Really? No threads about the Gillette ad yet?

[Ana the Ist]

Sounds like you found the same sources I did. They did differentiate between verbal and physical attack, though.

Yeah...but when we start talking about "being followed" or "groping" we're back to talking about a minority of women.

That is not even in the same league as what we're talking about. If you purchase a candy bar, you don't do anything to the person coming after you who might not be able to buy what he wants. If you catcall someone, you are making them the direct object of your actions. You certainly can - and I would argue, should - take into account the potential negative impact of your actions in that case.

No... I described a situation where men with particular beliefs and attitudes are impacting their lives by mistreating others. A woman who feels threatened by a man behaving in an intimidating way is not mistreating anyone.

This is not about negative feelings, it is about bad behaviour.

The only thing that you've been able to say about catcalling that makes it "bad behavior" are negative feelings!

How can you possibly turn around and then say it's not about anyone's feelings? That's the only negative affect and it's not all the time!

She's an outlier and doesn't change the substance of the argument.

I've no doubt that you believe that....but as hard as I just spent the last 15 minutes or so looking, I was only able to find one survey that addressed how women felt about it....and unfortunately, it's from the UK. Fortunately, it's also very recent. It reads...

Women more likely than men to think cat-calling is acceptable

"Figures from the study show that while 61 per cent of men think it is “always” or “usually” wrong for a man to comment on a woman’s appearance in the street, just 52 per cent of women agree."

Now, I understand that this probably varies from place to place....but I'm betting you probably didn't expect only 52% of women anywhere to say that it's "always" or at least "usually" wrong.

So you think toxic masculinity, such as it is, is biologically hardwired. Myself, I'm much more on the "nurture" side of the nature/nurture argument.

Do you think you could nurture men to ignore their sex drive even more than they are now?
Honestly, that's not the direction I see things headed. As men, we're given these sort of outlets which...in my opinion...are the sort of "pressure valves" for our sex drives (strip clubs, the bachelor party, pornography, etc) but the idea that we can all collectively decide to stop being sexually aggressive seems silly.

It's even sillier when you try to add the caveat that you don't really want men to stop being sexually aggressive....you just want the men you aren't attracted to to not be sexually aggressive in the first place.

How come you didn't answer my question about how many times you have romantically pursued a man in your lifetime? I understand that if it's too personal...well then it's too personal. My point is that I think on average....most women can probably count on one hand all the times they've done it. I've seen women who have asked a guy out once or twice and get rejected decide to never do it again because it's such a soul crushing experience for them. I don't know if that's the common experience....but if it is, a world where men aren't "sexually aggressive" is a world where most of us die unhappy and alone.

 

[Paidiske]

Yeah...but when we start talking about "being followed" or "groping" we're back to talking about a minority of women.

I really strongly disagree. It's a pretty universal female experience.

The only thing that you've been able to say about catcalling that makes it "bad behavior" are negative feelings!

How can you possibly turn around and then say it's not about anyone's feelings? That's the only negative affect and it's not all the time!

No, I said catcalling was a power play, an aggressive exercise in threat and intimidation. It's normal and healthy for people to not feel good when faced with that!

But my point was, you were saying the problem was with women for feeling bad; but the women aren't doing anything negative to anyone else. It's not okay to threaten or intimidate others.

Now, I understand that this probably varies from place to place....but I'm betting you probably didn't expect only 52% of women anywhere to say that it's "always" or at least "usually" wrong.

No, I didn't expect that. But note that that's still a majority of women. What does that suggest to you?

you think you could nurture men to ignore their sex drive even more than they are now?
Honestly, that's not the direction I see things headed. As men, we're given these sort of outlets which...in my opinion...are the sort of "pressure valves" for our sex drives (strip clubs, the bachelor party, pornography, etc) but the idea that we can all collectively decide to stop being sexually aggressive seems silly.

It's even sillier when you try to add the caveat that you don't really want men to stop being sexually aggressive....you just want the men you aren't attracted to to not be sexually aggressive in the first place.

I'm not suggesting men should ignore their sex drives. It's about how you engage with women. And objectifying, exerting power and control, dominance, etc... are the behaviours women are increasingly saying we're not prepared to put up with any more.

How come you didn't answer my question about how many times you have romantically pursued a man in your lifetime? I understand that if it's too personal...well then it's too personal. My point is that I think on average....most women can probably count on one hand all the times they've done it. I've seen women who have asked a guy out once or twice and get rejected decide to never do it again because it's such a soul crushing experience for them. I don't know if that's the common experience....but if it is, a world where men aren't "sexually aggressive" is a world where most of us die unhappy and alone.

I've only been single for a grand total of six months of my adult life, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. If I had spent more time unattached, I might have had more reason to consider romantically pursuing someone.

And you know... in that time, I've had two serious long term relationships. Neither of those men needed to behave in a way I'd consider "aggressive" to initiate, or sustain, those relationships. Some assertiveness, yes, goes a long way; but that's not the same thing as aggression.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Most of the women you know....but only by a slim margin....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean?amp

Studies show it's about 4 out of 10 that, at least once a month, fantasize about being forced into sex. So think of all those women you know....and then try to understand that you don't really know them as well as you thought you did.

I'm married.

As for what you sound like....well, you sound like the type of guy who believes everything a woman tells you lol. Sorry.

It doesn't have to be a matter of believing what they tell me. I know plenty of women. I see the guys they date and the guys they've married. Very few even come close to matching that list. Maybe it's just the circles I run in, which are overloaded with academics and other flavors of often over-educated professionals and musicians, but a guy who acted like that would get laughed out of the room.

Seriously though, why wouldn't you at least look it up before asking? Rape/forced sex fantasies are one of the most common female fantasies. Perhaps no woman has ever shared this with you because you're such a "nice guy" that even if you were pretending/roleplaying....they'd never be able to get into it.

Come on, man. You should know me better than that by now. I look up everything. Not only did I look up that article (and IIRC, there's at least one more by Psychology Today on the same subject), but I was kind of hoping you'd use it as your rebuttal so I could ask if you'd suddenly come around to accepting social science research as legitimate.

Which... If you're gonna pick a study to jump on board... I'm no stats whiz but "355 college women" from North Texas U hardly strikes me as representative of the population. In fact, the over-reliance on undergrads as research subjects is a big problem in social sciences

And in that study, there was a huge swing in the number of affirmative responses based on the way they worded the question. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple potential problems with it (the first being, maybe the fantasy is less about "rape" and more about something they have or haven't experienced yet)

Whenever people say to me, "Tell me you're worst joke!" I tell them to go first. I have no idea where people's lines are if they don't tell me ahead of time. I don't have a line. If I have no idea how filthy a person's sense of humor is, this is my ice breaker:

Two muffins are in an oven. One muffin turns to the other and says, "It sure is hot in here!". And the other muffin says, "Holy crap! A talking muffin!".

I had a friend whose favorite ice breaker when having people introduce themselves at some sort of group function was have them name the condiment that, if given the capability, they'd most want to be able to dispense from their belly button at will.

Toxic masculinity is so hardwired that we have an epidemic of gay catcallers hitting on straight men...

I wish I was good looking enough to get catcalled by gay dudes.

 

[Moral Orel]

As for the percentages of how often it "worked"??? I've got no idea...I know that it's considerably less than it failed...and not by a slim margin. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

Okay, so can we say the vast majority of the time it fails? Would you say that the majority of the time it makes people uncomfortable? I didn't ask whether it "worked" so I don't know why you put that in quotes. I asked specifically about how it was "received", as in, how are you making other people feel?

What makes it worth it? What sort of pros and cons are you weighing?

The rest of your post, while entertaining, is irrelevant. Sometimes it works, so what? Sometimes people laugh at rape jokes. Not everyone though. That's becoming a more and more apt comparison by the post, isn't it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I really strongly disagree. It's a pretty universal female experience.

Well, you're really strongly wrong. I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the last post, but I didn't pull those numbers out of thin air...I pulled them from the same Stop Street Harassment website you mentioned earlier. It says...

"Among all women, 23% had been sexually touched, 20% had been followed, and 9% had been forced to do something sexual."

So no...it's not "universal" to the female experience...not even close. This is why it's bad to assume your experiences are the same as everyone else's.

No, I said catcalling was a power play,

Let's drop the whole "power" narrative, it's a bad argument.

Power never gets defined in a way that's consistent...and it's never measurable. There's no real reason to think women feel as powerless as you do...especially since you seem to be pretty bad at guessing other women's experiences and opinions. I know it's popular in other narratives where people want to claim victimhood...but it's a bad argument in those narratives as well.

an aggressive exercise in threat and intimidation.

We're talking about catcalling....not threats and intimidation.

But my point was, you were saying the problem was with women for feeling bad; but the women aren't doing anything negative to anyone else. It's not okay to threaten or intimidate others.

Again, we're talking about catcalling....not threatening or intimidating. Remember when I tried to expand the discussion to any type of comments a man might make to a woman in public? Yeah...you insisted we keep it on catcalling. With that in mind, you don't get to expand it now to threats and intimidation...because there's nothing inherently threatening about yelling "hey there" to a woman across the street.

Perhaps you should examine why you and 52% of women feel entitled to dictate the terms of every human interaction they have in public and go about changing your perceptions about men.

No, I didn't expect that. But note that that's still a majority of women. What does that suggest to you?

Honestly? It suggests that you're far more comfortable with a very slim majority dictating the right and wrong behavior of everyone than I would've expected from someone with such typically liberal views.

I'm not suggesting men should ignore their sex drives. It's about how you engage with women. And objectifying, exerting power and control, dominance, etc... are the behaviours women are increasingly saying we're not prepared to put up with any more.

Is that really the case?

My guess is that if I did a face to face survey with 100 women...I probably wouldn't get 5 to openly admit to having rape fantasies. That's in spite of research showing the true number is somewhere between the upper 30s and mid 40s....possibly higher. Why? That's not hard to figure out...there's a lot of societal expectations for what a woman should feel and think...especially when it comes to men.

There's been a couple of good examples in this thread. At least one male poster thought that he probably never met anyone women who have forced sex fantasies and when I suggested that women were turned on by this sort of hypermasculine ideal....his reaction was to think that I was stuck in some sort ignorant way of thinking about women. How could he possibly be so far out of touch? That really only could've happened if perhaps a lot of women have been dishonest with him about what they're attracted to....and frankly, women do that.

The other example is in that feminist article I linked. Here's a woman who has bought into feminist narratives about patriarchy and female empowerment...yet when she's honest with herself she admits she genuinely likes the attention she gets from catcalling. The result? She feels guilty because she knows she's not supposed to feel that way (according to those narratives anyway).

I'm not trying to say I think you're lying...I think you genuinely feel the way you do. You should question though...how many women truly feel the same, and how many just say they feel the same because they know how other women in society will view them if they disagree??

If I felt that women could be 100% honest about these things...I might agree with you. I know they can't though, and it seems like there's a very real possibility that they're just going along with a very loud and judgemental subgroup of women.

I've only been single for a grand total of six months of my adult life, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. If I had spent more time unattached, I might have had more reason to consider romantically pursuing someone.

And you know... in that time, I've had two serious long term relationships. Neither of those men needed to behave in a way I'd consider "aggressive" to initiate, or sustain, those relationships. Some assertiveness, yes, goes a long way; but that's not the same thing as aggression.

Fair enough....the behavior of the men though wasn't the question. I assume that it's a fair guess they asked you out....not the other way around? Maybe I can dig up some numbers on this sort of thing.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, you're really strongly wrong. I guess I didn't make this clear enough in the last post, but I didn't pull those numbers out of thin air...I pulled them from the same Stop Street Harassment website you mentioned earlier. It says...

"Among all women, 23% had been sexually touched, 20% had been followed, and 9% had been forced to do something sexual."

So no...it's not "universal" to the female experience...not even close. This is why it's bad to assume your experiences are the same as everyone else's.

I flatly don't believe those numbers. I don't know a grown woman who hasn't had such experience.

Let's drop the whole "power" narrative, it's a bad argument.

But it's the heart of the problem here. You can't leave it outl

We're talking about catcalling....not threats and intimidation.

Except catcalling often is threatening and intimidating. The Venn diagram of those two circles has a pretty big overlap.

Honestly? It suggests that you're far more comfortable with a very slim majority dictating the right and wrong behavior of everyone than I would've expected from someone with such typically liberal views.

I often get accused of being a liberal, but it's not a label I choose for myself. I think it's just because I'm a forthright woman in a position of authority, so people can't reconcile that with being conservative.

But that aside, again, I'm not talking about black and white, right and wrong. I'm suggesting that basic respect would mean avoiding behaviours that most people find unwanted, unpleasant and intimidating. I really don't think that's all that radical a notion.

I'm not trying to say I think you're lying...I think you genuinely feel the way you do. You should question though...how many women truly feel the same, and how many just say they feel the same because they know how other women in society will view them if they disagree??

If I felt that women could be 100% honest about these things...I might agree with you. I know they can't though, and it seems like there's a very real possibility that they're just going along with a very loud and judgemental subgroup of women.

We could put it to a test, if you like. The other forum I mentioned earlier is a parenting forum, and it's overwhelmingly women. My experience is that the anonymity allows for a good deal of honestly on subjects which are normally taboo. I could post there asking for opinions on whether women really don't want to be objectified, controlled, dominated, in everyday life. Post a link back here so you can see the responses.

I'm not at all in any doubt about how that would go, though.

I assume that it's a fair guess they asked you out....not the other way around? Maybe I can dig up some numbers on this sort of thing.

Nope. I asked the first one out. Second one asked me out. So pretty balanced in my (admittedly limited) experience.

 

[jardiniere]

This amuses me in a dark way. The idea that companies are only now pushing politics and ideologies is absurd. They have always pushed ideologies- it what makes ads ads-

Buy our products and be what other people aspire to be. Our products are the best and make you the best too! Our products are leading edge and make you leading edge too! Other people will like you if you are clean! Other people will look up to you if you make a great cup of coffee! Don't be like these people, they don't use our product! Be more sexy when you eat our food! You're the best you can be with our product!

Advertising has always relied on culture's ideologies to determine the way they hawk their products. And now the culture is moving to include more and different voices other than it has in the past. And it alarms some people who don't know or haven't recognized that fact.

I grew up in a family raised on income from advertising. My dad worked at an ad agency, and my mom would sit with us in front of the tv and discuss advertising and what it was trying to accomplish and the methods it used. If you aren't aware that advertising is and has always used current ideologies and politics to sell products, you really need to learn this, it's vital in determining how to recognize truth from opinion.

The Gillette ad was no different from any other ad from the past that used indirect methods to sell a product. Like the original Apple 1984 ad to the Clydesdale horse ads of Budweiser, it's using words and images to convey ideals that they want to associate with their products. Stronger, better, more woke, more American, etc. Nothing but ideologies, nothing but politics, all to make you connect their product to those ideas.

Wake up. Learn how you are manipulated, so you can recognize when it's happening.

 

[SummerMadness]

‘I was so scared walking home’: In Britain, girls say they’re being harassed while wearing school uniforms - The Lily

• Children as young as 8 reported being victims of, or witnesses to, harassment.
• Two-thirds of the children questioned in the survey said they have experienced "unwanted sexual attention" in public.
• Thirty-five percent said they have been touched, groped or grabbed without their consent.
• Eight percent of respondents said they have been filmed or photographed by a stranger.
• Many girls said they feel harassment is "all part of growing up."

Somehow the bad argument emerging is that something criminal or physical has to happen to a majority of people for it to be a problem. If you around the world, most women have been street harassed and most people do not like it. If we look at the USA, most people consider it never appropriate to catcall: a 2014 YouGov poll found that “according to a large majority of the public, it is never appropriate (72%) to catcall.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It doesn't have to be a matter of believing what they tell me. I know plenty of women.

Yeah? You know their sexual fantasies?

I see the guys they date and the guys they've married. Very few even come close to matching that list.

You do realize that the research shows that the kind of guy a woman wants to marry and the guy she wants to have sex with aren't the same, right?

Maybe it's just the circles I run in

Nope, it's not.

Come on, man. You should know me better than that by now. I look up everything.

Oh good.

Not only did I look up that article (and IIRC, there's at least one more by Psychology Today on the same subject), but I was kind of hoping you'd use it as your rebuttal so I could ask if you'd suddenly come around to accepting social science research as legitimate.

Depends on the research and the field. If it's something very close to a hard science...like cognitive/neuro psychology...I tend to trust the findings without looking at the research.

If it's any of the sociological fields though...I'm probably going to want to see how the research was done. Clinical psychology, which I think is where this stuff lands, is somewhere in the middle. I don't really need to read it to know these are probably "self reporting" surveys and they are given the caution necessary for those methods.

Which... If you're gonna pick a study to jump on board... I'm no stats whiz but "355 college women" from North Texas U hardly strikes me as representative of the population. In fact, the over-reliance on undergrads as research subjects is a big problem in social sciences

And in that study, there was a huge swing in the number of affirmative responses based on the way they worded the question. Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple potential problems with it (the first being, maybe the fantasy is less about "rape" and more about something they have or haven't experienced yet)

Maybe you should have read the article more carefully....

"From 1973 through 2008, nine surveys of women's rape fantasies have been published. They show that about four in 10 women admit having them (31 to 57 percent) with a median frequency of about once a month. Actual prevalence of rape fantasies is probably higher because women may not feel comfortable admitting them."

So don't worry about the limitations of this one study....it's results are consistent with the results of 8 other studies on the topic since the early 70s lol. That's long before the virulent strain of postmodernism infected such fields of today.

I had a friend whose favorite ice breaker when having people introduce themselves at some sort of group function was have them name the condiment that, if given the capability, they'd most want to be able to dispense from their belly button at will.

He sounds like the life of the party.

I wish I was good looking enough to get catcalled by gay dudes.

3 times in my life....the first when I was maybe 18-19...if you include being vulgarly propositioned by a man who stopped gis car alongside you while walking down the street.

If you count every time a gay man has hit on me...it's probably closer to a dozen. Honestly, it was deeply troubling that first time because I was young enough to buy into the whole "gaydar" idea and I was upset to think there was something about me that was perceived as homosexual. After I mentioned this during a party, I found out several of my friends had similar experiences.

Funny story though, I was between jobs in college and my friend got me a job at a mom and pop pizza shop just off campus. One particularly busy night I was delivering pizzas and I had a large order for a house close to the campus....

I get there and a college age guy opens the door, tells me to step inside, and it clearly sounds like a party. It's only once I get inside that I realize it's all guys....and they're clearly gay. Again being like 19-20 I definitely had that look on my face like "what have I just walked into?" lol and I could see a lot of them were sort of sizing me up.

I recovered pretty quickly though and said, "Tell whoever ordered the large sausage I only accept cash!" with a smirk and like half of them start laughing. I couldn't have been inside more than 3 minutes while they rounded up cash but I probably got half a dozen mildly sexual comments from them (they were drunk) before one guy told the rest "ok that's enough...leave the guy alone".

As for being attractive...I doubt that has much to do with it. If there's enough gay guys around, you'll get hit on. Sometimes loudly...sometimes at a distance.

 

[Ana the Ist]

‘I was so scared walking home’: In Britain, girls say they’re being harassed while wearing school uniforms - The Lily

• Children as young as 8 reported being victims of, or witnesses to, harassment.
• Two-thirds of the children questioned in the survey said they have experienced "unwanted sexual attention" in public.
• Thirty-five percent said they have been touched, groped or grabbed without their consent.
• Eight percent of respondents said they have been filmed or photographed by a stranger.
• Many girls said they feel harassment is "all part of growing up."

Somehow the bad argument emerging is that something criminal or physical has to happen to a majority of people for it to be a problem. If you around the world, most women have been street harassed and most people do not like it. If we look at the USA, most people consider it never appropriate to catcall: a 2014 YouGov poll found that “according to a large majority of the public, it is never appropriate (72%) to catcall.

Unfortunately, YouGov appears to be a website for voluntary participation.

That basically means that it's never a valid poll, as those more inclined to share their opinions on something are the ones participating.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I flatly don't believe those numbers. I don't know a grown woman who hasn't had such experience.

Wait...what? You quoted that sources numbers in post #292. Now you're telling me that you don't believe their numbers?

But it's the heart of the problem here. You can't leave it outl

Fine....tell me what you mean by "power", tell me how you can quantify it so that we actually know there's an imbalance of power, and then tell me how it's relevant to the situation.

Except catcalling often is threatening and intimidating. The Venn diagram of those two circles has a pretty big overlap.

I disagree, there's nothing inherently threatening or intimidating about it. You can't just dismiss all the times women find it complimentary and ask that everyone see it the way you do. We can either talk about what it is by itself....or we can talk about the wide range of reactions to it....but we're not going to frame it in the worst possible light just because you see it that way.

I often get accused of being a liberal, but it's not a label I choose for myself. I think it's just because I'm a forthright woman in a position of authority, so people can't reconcile that with being conservative.

But that aside, again, I'm not talking about black and white, right and wrong. I'm suggesting that basic respect would mean avoiding behaviours that most people find unwanted, unpleasant and intimidating. I really don't think that's all that radical a notion.

If most people thought that a knee-length skirt showed too much of a woman's body and was "improper" (let's say 52% of people feel that way)...

Would you be telling women they shouldn't be wearing it? Or would you think that it doesn't matter if 52% of people think that...or 99% of people think that....it's a free country and she can wear whatever she likes?

We could put it to a test, if you like. The other forum I mentioned earlier is a parenting forum, and it's overwhelmingly women. My experience is that the anonymity allows for a good deal of honestly on subjects which are normally taboo. I could post there asking for opinions on whether women really don't want to be objectified, controlled, dominated, in everyday life. Post a link back here so you can see the responses.

I'm not at all in any doubt about how that would go, though.

If I thought women could be honest amongst themselves...I'd gladly agree to it. Try reading that feminist article I linked earlier...seriously...she mentions talking about liking catcalling with just her feminist friends and being afraid of the criticism she'll receive.

That's a group of people who not only share beliefs but look like her...her friends. She's still scared of how she's going to be perceived.

If we want to get total honesty....we'll probably need to round up a bunch of women with that specific kind of autism which tends to make a person direct, honest, and uncaring of the opinions of others...and put the question to them.

Nope. I asked the first one out. Second one asked me out. So pretty balanced in my (admittedly limited) experience.

Well I found the numbers for a couple of surveys. It was on a group of college age women and men (who statistically date the most of any age group) and when it comes to women about 94% prefer to be asked out...with 6% preferring to do the asking. The average number of times a woman in this group asked a guy out in the past year wasn't very useful....because it's between 0 and 1. More useful is the fact that about 86% of women had not asked any guys out....at all. The next biggest group at almost 10% had asked a guy out once. There were smaller percentages for girls who had asked guys out 2 or 3 times....but by the time we reached 4 times, the numbers were too small to be significant.

This was being studied to see if advances in equality for women had changed the fact that men are still more or less expected to do the asking....and risk the rejection and everything else that comes with that. The answer was....no...it's still basically all on men.

Here's the point behind that. You're talking about men catcalling and how they must feel "entitled"....as if they don't have freedom of speech in this country to say whatever they please in public as long as it doesn't break any laws. Gee...I wonder why they'd think that? (Yes that's sarcasm)

Yet somehow, you don't see the massive attitude of entitlement that it takes for women to not only expect men to make the first move and risk rejection....but they should also only do so in ways that 52% of women feel like they should, you know, because of some women's feelings.

It's pretty astounding to me.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I was between jobs in college and my friend got me a job at a mom and pop pizza shop just off campus. One particularly busy night I was delivering pizzas and I had a large order for a house close to the campus....

What is it with pizza delivery guys? lol I delivered pizzas for a few months before going back to college one year. Was hoping for a summer "Can't Buy Me Love" experience but got a "VisionQuest" one instead - male delivery guy gets propositioned by a male hotel guest. Guy invites me into his hotel room, gives me a $20 tip, and asks me if I wanted to stay and share his pizza. NO thanks!

 

[iluvatar5150]

Yeah? You know their sexual fantasies?

It comes up once in a while.

You do realize that the research shows that the kind of guy a woman wants to marry and the guy she wants to have sex with aren't the same, right?

Yeah, fine. The guys you're describing - aggressive to the point of being violent, unpredictable risk taking - it's not even about whether or not these women would want to have sex with them. Guys like that would get ostracized in a heartbeat precisely because their behavior is toxic. Confidence is great, but what you're describing is quite a ways beyond confident.

Let's flip it around - since I'm a dude, you're a dude, most of my friends are dudes, and by-and-large dudes are at least as likely as women to prioritize "sexy" over "save", it'll be easier to talk about this phenomenon from a dude's perspective.

Lots of guys fantasize about having a gf who's really wild and really hot. I don't know what your experience with that side of things has been, but mine (and from what I've seen of my friends, most of theirs, too) is that the reality doesn't really live up to the hype. It's fun for a bit, but there are downsides and after a while, getting your rocks off isn't worth that much hassle.

Likewise, rape fantasies don't mean women actually want to be raped.

Depends on the research and the field. If it's something very close to a hard science...like cognitive/neuro psychology...I tend to trust the findings without looking at the research.

If it's any of the sociological fields though...I'm probably going to want to see how the research was done. Clinical psychology, which I think is where this stuff lands, is somewhere in the middle. I don't really need to read it to know these are probably "self reporting" surveys and they are given the caution necessary for those methods.

Maybe you should have read the article more carefully....

"From 1973 through 2008, nine surveys of women's rape fantasies have been published. They show that about four in 10 women admit having them (31 to 57 percent) with a median frequency of about once a month. Actual prevalence of rape fantasies is probably higher because women may not feel comfortable admitting them."

So don't worry about the limitations of this one study....it's results are consistent with the results of 8 other studies on the topic since the early 70s lol. That's long before the virulent strain of postmodernism infected such fields of today.

Yes, I read that.

However, it doesn't say what those studies are, so it's hard to compare them and see if his assessment accurately describes their findings.

But even assuming he is accurate, the problem isn't just postmodernism (whatever that means in this context) - it's bad science that produces results that aren't repeatable.
Reproducibility Project: Psychology

And I don't know if I'd put up the 1970's as some sort of golden age of clinical psychology research unless the Stanford Prison Experiment is your kind of thing.

 

[Paidiske]

Wait...what? You quoted that sources numbers in post #292. Now you're telling me that you don't believe their numbers?

Hey, I said it was the best I could find on a quick google. Since I'm not commissioning my own research, that's the best you're going to get in this thread.

But no, I don't believe only a quarter of woman have been unwantedly touched or followed in public. Literally everyone I have ever spoken to on the topic has.

Fine....tell me what you mean by "power", tell me how you can quantify it so that we actually know there's an imbalance of power, and then tell me how it's relevant to the situation.

This might need some developing, because I've never had to define power for anyone before. But let's start with strength, force, or the ability to control; physically, emotionally, socially and relationally.

The social part of that would include things like wealth or being in a position or role of authority; also a significant age gap can influence the balance of power.

How is it relevant? If I'm catcalled by a 16-year-old weedy kid, the balance of power might even be on my side. I'm probably physically capable of defending myself, I'm emotionally mature, socially I hold experience and a position of authority, and I have the resources to draw on in order to act punitively towards him if necessary (I won't hesitate to call police, or indeed other authorities like his school or his mum if need be!).

Flip that the other way - if a 16-year-old girl is catcalled by a man in his 30s, she's physically not safe, she's emotionally not experienced or resilient, socially she's a nobody, and she may not realise the resources she has at her disposal. She's vulnerable.

It is notable to me that I have never - never ever - been catcalled or faced an unwanted approach in public from someone who, on balance, might be considered less powerful than me. It's an approach which relies on power to be able to carry it out with impunity.

Is that a helpful starting point?

If most people thought that a knee-length skirt showed too much of a woman's body and was "improper" (let's say 52% of people feel that way)...

Would you be telling women they shouldn't be wearing it? Or would you think that it doesn't matter if 52% of people think that...or 99% of people think that....it's a free country and she can wear whatever she likes?

Immodesty doesn't cause any direct harm and I've never felt the need to be the modesty police. But I'm content with general modesty standards being a social norm, and generally think it's sensible to abide by them.

Well I found the numbers for a couple of surveys. It was on a group of college age women and men (who statistically date the most of any age group) and when it comes to women about 94% prefer to be asked out...with 6% preferring to do the asking. The average number of times a woman in this group asked a guy out in the past year wasn't very useful....because it's between 0 and 1. More useful is the fact that about 86% of women had not asked any guys out....at all. The next biggest group at almost 10% had asked a guy out once. There were smaller percentages for girls who had asked guys out 2 or 3 times....but by the time we reached 4 times, the numbers were too small to be significant.

This was being studied to see if advances in equality for women had changed the fact that men are still more or less expected to do the asking....and risk the rejection and everything else that comes with that. The answer was....no...it's still basically all on men.

Frankly I think college is too young to be assessing attitudes and behaviours and extrapolating social norms from that. Most of us in those years are still very immature and not yet confident or well-formed as functioning adults.

Here's the point behind that. You're talking about men catcalling and how they must feel "entitled"....as if they don't have freedom of speech in this country to say whatever they please in public as long as it doesn't break any laws. Gee...I wonder why they'd think that? (Yes that's sarcasm)

Yet somehow, you don't see the massive attitude of entitlement that it takes for women to not only expect men to make the first move and risk rejection....but they should also only do so in ways that 52% of women feel like they should, you know, because of some women's feelings.

It's pretty astounding to me.

Hey, if you want to complain that women don't ask men out enough, I don't particularly have any issue with that. As long as it's not aimed at me specifically since one husband is more than enough work, thankyouverymuch.

That complaint doesn't justify behaving badly towards women, though.

 

[SummerMadness]

But no, I don't believe only a quarter of woman have been unwantedly touched or followed in public. Literally everyone I have ever spoken to on the topic has.

That's because it's not one quarter, inability to read statistics will get you those numbers.

A New Survey Finds 81 Percent Of Women Have Experienced Sexual Harassment

The results, released in a report Wednesday, show that 77 percent of women had experienced verbal sexual harassment, and 51 percent had been sexually touched without their permission. About 41 percent said they had been sexually harassed online, and 27 percent said they had survived sexual assault.

It's over 50%. I think what the complaint is that this is somehow all men or most men doing this. It's not most men, it's just a large enough number of men (probably closer to 33%) that account for the almost 80% of women being sexually harassed. Most people think it's wrong, but surveys also show most people don't step in to stop other men (I would surmise the bystander effect plays a factor in that). My mother inspired me to speak up if I see an behavior like that, she would routinely call men out loudly and embarrass them for groping women; it's rather interesting that they are so embarrassed, yet they have no problem sexually assaulting someone in a public space. I think commercials like Gillette are good because more of us need to call out this behavior, you should simply know that most people are behind you, so even though most people won't make that first move, supporters will join in,

 

[Ana the Ist]

What is it with pizza delivery guys? lol

I actually don't tell that story in real life because I know there's going to be some joke about porn following it.

I delivered pizzas for a few months before going back to college one year. Was hoping for a summer "Can't Buy Me Love" experience but got a "VisionQuest" one instead - male delivery guy gets propositioned by a male hotel guest. Guy invites me into his hotel room, gives me a $20 tip, and asks me if I wanted to stay and share his pizza. NO thanks!

Lol you do learn some things...I think I only did it for 3-4 months...but you'd immediately become aware of who tips and who doesn't (because apparently the same people call for delivery all the time). If you don't tip...those guys aren't in a hurry.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's because it's not one quarter, inability to read statistics will get you those numbers.

A New Survey Finds 81 Percent Of Women Have Experienced Sexual Harassment

This would probably be useful if we were talking about sexual harassment anywhere at anytime....but we weren't so, again, completely irrelevant.

 

[bèlla]

It's even sillier when you try to add the caveat that you don't really want men to stop being sexually aggressive....you just want the men you aren't attracted to to not be sexually aggressive in the first place.

Bingo! Years ago I met someone online. We began conversing and traded pictures. He was an old acquaintance of a good friend and she knew him well. At the very least, he's was truly male.

He critiqued me from head to toe. One of his comments gave me pause. But my friends laughed it off. They didn't think anything of it because he was very attractive and profoundly intelligent. He had a presence and expressed himself well. And wasn't lacking confidence either. That was my type back then.

I am pretty certain that if he didn't have these qualities their response would have been less lighthearted. And my reply might have differed too. It wasn't meant to offend. But it's the sort of remark that you can't pull off without something going for yourself. And he had that in spades.

My point is that I think on average....most women can probably count on one hand all the times they've done it. I've seen women who have asked a guy out once or twice and get rejected decide to never do it again because it's such a soul crushing experience for them. I don't know if that's the common experience....but if it is, a world where men aren't "sexually aggressive" is a world where most of us die unhappy and alone.

I don't pursue and will never chase. My experience with the person above changed my approach. I developed an appreciation for men who made their intentions clear and didn't attempt to woo me through friendship or covert means. I shut those down every time.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It comes up once in a while.

Yeah, fine. The guys you're describing - aggressive to the point of being violent, unpredictable risk taking - it's not even about whether or not these women would want to have sex with them.

It is though...because guys want to have sex. I'm generalizing of course, perhaps your circle of scholar friends finds sex too "pedestrian" to engage in...

Joking aside though...we're talking about generalizations. Even the research is generalized. The hypermasculine guy that epitomizes what women find attractive comes off like a psychopathic narcissistic control freak if we just lump together these generalizations into some James Bondian ideal that few people are...and almost no one encounters.

So don't think of it as this psychopathic narcissistic control freak that women are throwing themselves at because they want ti have his children. Instead, think of it as a spectrum...and because women find these things sexy, and men want to have sex, men who display some of those traits in some way at some time or another are more likely to be "sexually successful" than those who do not.

And that's the short version of why men are sexually aggressive (compared to women anyway) and it's not likely to change regardless of who complains about it or how often.

Guys like that would get ostracized in a heartbeat precisely because their behavior is toxic. Confidence is great, but what you're describing is quite a ways beyond confident.

Guys like that (the ideal version anyway) tend to not care much about what other people think of them.

Let's flip it around - since I'm a dude, you're a dude, most of my friends are dudes, and by-and-large dudes are at least as likely as women to prioritize "sexy" over "save", it'll be easier to talk about this phenomenon from a dude's perspective.

Did you mean sexy over safe? It's actually pretty funny when you look at the traits that men generally find desirable. We're rather simple creatures compared to women .

Lots of guys fantasize about having a gf who's really wild and really hot. I don't know what your experience with that side of things has been, but mine (and from what I've seen of my friends, most of theirs, too) is that the reality doesn't really live up to the hype.

Depends on the woman. There's definitely the type of woman who you might have to be more concerned about other guys flirting with...and then there's the type that you don't have to worry about so much.

I think Patrice O'Neal had a bit about this where he proclaimed..."I don't want a woman who is safe walking around the streets at night. Go pick me up some bread from the store and take the dark alley, it's quicker lol. I spoke with the crackheads....they aren't interested in you lol."

It's fun for a bit, but there are downsides and after a while, getting your rocks off isn't worth that much hassle.

I dated a girl who was 21 when I was 17...former cheerleader at my high school. While she was attractive, it wasn't her looks that were a problem as much as how she used them. I didn't realize at the time but I was her sort of "safe" rebound guy who she felt she could manipulate (and did).

Likewise, rape fantasies don't mean women actually want to be raped.

Yeah.

Yes, I read that.

However, it doesn't say what those studies are, so it's hard to compare them and see if his assessment accurately describes their findings.

Do you want me to dig around for them? It's a self reporting study....and whenever we ask people to self report socially unaccepted behaviors and beliefs, the tendency is always towards underreporting. So if 4 in 10 is the research number...it's a pretty safe bet the real number is more like 5-6 in 10.

But even assuming he is accurate, the problem isn't just postmodernism (whatever that means in this context) - it's bad science that produces results that aren't repeatable.
Reproducibility Project: Psychology

Right...but these generally aren't talking about surveys that directly ask someone's beliefs or attitudes about something. Those tend to be easily repeatable unless the wording is so confusing that people don't understand what is being asked.

And I don't know if I'd put up the 1970's as some sort of golden age of clinical psychology research unless the Stanford Prison Experiment is your kind of thing.

I'm not saying that...I'm just saying it's not infected with the nonsense that passes for research today. There was a paper that basically copied sections of mein kampf in English....but replaced "jews" with "men" and presented itself as some feminist perspective on the patriarchy. It was very well received.

That's one of several attempts recently to expose the postmodern bias in a lot of these fields. It successfully showed that as long as the "correct" narrative was being presented....content, methodology, and all the other aspects that should be the most important parts of work in the social fields didn't matter at all.

Academic journal accepts ‘Feminist Mein Kampf’

The takeaway here is that yes....we should definitely question and take a hard look at any research which has a questionable methodology that leads to unrepeatable results. We should also take a hard look at and question any research/papers/studies which seem to cater to popular leftist narratives. Those are definitely two problems in the current climate of social science research.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'm surprised at how difficult it has been for some men to take a moment and reflect on how they treat women. More than a few just seem to be all up in arms about an advert that suggests grabbing womens' butts or speaking condescendingly towards them is not some inaliienable right.

I guess Gilette really isn't designed for sensitive skin...