The mind set on the flesh

[zoidar]

If God only wants saved folk to live holy lives, what does He want for the rest of the world?

Of course God wants all people to live holy lives, all people are just not chosen for it.

 

[HopeSings]

The flesh sets its mind on political division which doesn't obey Romans chapter 13 or Titus 3.

 

[John Mullally]

If God only wants saved folk to live holy lives, what does He want for the rest of the world?

As you said in Post 334, God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30) and that is because God who is Love (1 John 4:8) wants even the unsaved to turn and be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, Ezekiel 33:11).

Jesus sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him, but just because I don’t believe that He forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. I believe that God wants everyone to be saved freely.

Jesus “takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), thus making the atonement available to all, but it will not be applied to you, me or our neighbor if we don’t look to Christ, just like Jesus illustrated at John 3:14/Numbers 21:6-9. His atonement is designed to only apply to those who believe in Him, and if you, me or our neighbor refuse God, then we will perish despite what would have saved us, just like Jesus illustrated at John 3:14/Numbers 21:6-9. No one in Hell can be told: “You had to be there. You had no Savior’s love or atonement for forgiveness, but were born helpless and hopeless due to a cruel, malicious God.” Instead, they’ll be told: “Thou fool! For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.”

 

[Hammster]

Of course God wants all people to live holy lives, all people are just not chosen for it.

Everyone is called to live a holy life.

We know God wants all people to live holy lives because all men are called to live holy lives. Sin is man not doing that.

 

[John Mullally]

We know God wants all people to live holy lives because all men are called to live holy lives. Sin is man not doing that.

Agree. And since God desires that men live holy, He is working to that end through the preaching of the Gospel - which is the power of God to salvation to those who believe it (Romans 1:16). But God is not a forcer (Deuteronomy 30:15-16) - He does not force anyone to believe the Gospel. Faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and we all choose what we listen to.

 

[zoidar]

We know God wants all people to live holy lives because all men are called to live holy lives. Sin is man not doing that.

I can say I agree! But would you then say all people are elect for a holy life? No? So we need explain what we mean by "called". From my understanding only believers are elect for living a holy life.

For it is God’s will that you should be holy: You must abstain from sexual immorality; each of you must know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God; and no one should ever violate or exploit his brother in this regard, because the Lord will avenge all such acts, as we have already told you and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us to impurity, but to holiness.
- Berean Standard Bible (1 Thess 3-7)

 

[Hammster]

Agree. And since God desires that men live holy, He is working to that end through the preaching of the Gospel - which is the power of God to salvation to those who believe it (Romans 1:16). But God is not a forcer (Deuteronomy 30:15-16) - He does not force anyone to believe the Gospel. Faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and we all choose what we listen to.

I don’t know any theology which states that God forced anyone to believe the gospel. So on that we agree.

 

[Hammster]

I can say I agree! But would you then say all people are elect for a holy life? No? So we need explain what we mean by "called". From my understanding only believers are elect for living a holy life.

For it is God’s will that you should be holy: You must abstain from sexual immorality; each of you must know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God; and no one should ever violate or exploit his brother in this regard, because the Lord will avenge all such acts, as we have already told you and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us to impurit, but to holiness.
- Berean Standard Bible (1 Thess 3-7)

Who is “us”?

 

[John Mullally]

I don’t know any theology which states that God forced anyone to believe the gospel. So on that we agree.

I agree that God does not force anyone to believe the Gospel, Although the Calvinist doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" does such. Anything that is irresistible cannot be resisted - it is forced.

In Calvinism, everyone who will ever become saved is already predetermined from eternity past, and those individuals comprising such a preselected saved-class are called “the elect,” or what non-Calvinists often refer to as “Calvinism’s elect” because many non-Calvinists believe that the real New Testament “elect” are simply Christians, that is, believers in Christ whom God has chosen to save—not unbelievers God has chosen to make into believers. So, that brings us to the Calvinist doctrine of Irresistible Grace. “Irresistible Grace” is a necessary component to Calvinism’s doctrine of “Unconditional Election,” because if someone is preselected to someday become a believer, then something needs to happen in order to guarantee that a member of Calvinism’s elect does in fact become a believer. An irresistible grace is what makes that happen. However, Calvinists typically don’t use the term “Irresistible Grace.” Often, instead, they use different terms such as Pre-Faith Regeneration, Effectual Grace, Efficacious Grace, Radical Grace, Powerful Grace, Scandalous Grace, ect.

 

[zoidar]

Who is “us”?

Believers, the elect, those Paul writes to, including himself.

 

[Hammster]

Although the Calvinist doctrine of "Irresistible Grace" does such.

Since you don’t understand Reformed Theology, I’m not sure why I would continue this discussion unless you are interested in learning.

 

[Hammster]

Believers, the elect, those Paul writes to, including himself.

Right. The elect.

 

[John Mullally]

Since you don’t understand Reformed Theology,

I understand Calvinism - as I commonly make my points from John Calvin's writings. I have yet to hear a Calvinist on these forums quote Calvin. I assume that is because he made many troubling statements that his supporters don't want to defend.

I’m not sure why I would continue this discussion unless you are interested in learning.

Suit yourself - I reject Calvinism.

According to Calvin, people act in the manner which God predestined, and God judges them for that action (reference quotes from Calvin below). How is it just to judge someone for doing that which they cannot avoid doing?

Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)​

​

“Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 1)​

​

The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordaining but he falls by his own fault. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 8)​

​

On the one hand Calvin wants to say that God’s will of decree regulates, turns and infallibly controls the thoughts and actions of every person. But on the other hand Calvin wants to preserve human accountability in making choices, so he asserts that God does not force his will of decree on anyone. How does God accomplish this? Calvin never tells us. Instead he appeals to unexplainable mystery seen in his cloaked phrase “wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men…” This is theological gobbledegook in its highest form.

If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will. (John Calvin, Commentary on Isaiah 10:15).​

 

[Hammster]

I understand Calvinism - as I commonly make my points from John Calvin's writings.

Your statement about God forcing people to love His says otherwise. There’s no teaching in Reformed Theology that supports that.

I have yet to hear a Calvinist on these forums quote Calvin. I assume that is because he made many troubling statements that his supporters don't want to defend.

I can’t speak for others. I don’t quote Calvin, or any other Reformers.

Just a point of fact. This thread is on its 18th page. The discussion has largely been between Zoidar and myself. Not once has he ever mentioned Calvinism. Neither have I. We just discuss the scripture. I’m not sure why, in every discussion we have, you feel the need to bring it up in a disparaging way. It would be better, as far as I’m concerned, to just let your arguments stand on their own. But that’s just me.

 

[zoidar]

Your statement about God forcing people to love His says otherwise. There’s no teaching in Reformed Theology that supports that.

I can’t speak for others. I don’t quote Calvin, or any other Reformers.

Just a point of fact. This thread is on its 18th page. The discussion has largely been between Zoidar and myself. Not once has he ever mentioned Calvinism. Neither have I. We just discuss the scripture. I’m not sure why, in every discussion we have, you feel the need to bring it up in a disparaging way. It would be better, as far as I’m concerned, to just let your arguments stand on their own. But that’s just me.

I prefer discussing over debating. Somewhere in all this we are to grow and hopefully learn more things about the Bible.

 

[John Mullally]

I prefer discussing over debating. Somewhere in all this we are to grow and hopefully learn more things about the Bible.

All my Christian mentors have been disparaged by Calvinists. My gift is in logic, so I engage Calvinist's on scripture and what Calvin wrote. I must be hitting a nerve as I don't get many responses other than telling me I am ignorant and offensive.

 

[zoidar]

All my Christian mentors have been disparaged by Calvinists. My gift is in logic, so I engage them on what they view as their own turf.

I see! I was threatened by Calvinistic teaching in the past. The more I learned about Calvinism and saw the to me obvious flaws the threat disappeared, and I got more relaxed discussing with Calvinistis. It's when it comes to those areas where I'm not that confident I tend to get more irritated and aggressive. It's not always that we need to win an argument, but just make good points to sow a seed. My focus is not that much to directly change people, but more to show the views of majority of Christians which goes against Calvinism is logically coherent and well established in Scripture.

 

[John Mullally]

I see! I was threatened by Calvinistic teaching in the past. The more I learned about Calvinism and saw the to me obvious flaws the threat disappeared, and I got more relaxed discussing with Calvinistis. It's when it comes to those areas where I'm not that confident I tend to get more irritated and aggressive. It's not always that we need to win an argument, but just make good points to sow a seed. My focus is not that much to directly change people, but more to show the views of majority of Christians which goes against Calvinism is logically coherent and well established in Scripture.

Thank you. I see where you are. I am tired of being on the defense when I know that the Theology of our aggressive opponent (remember you also felt threatened) is weak - so I show its failings (2 Corinthians 10:5).

 

[Hammster]

Thank you. I see where you are. I am tired of being on the defense when I know that the Theology of our aggressive opponent (remember you also felt threatened) is weak - so I show its failings (2 Corinthians 10:5).

Then here’s a perfect opportunity for you.

The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

Let me start by saying that this is a Soteriology thread. The challenge presented will stay within that realm. I have noticed lately that there have been what I would consider strawman arguments against reformed theology, or if you’d prefer Calvinism. Understandably, when people present these...

www.christianforums.com

 

[John Mullally]

Then here’s a perfect opportunity for you.

The New and Improved No-Straw-Man Challenge

Let me start by saying that this is a Soteriology thread. The challenge presented will stay within that realm. I have noticed lately that there have been what I would consider strawman arguments against reformed theology, or if you’d prefer Calvinism. Understandably, when people present these...

www.christianforums.com

My recent arguments are based on quotes from John Calvin, and yet you term that as crafting a straw man and not understanding Calvinism. Let the readers decide based upon what Calvin wrote.