heresy, is the Christian theological position that the original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid or assistance.

Lets all read this together:

[Gen 3:22 NASB] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--​

Those of the Calvinist persuasion would like for this to not be true, but it is true. Man is capable of both good and evil.

[Rom 2:14-15 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

The truth is that the unsaved know good and not just evil, and have God's good law written on their hearts, their conscience either accusing or defending them.

The verse that Calvinists use to justify the anti-Biblical view of "total depravity" is Romans 8:7:

[Rom 8:7 NASB] 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,]​

But this is a verse taken out of context.

[Rom 8:5-6 NASB] 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,​

If you set your mind on the things of the flesh you are not able to do good. But, if you set your mind on the things of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, etc), you ARE able to do them because we were given the capability of knowing (setting our minds on) good and evil.

It should be obvious that Adam, prior to having a sin nature, was capable of sinning, just like we, post sin and the fall, are capable of going against our dominant nature to set our minds (though briefly) on good.

This passage in Romans 8 is directed at believers who, filled with the Holy Spirit are even still capable of setting their minds on the things of the flesh. Paul himself said,

[Rom 7:18-21 NASB] 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good [is] not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.​

So even Paul couldn't continually set his mind on the spirit. It was a continual choice of which nature to follow. A war of the mind. Interestingly, Paul is advocating for identifying his "true self" as the one who wants to do good, and his "false self" as the one who wants to do bad. This is why our identity and how we identify perceive ourselves is so critical. Our perceived identity is the first step in setting our minds on the things of the spirit. If the calvinist position was correct, then Paul would have no choice but to follow the sovereign God's will for his life and obey his new, dominant nature. The notion that one cannot violate their dominant nature is the underlying presupposition of total depravity.