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Really? No threads about the Gillette ad yet?

Sparagmos

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I don't know how old you are. I had to deal with quite a bit of sexism in my 20's, but I took it as a challenge and managed to get around it. I don't know how guys were in Florida, but catcalls to women were not common among the men of west Texas and New Mexico were i did all of my growing up.

Much more common were men who rose when a woman entered a room, who opened doors, including car doors, for her, who helped her with her coat, who carried her books or luggage or whatever, and held her chair when she was seated at a table. Now such mannerly formalities are not common and/or are considered politically incorrect and/or demeaning to women.

Far more demeaning to women in my world is the assumption that women are too weak and fragile and unable to handle the occasional smart aleck remark or ordinary 'guy banter' and that men are required to walk on eggs around the women in their work place or social circle.
Once again, I know how to “handle it” I also took it as a challenge growing up in Texas and dealing with sexism. I’ve always been known as a “strong” woman. I also managed to “get around it.” But that doesn’t mean it’s OK. Those of us pushing back aren’t fragile. We were fragile when we just took it. What people called “ordinary guy banter” in the past is now recognized as demeaning. Catcalls are common in urban areas, where lots of other men are around. It is often performative. Someone waiting until I pass him, seeing me from behind, and following me for half a block while “complimenting” my body is not OK, nor is calling something out from a distance so everyone around me looks at me when I’m just minding my own business, not OK.
 
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Ana the Ist

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As silly as a lot of corporate compliance training can seem, "Harassment is a fluid concept that's in the eye of the beholder" was the core concept of the stuff I sat through just last week. Certain behaviors may or may not constitute harassment, and a lot of that variability exists in how the behaviors are interpreted by the person on the receiving end.

My co-workers and I do and say all kinds of vile things to each other, but it's accepted because we're all friends and we're all okay with it. If I did that to somebody I don't know, I'd be liable to get kicked out, punched, fired, etc. Harassment isn't any different.




I don't think that's quite what's happening. What I see happening is that a large segment of the population (i.e. women) are saying that all of behaviors that the other half of the population (i.e. men) thought was okay actually aren't okay. Given that they are typically on the receiving end of those behaviors, they are the ones who get to make that call.

Except it isn't...it isn't "women" in general...it's just a vocal subset of women.

What's more is....why should women get to decide what "masculinity" should be? Do we get to decide what femininity should be? I can't imagine the mental gymnastics you have to perform to justify this.

The worst part is that pretty much everyone on the left has no idea what they're talking about in regards to this topic. If you think these masculine traits are "toxic"....

1. Aggressive physically and socially (even to the point of violence)
2. Aggressive sexually.
3. Domineering or dominating.
4. Unpredictable/risk taking.

Then perhaps you should spend 10-15 minutes looking into what masculine traits women find most sexually attractive. Yes, those 4 are right there with a small number of other traits. Yes, when I say women, I mean this holds true universally across all cultures for as long as we've been studying them. Yes, this is so well researched it's basically an established fact.

It's like I'm talking to a bunch of people who have been living on some other world than me. Hasn't anyone here wondered why mass killers like that Parkland school shooter suddenly get thousands of love letters from women 14-40 years old after they get convicted and locked up? Hasn't anyone ever wondered why some women have "rape" fantasies....but basically no woman has fantasies about having sex with a computer programmer who sits in a cubicle all day?

Surely, even if you've never wondered those things....you've wondered why so many women seem to go for "bad boy" types and no women are pining for timid, pear-shaped guys with high pitched voices that really want to have long discussions about their feelings?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Define "often"...

With regards to who gets to set what bar, while reasonable people can agree to disagree. You have a wave of far-left millennials who don't see it that way. They see it as "you agree that the bar should be where I say it should be (based on something they learned in a <insert demographic here> studies class), or you're a non-'woke' bigot who's holding society back!.

Like I touched on, there are numerous double-standards with regards to attitudes and the media, but they let those slide because, since men have historically been in a position of privilege, it's okay to portray them negatively.


This commercial for instance:

...if the genders were reversed, you know that college-aged "far-left" would be furious and claiming "it's reducing a woman to her looks by making it seem funny that a person's worth of being noticed is based on their looks"



...or take a look at some of these ads and imagine the roles reversed:

If there were lines like "So easy, a woman could even do it" or a man, joking with another man about "are you sure my wife will be able to figure out how to use it????" while she's fumbling trying to figure out how to use the recliner.

What do you think the reaction would be?

The people who see themselves as the arbiters of where the bar gets set (18-30 far left progressives...and I say "far" left, because I consider myself left of center on most things and they don't represent me), have already demonstrated their lack of consistency by getting over-outraged with certain things, and conspicuously unconcerned when those same things happen to people who aren't in one of "the groups we deem worthy of our concern".


That's why they're calling to boycott a song from the 1940's and acting as if it's some sort of "rape anthem"...yet, I don't recall them ever trying to boycott the movie "White Men Can't Jump". I recall them lashing about about Pam Geller's "Draw Muhammed" contest as being Islamaphobic (and for the record, I do think it was"...yet, not a peep about the play "The Book of Mormon" by Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

Why do you suppose that is?

I'm not going to dispute that men's issues sometimes get pushed to the side, but specifically regarding the "dumb husband/dad" trope - that was a stereotype largely built by men.

Part of it was built on the notion that housework was "woman's work" - guys didn't normally do housework and then, when tasked to either couldn't figure it out or pretended to not be able to figure it out so they could get out of it. Some of that was a real cultural phenomenon and some of it was marketing and media execs (still mostly dudes) exaggerating it for comedic and commercial purposes.

But part of it was also a result of the evolution of the comedy genre. If you look at all the sitcoms from the last several decades, you'll find that a majority of those based around a single character (as opposed to an ensemble cast like Friends or Modern Family) are based around the standup routines of the actor playing that main character. Almost always, the show follows a vaudevillian "Double Act" formula with the comic being the comic and their spouse being the straight man. And since most stand-up comics are dudes, most of the sitcoms have doofy husbands and serious wives. If you look at the shows based around female comics (e.g. Roseanne, I Love Lucy), it's the women who are the dumb ones.

It's hard to complain about there being a double-standard in the way that the media treats dudes when it was overwhelmingly male execs, writers, and comedian/actors who created that trope in the first place.

But fear not, when I went to find material about the history of the dumb dad stereotype, nearly every search hit I got was about how it's time for it to die and/or how it's already dying.

ETA: There's an argument to be made that this stereotype could've been undercut sooner by the attitude that men ought to hold other men accountable. If, 40 years ago, one advertising exec turned to another and (over scotch and cigars) suggested that maybe they shouldn't be encouraging that kind of behavior, who knows how things would be different now....
 
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iluvatar5150

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Except it isn't...it isn't "women" in general...it's just a vocal subset of women.

What's more is....why should women get to decide what "masculinity" should be?

They don't. But they ought to have a say in what it shouldn't be when it negatively impacts them.

The worst part is that pretty much everyone on the left has no idea what they're talking about in regards to this topic. If you think these masculine traits are "toxic"....

1. Aggressive physically and socially (even to the point of violence)
2. Aggressive sexually.
3. Domineering or dominating.
4. Unpredictable/risk taking.

Then perhaps you should spend 10-15 minutes looking into what masculine traits women find most sexually attractive. Yes, those 4 are right there with a small number of other traits. Yes, when I say women, I mean this holds true universally across all cultures for as long as we've been studying them. Yes, this is so well researched it's basically an established fact.

It's like I'm talking to a bunch of people who have been living on some other world than me. Hasn't anyone here wondered why mass killers like that Parkland school shooter suddenly get thousands of love letters from women 14-40 years old after they get convicted and locked up? Hasn't anyone ever wondered why some women have "rape" fantasies....but basically no woman has fantasies about having sex with a computer programmer who sits in a cubicle all day?

Surely, even if you've never wondered those things....you've wondered why so many women seem to go for "bad boy" types and no women are pining for timid, pear-shaped guys with high pitched voices that really want to have long discussions about their feelings?

Where the heck are you meeting women? I used to like me a bit of crazy, too, back in the day but holy schnikeys. Rape fantasies?!? Most of the women I know would find all of that behavior repulsive.

Actually.... Remember when I said I thought you were way older than you are? Generally, I still think you come off that way (and I mean that in a good way), but ^^^THIS^^^ all sounds like a dude who's barely in his 20's looking for women also barely in their 20's. The only chicks who run after bad boys all the time are either young and stupid or just messed up.

Once you start looking for women who've already got an education and/or a career (and/or maybe a house), the scene starts looking a lot different.
 
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Moral Orel

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But you realize that not every woman has the same response to catcalling?
Of course. Not every person has the same response to rape jokes. Should I use them as ice breakers when I meet someone for the first time?
 
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iluvatar5150

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Of course. Not every person has the same response to rape jokes. Should I use them as ice breakers when I meet someone for the first time?

Poop jokes are the ice breakers. Rape jokes are the follow-up.
 
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TheBear

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I'm pretty shocked that this hasn't made it onto here yet.

I liked it. The only part that feels a bit "iffy" to me is that I cannot really decipher why those two boys are fighting at the bbq. If it is just horseplay and rough housing, I'm cool with that. If it is using violence to solve a conflict, I very much have a problem with that.

Otherwise, 100% agreement for me.

I'm surprised at how difficult it has been for some men to take a moment and reflect on how they treat women. More than a few just seem to be all up in arms about an advert that suggests grabbing womens' butts or speaking condescendingly towards them is not some inaliienable right.

I've been on this forum long enough to know there will be some opinions on it so...let's here it!
 
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Ana the Ist

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They don't. But they ought to have a say in what it shouldn't be when it negatively impacts them.

Whether someone is defining something positively (by saying what it is) or defining it negatively (by saying what it isn't) they're still defining it.

No offense to anyone jumping on this whole "toxic masculinity" meme (because that's about all it really is) but what qualifies you to define something so intrinsic to the identity of half the population? That's a job that I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with someone who spends their lives studying gender with.
Yet most of the people who are trying to do it aren't any better informed than some bum off the street.


Where the heck are you meeting women? I used to like me a bit of crazy, too, back in the day but holy schnikeys. Rape fantasies?!? Most of the women I know would find all of that behavior repulsive.

Most of the women you know....but only by a slim margin....

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean?amp

Studies show it's about 4 out of 10 that, at least once a month, fantasize about being forced into sex. So think of all those women you know....and then try to understand that you don't really know them as well as you thought you did.


Actually.... Remember when I said I thought you were way older than you are? Generally, I still think you come off that way (and I mean that in a good way), but ^^^THIS^^^ all sounds like a dude who's barely in his 20's looking for women also barely in their 20's. The only chicks who run after bad boys all the time are either young and stupid or just messed up.

I'm married.

As for what you sound like....well, you sound like the type of guy who believes everything a woman tells you lol. Sorry.

Seriously though, why wouldn't you at least look it up before asking? Rape/forced sex fantasies are one of the most common female fantasies. Perhaps no woman has ever shared this with you because you're such a "nice guy" that even if you were pretending/roleplaying....they'd never be able to get into it.

Edit-And the research suggests otherwise. The idea that only "young, stupid, or messed up" women find these things sexy is an ignorant stereotype.

Once you start looking for women who've already got an education and/or a career (and/or maybe a house), the scene starts looking a lot different.

That's one of the complexities of female attraction....who they want to "settle down" with doesn't look like the guy they want to have sex with. This also goes into a lot of issues about sex and marriage that I'm not going to get into because that's not the topic.

That doesn't change the truth about what I said though....it doesn't matter if we're talking about a woman from some hunter-gatherer tribe in the Amazon, or a woman from suburbia in the midwest of the USA. The general traits that attract women the most include those 4 I listed above.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Of course. Not every person has the same response to rape jokes. Should I use them as ice breakers when I meet someone for the first time?

See post 280.

What's wrong with me doing something that a woman likes? Or appreciates? Or makes her feel empowered?
 
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Ironhold

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From your statement above. I took it to mean that you think rules are bad, which is odd coming from a Christian who follows pretty strict rules set forth by their religion.

See my other posts about how force is necessary for people to be able to assert their rights and the rights of others against threats.

Depending upon how one defines "aggression", even things like "contesting a speeding ticket" or "standing up to an incompetent co-worker" could be viewed as such.
 
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Ironhold

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I welcome you to make that comment towards a man and report on the results.
I've heard, apparently that NOBODY likes being told what to do.

As a dude?

Yeah, I do in fact get that a lot.

My jaw is messed up due to an injury I sustained, and so it takes effort to muster a smile. Otherwise, my face tends to default to a "meh" expression.
 
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Paidiske

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I'm going to ignore the word "threatened" there...because that's in no way unique to women and frankly, I'd be surprised if women are threatened with violence more than men.

That said, I'm going to need some statistics on "following" and "groping" because when I look at things like domestic violence or rape...we aren't talking about "most women".

Well, a quick google came up with the number 65% of women have experienced verbal and physical street harassment. That was for America. In Australia, it was 87%.

Who cares? I don't mean to sound insensitive...but if we're talking about "how men should act" why would we care that some women find certain behaviors "unwelcome"? If we told people not to do things that "some people find unwelcome"....we'd be telling people not to do anything.

Okay, that, right there, is an entitlement mentality. I want to do something which impacts you, and I don't care if you don't like or don't want it or don't feel safe while I do it.

Dude, really? How does that meet any sort of basic ethical standard?

Does your group ever examine why women keep involving themselves with these men? If you're interested in preventing these things from ever happening....seems like getting women to avoid these men to begin with would be a lot easier than changing the masculinity traits of these men.

Awesome shift to blaming the victim there.

So you're saying that black and hispanic male cultures have more "toxic masculinity" than whites?

Perhaps you're not aware of this because of our cultural differences....but liberals here in the US frown on any examination of "black culture" from whites as an explanation of anything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it of course, but be prepared to be labeled a racist for it.

I am very clear that I don't know enough about the American situation to make any sort of informed comment.

Let's talk about your way of approaching this topic....I've been hinting at it, but I'm just going to say it bluntly now.

Your personal experiences/preferences don't matter.

We're talking about how men act towards women. If we're going to talk about men as a general group....and women as a general group....your personal feelings don't matter.

Why? Obviously, no man can be expected to know your personal feelings regarding how you think they should behave. More importantly though, your personal experiences don't reflect those of all women. The idea that all women are walking around as scared and timid as you....is frankly very silly.

I'm not saying that you don't have anything to add to the discussion. I'm saying that when you say "I've felt this way....therefore so have most women" is a worthless argument.

I'm not just saying that because I've felt something, so have most women. I've had these discussions with many, many women. I'm well informed on the feelings and reactions of other women on this matter.

You know, on another forum I belong to, there's also a discussion about this ad running. It developed into mentioning a tweet from some person I'd never heard of, saying: "Women, imagine that for 24 hours, there were no men in the world. No men are being harmed in the creation of this hypothetical. They will all return. They are safe and happy wherever they are during this hypothetical time period.
What would or could you do that day?"

And the really sad thing, was that most of the women answering said they'd go for a walk. Like, that's what not having men around meant for lots of us; we could take a walk, wherever we wanted, in safety.

No, actually, the really really sad thing, was that just for asking the question, the person who started that discussion got rape threats...

You think most men haven't been rejected by a woman who seemed to be more interested in how much money they made? Do you think most men haven't treated as a means to some material possession by a woman whether it's a drink at a bar or a new pair of shoes?

It's not behaviour I've seen a lot. Is it something all men experience?

What's more is....why should women get to decide what "masculinity" should be?

I think we as a community get to decide that masculinity shouldn't be harmful. If we see evidence that our ideals and narratives of masculinity are harming men themselves, their families and our society, then it's time to examine those ideals and narratives.

Hasn't anyone ever wondered why some women have "rape" fantasies....but basically no woman has fantasies about having sex with a computer programmer who sits in a cubicle all day?

Yes, many women enjoy rape fantasies. The key word there is "fantasy," which is a safe way to explore a bunch of emotions and motivations. Real rape isn't a fantasy, it's a ticket to PTSD. Women might be attracted to a level of aggression and risk-taking (and I can see the sense in that) but the attraction wears pretty thin when the aggression is turned against her.

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Ironhold

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So ... the Social Justice Warrior designation is really extreme enough to be considered satire/propaganda ...

Either the designation is a caricature ... or nobody would listen to the designee anyway ...

Basically, a "social justice warrior" is someone borne of such an extreme echo chamber that they don't understand how often they end up being the very thing they claim to be fighting against.

It's like the so-called "anti-fascist" types who are beating people with bike locks and surrounding peoples' houses. They don't realize that they're behaving in a fascistic fashion towards those that they disagree with, and may even get violent if someone tries to point this out to them.

These people simply lack the perspective to understand what's going on and why they're so often just making them worse.
 
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Moral Orel

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See post 280.

What's wrong with me doing something that a woman likes? Or appreciates? Or makes her feel empowered?
I never said "automatically". I specifically said, several times, "likely". So what would be wrong with me telling a rape joke to a stranger if sometimes that person laughs? Or cheers them up when they're in a bad mood? Or gives them material to tell their friends later giving them a boost to their self-esteem that they're viewed as humorous?

So what's the likelihood that your catcalls are well received? Is it worth it for all the times it isn't?
 
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Moral Orel

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Poop jokes are the ice breakers. Rape jokes are the follow-up.
Whenever people say to me, "Tell me you're worst joke!" I tell them to go first. I have no idea where people's lines are if they don't tell me ahead of time. I don't have a line. If I have no idea how filthy a person's sense of humor is, this is my ice breaker:

Two muffins are in an oven. One muffin turns to the other and says, "It sure is hot in here!". And the other muffin says, "Holy crap! A talking muffin!".
 
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Foxfyre

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Once again, I know how to “handle it” I also took it as a challenge growing up in Texas and dealing with sexism. I’ve always been known as a “strong” woman. I also managed to “get around it.” But that doesn’t mean it’s OK. Those of us pushing back aren’t fragile. We were fragile when we just took it. What people called “ordinary guy banter” in the past is now recognized as demeaning. Catcalls are common in urban areas, where lots of other men are around. It is often performative. Someone waiting until I pass him, seeing me from behind, and following me for half a block while “complimenting” my body is not OK, nor is calling something out from a distance so everyone around me looks at me when I’m just minding my own business, not OK.

I would agree that it isn't okay to harass anybody in that way. It isn't okay for men t do it to women or men. It isn't okay for women to do it to men or women. I'm just saying that you can't make national policy based on the actions of a few jerks
 
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Ana the Ist

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Well, a quick google came up with the number 65% of women have experienced verbal and physical street harassment. That was for America. In Australia, it was 87%.

Unfortunately, when I looked, I only found numbers from a source called "Stop Street Harassment"....which obviously might be biased. When I looked for studies....it was also problematic because they included things like "leering"...which seems rather vague and subjective.

So with that in mind, can you just provide a link or two?

Okay, that, right there, is an entitlement mentality. I want to do something which impacts you, and I don't care if you don't like or don't want it or don't feel safe while I do it.

Dude, really? How does that meet any sort of basic ethical standard?

If I go to the store and purchase a candy bar....that could negatively impact someone. I might get the last one available that doesn't have any peanuts....and now the next person who comes in that has a peanut allergy won't be able to purchase a candy bar!!!

Everything....literally everything we do has the potential to negatively impact someone. That's not a reasonable basis for ethical considerations....it's not even a possible basis for ethical considerations.

Awesome shift to blaming the victim there.

Whoa....lol ok. Here's what you said...

Almost all men who commit domestic violence have three things in common; they believe themselves superior to women with a right to control women (a belief in gender hierarchy), they find violence acceptable, and they hold to fairly rigid gender roles/stereotypes. So primary prevention aims at breaking down those beliefs and attitudes which - in the minds of these men - legitimate their actions.

You described a situation where men with very negative feelings are impacting their lives, and the lives of others, and how you think they need to be responsible for them and change them. How? By changing their beliefs and perspectives....

Yet for the whole time you've been posting....you're talking about negative feelings and thoughts that women have (I'm scared when I'm in public around large men! Women feel intimidated and powerless!) and you want men to be responsible for those as well.

Yet the second I suggest that women might bear some responsibility for the situation....I'm "victim blaming".

This begs the question, at what point are women responsible for their own feelings??? Never??? If men have negative feelings that impact their lives...it's their fault and they need to change their perceptions. If women have negative feelings that impact their lives....it's men's fault and they need to change.

Congratulations...you've rationalized your way to a point where women are never ever at fault or responsible for anything negative in their lives lol.

I am very clear that I don't know enough about the American situation to make any sort of informed comment.

Well don't feel too bad....it looks like you're not the only one.

I'm not just saying that because I've felt something, so have most women. I've had these discussions with many, many women. I'm well informed on the feelings and reactions of other women on this matter.

And did you read post 280 where I posted an article written by a feminist talking about how she enjoys catcalls?

You know, on another forum I belong to, there's also a discussion about this ad running. It developed into mentioning a tweet from some person I'd never heard of, saying: "Women, imagine that for 24 hours, there were no men in the world. No men are being harmed in the creation of this hypothetical. They will all return. They are safe and happy wherever they are during this hypothetical time period.
What would or could you do that day?"

And the really sad thing, was that most of the women answering said they'd go for a walk. Like, that's what not having men around meant for lots of us; we could take a walk, wherever we wanted, in safety.

No, actually, the really really sad thing, was that just for asking the question, the person who started that discussion got rape threats...

I think women would probably start complaining about the negative and belittling comments/snide remarks that they get from other women.


It's not behaviour I've seen a lot. Is it something all men experience?

I would be surprised if anyone has studied the topic. We simply don't consider men's problems as seriously as we do women's.

I don't remember the comedian who commented on this recently...but I vaguely remember the bit. He asked the audience to consider how #MeToo would've went had Harvey Weinstein been a woman and the actresses been men instead.

The point of the bit was that at the very most....it would've been considered a humorous anecdote when the actors came forward and described the sexual assaults from "Harvina"....culminating in the question "So did you get the part?"


I think we as a community get to decide that masculinity shouldn't be harmful.

I think we get to decide some issues as a community...I don't think masculinity or femininity are amongst those things though. Those tend to arise a bit too organically to be controlled by social mandate.

On a very very basic level....I think what we're talking about is generally, the problem of overly aggressive sexual behavior in men. There's some very basic biological underpinnings here that you can't simply change with a discussion.

Men won't stop wanting to have sex. Men are more sexually aggressive for the simple reason that women don't "reward" sexually passive men with...sex. In other words, the men who get sex are the ones who go out and seek it. Percentage-wise...it's a small number of us who are either attractive enough or high status enough to have women chasing after us.

The only way I can see to realistically change men's behavior long term is going to sound ridiculous. You'd have to convince women to have lots of sex with low-status, plain or unattractive, sexually passive men. If that were the world we lived in....you'd probably see men stop hitting on women all the time.

If we see evidence that our ideals and narratives of masculinity are harming men themselves, their families and our society, then it's time to examine those ideals and narratives.

This "narrative" wasn't dreamt up by some group of men. Nobody really controls what they find attractive.

Have you ever looked at the "incel" community? It gets press when it's overly negative...but the reality is, it's a group of men who want females (and not just sex, but relationships as well) but cannot get them. For some, it's because they're honestly quite ugly. For others, it's because they have some serious problems/character flaws....

But there is a group in there who probably could have intimate relationships with women, but don't simply because they're intimidated, anxious, and lack any real self esteem or confidence. They really respect women...to the point of idealizing them a bit...and are paralyzed by fear of rejection. They would not approach a woman...even in an appropriate setting...and this leaves them depressed and alone because women will not approach them.

Now imagine if all guys were like that....you'd have a world where you never need fear walking around in public. No women would ever be harassed in the slightest way. In fact, if a woman did desire a relationship with a man....she could just approach a man whenever she pleases and decide the terms of the relationship herself.

Even if we could do that....and somehow avoid the depression and loneliness of all those single men who are likely to die alone....do you really think men and women would really be happy or better off in that world?

Be honest...how many men do you think you've tried to initiate some sort of romantic relationship with in your entire life? Do we need more than one hand to count the number?

Yes, many women enjoy rape fantasies. The key word there is "fantasy," which is a safe way to explore a bunch of emotions and motivations. Real rape isn't a fantasy, it's a ticket to PTSD.

My point was about what women find attractive....not trying to say women want to be raped. Give me some credit here.

Women might be attracted to a level of aggression and risk-taking (and I can see the sense in that) but the attraction wears pretty thin when the aggression is turned against her.

And that's the irony here. When we're talking about men...the traits that attract them are almost always physical and it's a fairly short universal list. Men are fairly simple in this regard....and the result is that we're attracted to many women.

Women on the other hand are far more complex...they don't just go for the physical features like being tall, physically strong, deep voiced, wide jawed, and narrow eyed. They're also attracted by high social status (doctors, lawyers, CEOs) physically aggressive, socially aggressive, domineering, adventurous/risk-taking, etc. The fantasy is that not only will they find this man...but despite his almost immeasurable self reliance, control, and invincibility...he's going to open up to that one special woman who can see his brief vulnerability and fall passionately in love with her.

It's a complicated, contradictory list, and no guy is really going to live up to it lol....if anything, that's all the more reason not to just let women decide what masculinity should be.

I'm glad that you can appreciate why most women are attracted to the idea of an aggressive and even potentially violent man. I can certainly appreciate that no woman wants her man to be violent to her....just others...especially those who might be threatening to the woman herself.

Now all I really need you to realize is that isn't a simple request. When you spend hundreds of thousands of years sexually selecting men in favor of aggressive tendencies and behavior....well, sometimes that comes in combination with other traits and characteristics that result in dangerous behavior.

I don't think we can all just decide to get rid of it....and I'm certainly not convinced that we should.
 
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Paidiske

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Unfortunately, when I looked, I only found numbers from a source called "Stop Street Harassment"....which obviously might be biased. When I looked for studies....it was also problematic because they included things like "leering"...which seems rather vague and subjective.

So with that in mind, can you just provide a link or two?

Sounds like you found the same sources I did. They did differentiate between verbal and physical attack, though.

If I go to the store and purchase a candy bar....that could negatively impact someone. I might get the last one available that doesn't have any peanuts....and now the next person who comes in that has a peanut allergy won't be able to purchase a candy bar!!!

Everything....literally everything we do has the potential to negatively impact someone. That's not a reasonable basis for ethical considerations....it's not even a possible basis for ethical considerations.

That is not even in the same league as what we're talking about. If you purchase a candy bar, you don't do anything to the person coming after you who might not be able to buy what he wants. If you catcall someone, you are making them the direct object of your actions. You certainly can - and I would argue, should - take into account the potential negative impact of your actions in that case.

You described a situation where men with very negative feelings are impacting their lives, and the lives of others, and how you think they need to be responsible for them and change them. How? By changing their beliefs and perspectives....

Yet for the whole time you've been posting....you're talking about negative feelings and thoughts that women have (I'm scared when I'm in public around large men! Women feel intimidated and powerless!) and you want men to be responsible for those as well.

No... I described a situation where men with particular beliefs and attitudes are impacting their lives by mistreating others. A woman who feels threatened by a man behaving in an intimidating way is not mistreating anyone.

This is not about negative feelings, it is about bad behaviour.

And did you read post 280 where I posted an article written by a feminist talking about how she enjoys catcalls?

She's an outlier and doesn't change the substance of the argument.

I think we get to decide some issues as a community...I don't think masculinity or femininity are amongst those things though. Those tend to arise a bit too organically to be controlled by social mandate.

On a very very basic level....I think what we're talking about is generally, the problem of overly aggressive sexual behavior in men. There's some very basic biological underpinnings here that you can't simply change with a discussion.

Men won't stop wanting to have sex. Men are more sexually aggressive for the simple reason that women don't "reward" sexually passive men with...sex. In other words, the men who get sex are the ones who go out and seek it. Percentage-wise...it's a small number of us who are either attractive enough or high status enough to have women chasing after us.

The only way I can see to realistically change men's behavior long term is going to sound ridiculous. You'd have to convince women to have lots of sex with low-status, plain or unattractive, sexually passive men. If that were the world we lived in....you'd probably see men stop hitting on women all the time.

This "narrative" wasn't dreamt up by some group of men. Nobody really controls what they find attractive.

Have you ever looked at the "incel" community? It gets press when it's overly negative...but the reality is, it's a group of men who want females (and not just sex, but relationships as well) but cannot get them. For some, it's because they're honestly quite ugly. For others, it's because they have some serious problems/character flaws....

But there is a group in there who probably could have intimate relationships with women, but don't simply because they're intimidated, anxious, and lack any real self esteem or confidence. They really respect women...to the point of idealizing them a bit...and are paralyzed by fear of rejection. They would not approach a woman...even in an appropriate setting...and this leaves them depressed and alone because women will not approach them.

Now imagine if all guys were like that....you'd have a world where you never need fear walking around in public. No women would ever be harassed in the slightest way. In fact, if a woman did desire a relationship with a man....she could just approach a man whenever she pleases and decide the terms of the relationship herself.

Even if we could do that....and somehow avoid the depression and loneliness of all those single men who are likely to die alone....do you really think men and women would really be happy or better off in that world?

Be honest...how many men do you think you've tried to initiate some sort of romantic relationship with in your entire life? Do we need more than one hand to count the number?

My point was about what women find attractive....not trying to say women want to be raped. Give me some credit here.

And that's the irony here. When we're talking about men...the traits that attract them are almost always physical and it's a fairly short universal list. Men are fairly simple in this regard....and the result is that we're attracted to many women.

Women on the other hand are far more complex...they don't just go for the physical features like being tall, physically strong, deep voiced, wide jawed, and narrow eyed. They're also attracted by high social status (doctors, lawyers, CEOs) physically aggressive, socially aggressive, domineering, adventurous/risk-taking, etc. The fantasy is that not only will they find this man...but despite his almost immeasurable self reliance, control, and invincibility...he's going to open up to that one special woman who can see his brief vulnerability and fall passionately in love with her.

It's a complicated, contradictory list, and no guy is really going to live up to it lol....if anything, that's all the more reason not to just let women decide what masculinity should be.

I'm glad that you can appreciate why most women are attracted to the idea of an aggressive and even potentially violent man. I can certainly appreciate that no woman wants her man to be violent to her....just others...especially those who might be threatening to the woman herself.

Now all I really need you to realize is that isn't a simple request. When you spend hundreds of thousands of years sexually selecting men in favor of aggressive tendencies and behavior....well, sometimes that comes in combination with other traits and characteristics that result in dangerous behavior.

I don't think we can all just decide to get rid of it....and I'm certainly not convinced that we should.

So you think toxic masculinity, such as it is, is biologically hardwired. Myself, I'm much more on the "nurture" side of the nature/nurture argument.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I never said "automatically". I specifically said, several times, "likely". So what would be wrong with me telling a rape joke to a stranger if sometimes that person laughs? Or cheers them up when they're in a bad mood? Or gives them material to tell their friends later giving them a boost to their self-esteem that they're viewed as humorous?

So what's the likelihood that your catcalls are well received? Is it worth it for all the times it isn't?

To be honest, I don't think I've ever catcalled a woman in public....at least, not by the strict definition that some here claim to hold to.

That said, I have "approached" women in public...or at their place of work (not mine though...unless you count casual flirting lol).

As for the percentages of how often it "worked"??? I've got no idea...I know that it's considerably less than it failed...and not by a slim margin. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

I have seen guys catcall successfully...a couple of times in rather ridiculous conditions. I had one friend "holler" at a girl in her car, while we were standing at an intersection waiting for the light to change, in the rain lol.

I literally watched her roll down her window to hear what he was saying....and in a space of like 30-45 secs he talked her and her female friend into giving him a ride home. If you're wondering if they just left me standing in the rain....yes lol, they did....but they offered to give me a ride too. We just happened to be about a block from where I was going and I wasn't trying to crowd the situation.
 
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SummerMadness

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So you think toxic masculinity, such as it is, is biologically hardwired. Myself, I'm much more on the "nurture" side of the nature/nurture argument.
Toxic masculinity is so hardwired that we have an epidemic of gay catcallers hitting on straight men...
 
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