Really? No threads about the Gillette ad yet?

[SummerMadness]

Of course it is...the guy breaking up the fight was portrayed as the "outlier" among a see of neanderthals standing around with their arms folded, all with the same dumb look on their face.

Agreed...but the implication of that very premise is that men currently aren't doing a good job of speaking up...or the ones that do are in the minority, a tiny beacon among as sea of "toxic masculinity"

See the picture above.

Now, if the scene had been 2-3 guys cheering on the kids fighting, and 4-5 breaking it up and saying "c'mon, find some other way to play...that's not how you treat people" then it wouldn't have been a problem.

The idea conveyed was "see, <most men who are bad and don't help>, be like the 10% that do!"

You're reading way too much into a shot done for dramatic effect. The commercial is not saying all men are bed as much as they are pointing out the power of an individual that stands up. That is kind of lost when you have half the men run into to stop the fight.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You're reading way too much into a shot done for dramatic effect. The commercial is not saying all men are bed as much as they are pointing out the power of an individual that stands up. That is kind of lost when you have half the men run into to stop the fight.

...if conveying the ratio accurately causes "the message to be lost", then what does that say about the message?

Clearly the message was "this is such a huge issue that's gotten so bad that we, as a razor company, have to speak up in an ad".

Apparently, since they had to exaggerate for effect, they realize that "2 out of every 10 guys being idiots who need to update their social views" doesn't qualify as being "a crisis of toxic masculinity"

If depicting reality conflicts with a message they're trying to convey, then that should be a red flag about the message.

 

[SummerMadness]

...if conveying the ratio accurately causes "the message to be lost", then what does that say about the message?

Clearly the message was "this is such a huge issue that's gotten so bad that we, as a razor company, have to speak up in an ad".

Apparently, since they had to exaggerate for effect, they realize that "2 out of every 10 guys being idiots who need to update their social views" doesn't qualify as being "a crisis of toxic masculinity"

If depicting reality conflicts with a message they're trying to convey, then that should be a red flag about the message.

That's another specious argument. The ad is meant to speak to an individual, not convey ratios. Again, the ad is showing how one person can do something, which is lost when you have a team of people working together. The ad is not about teamwork, it is about what you can do as an individual. You're complaining about something that is not even communicated, reading into something that is not there (i.e., a survey of the percentage of men that believe a certain thing). Again, there is certain sense of irony when one of your complaints is that people are reading too much into the behavior of men catcalling.

 

[Paidiske]

Saying "C'mon smile" or "Nice!" when a woman walks by is hardly a "comment of a sexual nature"

"C'mon smile" says: I get to tell you what to do with your body. "Nice!" is directly a comment on her body. Both are a power play with sexual overtones.

With these non-definitive concepts like "I find XYZ harassing" or "I think behavior XYZ is toxic". It's not so much that those concepts exists, but that a certain faction/group/etc... feels as if they get to decide where everyone else should set the bar...and it's always 100% driven by where they (and their social groups) set the bar.

I get to set my bar. You get to set your bar. The problem is that often when women set their bar, men just ignore it...

 

[A_Thinker]

The terms is tongue in cheek to define people who are over-the-top PC and find reasons to get offended about everything.

Legitimate activists for social justice are a-ok in my book.

For instance, Rosa Parks get's my respect

Leaders of the women's' suffrage movement get my respect

People who fought for marriage equality get my respect


These folks do not:
View attachment 249551


This meme kind of describes my view with regards to making the distinction between the stereotypical "social justice warrior" and a social justice activist.

View attachment 249552

So ... the Social Justice Warrior designation is really extreme enough to be considered satire/propaganda ...

Either the designation is a caricature ... or nobody would listen to the designee anyway ...

 

[iluvatar5150]

...if conveying the ratio accurately causes "the message to be lost", then what does that say about the message?

Clearly the message was "this is such a huge issue that's gotten so bad that we, as a razor company, have to speak up in an ad".

Apparently, since they had to exaggerate for effect, they realize that "2 out of every 10 guys being idiots who need to update their social views" doesn't qualify as being "a crisis of toxic masculinity"

If depicting reality conflicts with a message they're trying to convey, then that should be a red flag about the message.

To build on @SummerMadness' comments, even assuming the truly bad guys are in the minority of all men (I have no idea what the actual numbers are), it's quite easy for a bad, yet forceful minority of any group to dominate and even guide the group's behaviors while the good ones quietly acquiesce, look the other way, or don't speak up out of fear of retribution. Not only can one person standing up in the face of what they perceive to be a majority make a difference (and I would argue that that bbq shot was more about the perspective of the person who intervened than the reality of the situation), that person may actually find that they have more folks on their side than they realized.

 

[A_Thinker]

"C'mon smile" says: I get to tell you what to do with your body. "Nice!" is directly a comment on her body. Both are a power play with sexual overtones.

Smiles are a benefit for the observer, not the person being observed.

There is a sense that some feel that women have a responsibility for being generally attractive to men ...

 

[Foxfyre]

In certain places, women can’t leave the house without being catcalled or constantly approached. I’m very good at “handling” it, but why did I have to go through that every day in my 20’s living in Florida?

I don't know how old you are. I had to deal with quite a bit of sexism in my 20's, but I took it as a challenge and managed to get around it. I don't know how guys were in Florida, but catcalls to women were not common among the men of west Texas and New Mexico were i did all of my growing up.

Much more common were men who rose when a woman entered a room, who opened doors, including car doors, for her, who helped her with her coat, who carried her books or luggage or whatever, and held her chair when she was seated at a table. Now such mannerly formalities are not common and/or are considered politically incorrect and/or demeaning to women.

Far more demeaning to women in my world is the assumption that women are too weak and fragile and unable to handle the occasional smart aleck remark or ordinary 'guy banter' and that men are required to walk on eggs around the women in their work place or social circle.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Smiles are a benefit for the observer, not the person being observed.

There is a sense that some feel that women have a responsibility for being generally attractive to men ...

...but that sense exists going in the other direction as well.

Lest we not forget, the term "Dad Bod" was coined by college girls to describe guys who "aren't quite in shape".

Male eating disorders are just as common as female ones as a result of needing to look a certain way, but it doesn't get the same label as it's viewed as some sort of dietary/workout regimen when guys do it.

There are simply double-standards that exist. The issue is (at the risk of sounding like an old man even though I'm only in my mid-upper 30's), you have a faction of millennials who selectively choose when double-standards are acceptable, based on which group has been historically in a position of privilege.

Almost like a game where, in order to decide whose side to take, we tally up their "victimization merit badges", and whoever as the most wins.

Thus the reason why if you ask most of them "are racial & gender quotas okay in schools and workplaces", they'll say absolutely... and ideas like like Norway's "Board-level gender quotas" get their support and they say we should do things like that here.

But, if someone were to say "there's too many women on this board of directors, we need to fire a few of them and get some men in there so that it's a 50/50 split", it would immediately be decried as "patriarchy running wild" and "Misogyny off the scale" and "see, men just can't handle it when women are in the position of power".

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I get to set my bar. You get to set your bar. The problem is that often when women set their bar, men just ignore it...

Define "often"...

With regards to who gets to set what bar, while reasonable people can agree to disagree. You have a wave of far-left millennials who don't see it that way. They see it as "you agree that the bar should be where I say it should be (based on something they learned in a <insert demographic here> studies class), or you're a non-'woke' bigot who's holding society back!.

Like I touched on, there are numerous double-standards with regards to attitudes and the media, but they let those slide because, since men have historically been in a position of privilege, it's okay to portray them negatively.


This commercial for instance:

...if the genders were reversed, you know that college-aged "far-left" would be furious and claiming "it's reducing a woman to her looks by making it seem funny that a person's worth of being noticed is based on their looks"



...or take a look at some of these ads and imagine the roles reversed:

If there were lines like "So easy, a woman could even do it" or a man, joking with another man about "are you sure my wife will be able to figure out how to use it????" while she's fumbling trying to figure out how to use the recliner.

What do you think the reaction would be?

The people who see themselves as the arbiters of where the bar gets set (18-30 far left progressives...and I say "far" left, because I consider myself left of center on most things and they don't represent me), have already demonstrated their lack of consistency by getting over-outraged with certain things, and conspicuously unconcerned when those same things happen to people who aren't in one of "the groups we deem worthy of our concern".


That's why they're calling to boycott a song from the 1940's and acting as if it's some sort of "rape anthem"...yet, I don't recall them ever trying to boycott the movie "White Men Can't Jump". I recall them lashing about about Pam Geller's "Draw Muhammed" contest as being Islamaphobic (and for the record, I do think it was"...yet, not a peep about the play "The Book of Mormon" by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

Why do you suppose that is?

 

[SummerMadness]

Male eating disorders are just as common as female ones as a result of needing to look a certain way, but it doesn't get the same label as it's viewed as some sort of dietary/workout regimen when guys do it.

Male eating disorders are not ignored. And quite frankly, if we're talking about men having to achieve unattainable body images, who is responsible for promoting that body image? The reason why such issues are not discussed is more on account of toxic masculinity than women promoting it.

 

[SummerMadness]

For all the claims that issues men face are ignored, I stumbled on this article published yesterday.

The Body Shaming That Haunts Young Boys

The locker room at my gym is an anthropological world of wonders. Inside, you’ll find every type of body imaginable on display in its full glory. There are older sagging bodies, young and toned ones, and everything in between.

In the adult world, men’s bodies go largely unremarked upon, age and maturity having given most of us a certain comfort level with the skin we inhabit and an understanding of the boundaries of personal space. But in high school and college locker rooms, there’s no flaw or irregularity that can’t be exaggerated into a joke or a put-down. The weak bodies are called out, the less-developed muscles are laughed at, and for the most part, boys and young men all go along with it. It’s just how things are. It was the case when I was young, and based on my interviews with several young men, it’s no less true now.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course.



Given the reasons I cited - that just about every woman has been threatened, groped, followed by men when out and about in public - then yes, I think it's reasonable.

I'm going to ignore the word "threatened" there...because that's in no way unique to women and frankly, I'd be surprised if women are threatened with violence more than men.

That said, I'm going to need some statistics on "following" and "groping" because when I look at things like domestic violence or rape...we aren't talking about "most women".

I don't believe I made a blanket condemnation. I believe that I did indicate that for many women, this kind of behaviour is unwelcome and frightening.

Who cares? I don't mean to sound insensitive...but if we're talking about "how men should act" why would we care that some women find certain behaviors "unwelcome"? If we told people not to do things that "some people find unwelcome"....we'd be telling people not to do anything.

There is a link.

Ok.

I've done a lot of work in primary prevention of domestic violence. Almost all men who commit domestic violence have three things in common; they believe themselves superior to women with a right to control women (a belief in gender hierarchy), they find violence acceptable, and they hold to fairly rigid gender roles/stereotypes. So primary prevention aims at breaking down those beliefs and attitudes which - in the minds of these men - legitimate their actions.

I'd say that's a perfect example of "toxic masculinity."

Does your group ever examine why women keep involving themselves with these men? If you're interested in preventing these things from ever happening....seems like getting women to avoid these men to begin with would be a lot easier than changing the masculinity traits of these men.

I can't speak to American statistics, because our cultural situation is very different here.

Is it?

But I think it is quite plausible that different cultures might have more or less toxic ideas about masculinity. That's cultural, and changeable, it's not innate and it's not directly related to race.

So you're saying that black and hispanic male cultures have more "toxic masculinity" than whites?

Perhaps you're not aware of this because of our cultural differences....but liberals here in the US frown on any examination of "black culture" from whites as an explanation of anything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it of course, but be prepared to be labeled a racist for it.

Possibly. It all depends. But I do find yelling particularly intimidating; again, it's a display of power.

You don't get it at all.

Since I was a teenager, I've been followed, threatened, yelled at, harassed, etc etc etc routinely. I can't just walk wherever I want in safety. This is true for just about all women.

We know we're not safe. We know women get killed coming home from the train, or in a park, or whatever. We know we get hit. Raped. All the rest. This story is about a woman raped and murdered in my city only days ago. https://www.theage.com.au/national/...-murder-of-aiia-maasarwe-20190119-p50sd6.html

The constant risk of this is the fabric of our daily lives. Where will I park, where will I walk, how will I get there, who will I go with, so that I can maybe feel a little more safe?

So when some entitled man thinks he has the right to touch, to follow, to yell, to make objectifying comments, yes I perceive that as a threat. Because the reality is, I'm at risk.

Now the 6'3" guy can approach me in a way that's not threatening. Of course he can. But it's probably not going to be by following me down the street!

Let's talk about your way of approaching this topic....I've been hinting at it, but I'm just going to say it bluntly now.

Your personal experiences/preferences don't matter.

We're talking about how men act towards women. If we're going to talk about men as a general group....and women as a general group....your personal feelings don't matter.

Why? Obviously, no man can be expected to know your personal feelings regarding how you think they should behave. More importantly though, your personal experiences don't reflect those of all women. The idea that all women are walking around as scared and timid as you....is frankly very silly.

I'm not saying that you don't have anything to add to the discussion. I'm saying that when you say "I've felt this way....therefore so have most women" is a worthless argument.

Beg to differ... no, it's not all men, but just about every single woman has experienced that kind of bad behaviour.

Prove it.

Like I said, this pervasive threat is part of the fabric of our lives.

Your life...not every or even most women's.

If just about every man had that kind of experience of women, we'd have similar reason for that kind of conversation.

What makes you think they don't? You think most men haven't been rejected by a woman who seemed to be more interested in how much money they made? Do you think most men haven't treated as a means to some material possession by a woman whether it's a drink at a bar or a new pair of shoes?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Actually, lots of protests ... by, perhaps, inexperienced protesters. I've protested/boycotted certain establishments for years. I'm pretty sure that they didn't notice ...

And how did that work out for you?

I bet you made as much change with your protest as ole Colin did.

Protesters often change strategies. MLK did, as well ...

Did he ever change strategies because no one noticed he was protesting?

 

[Ana the Ist]

cat calling
noun a shrill whistle or shout of disapproval, typically one made at a public meeting or performance. • a loud whistle or a comment of a sexual nature made by a man to a passing woman.
verb [no object] make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by: they were fired for catcalling at women.





No. No it can't.

Maybe you're late to the thread so you haven't noticed....but no one is holding to this definition.

We have posters who included stalking, sexual assault, and sexual and physical violence to the discussion....so the singling me out for including the other end of the spectrum seems extremely dishonest of you.

Like I said though...maybe you're late to the discussion and didn't see what all those other posters wrote....so I'll forgive you for this mistake.

 

[bèlla]

But, if someone were to say "there's too many women on this board of directors, we need to fire a few of them and get some men in there so that it's a 50/50 split", it would immediately be decried as "patriarchy running wild" and "Misogyny off the scale" and "see, men just can't handle it when women are in the position of power".

BRAVO! Well said.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would agree with that statement...which is why I'm not crazy about the ad.

If something's not automatically wrong, then it doesn't require a cultural mandate that "if you're a 'good' man, the expectation is you should step in to stop other men from doing it, and openly admit that it's the result of a culture of toxic masculinity"


If the actions being depicted were ones that fell in the category of "automatically wrong", then I'd have no problem it.

Exactly....either we are talking about a behavior that should be universally condemned or not.

One can't expect others to hold to their personal expectations of "good behavior".

 

[Ana the Ist]

"C'mon, smile" is harassment. Why the everloving f should women ever be commanded to do anything by a stranger on the street. The idea that a man should think that's perfectly OK is toxic.

*says the woman who is very content with her resting b face, thank you very much, and doesn't think anyone should be commenting on her appearance or demeanor when minding her own business. Stop interrupting women.

Oh ok...so you did see how everyone expanded on the discussion of catcalling.

I guess we can just ignore your previous post then.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Chris Rock has a bit about how every nice thing a guy does for a woman is a sexual advance. "Let me get that door for you... how about some [explitive deleted]?". The problem with what you just said though is that no one said guys shouldn't try to sleep with women, you were responding to a conversation about the definition of catcalling, and people have been saying catcalling is wrong because it invokes a negative emotional response. You can't extrapolate that to say people are against all sexual advances.

A woman feeling intimidated in a catcalling situation is just a conditioned response to people hollering at her. It doesn't matter if you're the sweetest guy in the world, and the words you choose are completely innocuous. So many ladies have had so many negative experiences with guys shouting at them on the street that the underlying similarities in all catcalling situations cause the same negative reaction.

One of the oldest experiments in behavioral psychology was a group of guys making some poor little orphan afraid of a bunny rabbit. They gave him a fluffy white bunny, startled the bejeebers out of him, and then he was afraid of bunnies. But that's not all. They found out he was afraid of all white fluffy things. One of the psychologists put on a Santa beard, and he was terrified of that. Sadly, the first kid they traumatized was adopted before they "fixed" him, so he was screwed up for life. But they were able to reverse it on a later kid.

The moral of that story is that any situation involving a strange man suddenly talking to a woman in public is going to invoke that negative emotional response from all the times that someone was being a jerk about it. It doesn't matter that most men are nice fellows. There are enough men that aren't nice fellows out there to have created this negative emotional response in the vast majority of women.

And sure, it may be irrational to feel afraid in those situations because they very rarely lead to actual physical violence, but that doesn't matter. It's likely that ladies will feel afraid, irrationally or no, so don't do things that will likely make ladies feel afraid. I tell all sorts of jokes, even really dark humor. But I don't just blurt out rape jokes to just anyone, even though there's zero risk of being raped by me, it's still going to invoke a negative emotional response in a lot of people.

But you realize that not every woman has the same response to catcalling?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just in case anyone doesn't realize this....

I’m a proud feminist, but sometimes I love getting catcalled

Yes, some women enjoy being catcalled. This article is written by a feminist...who is, more or less, feeling guilty about enjoying it (because she knows some women hate it) and how some of her feminist friends also admitted to enjoying it.

An excerpt...

"They strongly expressed their opinions that there was nothing wrong with being a feminist who enjoys being catcalled.

Some of my other friends sympathized with me, saying they also felt guilty when they enjoyed being catcalled; that it made them feel like a bad feminist."

Also...

"Others shared that they thought their sexuality was empowering and that they felt they gained control over men who ogled their bodies."

So...in short, if you think women automatically feel "degraded, harassed, scared, threatened, powerless"....or any of the other negative emotions I've seen soooooo many of you claim like they were facts every time a woman is catcalled....

You are wrong.