Rapture? What's that?

[redleghunter]

No, I see the 'harpazo' as a transportation. A physical removal from where we who remain alive are, to where Jesus is. That is: in the clouds, as He comes down to earth for His Millennium reign.
The incident where Philip was transported, Acts 8:39, demonstrates this.
What it certainly isn't; is a removal to heaven.

A transportation and transformation? The verses do say we will be changed.

 

[redleghunter]

No that's exactly what the word rapture means, at least the way Paul is using it in 1 Thessalonians 4:17:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
​

It's a Latin word, left over from the Vulgate, because technically those who never died aren't resurrected, they are translated. Rapture simply an all inclusive term.

Not resurrected but yet glorified bodies?

 

[jgr]

Was this in response to any particular post?

No, it is generalized observational commentary.

Such is common to poke others in the eye.

Nothing compared to some of the epithets I've received.

 

[redleghunter]

No, it is generalized observational commentary.


Nothing compared to some of the epithets I've received.

I am truly sorry to hear these eschatology threads get personal. Probably why I endure them with infrequency.

There's enough eisegesis to go around on these threads.

We should all take the Acts 1 advice and focus on what Christ actually commanded us.

 

[keras]

A transportation and transformation? The verses do say we will be changed.

1 Thess 4:15-17 doesn't say anything about a body change.
I guess you get that idea from 1 Corinthians 15:50-56. That prophecy is about the great White Throne Judgement, where those whose names are written in the Book of Life are given immortality. Nowhere does the Bible say immortality is conferred before the end of the Millennium.
The harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is merely a gathering of those who remain alive, by the Lords angels. Exactly as stated in Matthew 24:31

 

[redleghunter]

1 Thess 4:15-17 doesn't say anything about a body change.
I guess you get that idea from 1 Corinthians 15:50-56. That prophecy is about the great White Throne Judgement, where those whose names are written in the Book of Life are given immortality. Nowhere does the Bible say immortality is conferred before the end of the Millennium.
The harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is merely a gathering of those who remain alive, by the Lords angels. Exactly as stated in Matthew 24:31

The dead rise in both 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. Yet your point is those who are alive and remain don't.

 

[mark kennedy]

Not resurrected but yet glorified bodies?

You say that as if it were two different things.

 

[redleghunter]

You say that as if it were two different things.

They are not. Was just clarifying.

 

[mark kennedy]

They are not. Was just clarifying.

What on earth are you talking about?

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:42-45)
​

Sounds like your denying the resurrection.

 

[Dave Watchman]

1 Thess 4:15-17 doesn't say anything about a body change.
I guess you get that idea from 1 Corinthians 15:50-56. That prophecy is about the great White Throne Judgement, where those whose names are written in the Book of Life are given immortality. Nowhere does the Bible say immortality is conferred before the end of the Millennium.
The harpazo of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is merely a gathering of those who remain alive, by the Lords angels. Exactly as stated in Matthew 24:31

I never knew you thought this. I never knew anybody believed this. It sounds like you're saying that we don't get our resurrection bodies until after the thousand years are finished.

So if that's what you think, what are we when we meet the Lord in the air? Still of the flesh? That must be why you don't think we can go to the Father's House with many rooms. We'd need a space suit.

What about the many who sleep in the dust of the ground that shall awake. Some to everlasting life. Is that at the end of the tribulation, or at the end of the thousand years?

Nowhere does the Bible say immortality is conferred before the end of the Millennium.

"Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
​

And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above.

 

[redleghunter]

What on earth are you talking about?

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1 Cor. 15:42-45)
​

Sounds like your denying the resurrection.

Meaning no difference between glorified bodies and resurrection. I apologize for the confusion. I confused your post with another.

 

[redleghunter]

We'd need a space suit.

No that's really Star Wars.

 

[mark kennedy]

Meaning no difference between glorified bodies and resurrection. I apologize for the confusion. I confused your post with another.

I think I may have confused what you were trying to say, looks like a misunderstanding.

 

[keras]

I never knew you thought this. I never knew anybody believed this. It sounds like you're saying that we don't get our resurrection bodies until after the thousand years are finished.

I think that the resurrection of all the dead happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, Revelation 20:11-15, because that is what the Bible plainly says.
Only the few martyrs killed during the GT come to life again, Revelation 20:4, at Jesus' Return. And I do not see them being made immortal then, just brought back to life, as Lazarus was, so they will probably die again before the end of the Millennium. But over them, the second death has no power, Revelation 21:9, because their names are written in the Book of Life. They and all who are worthy Overcomers, Revelation 21:7, will receive the Victors heritage of Eternal life. At the GWT Judgement.

So if that's what you think, what are we when we meet the Lord in the air? Still of the flesh? That must be why you don't think we can go to the Father's House with many rooms. We'd need a space suit.

Did Philip need a space suit? Acts 8:39 The meeting with Jesus is just in the clouds, not in space. Anyway you, like most; have a fanciful idea of heaven being somewhere in outer space, whereas heaven is a spiritual place and is anywhere and everywhere. That is why Jesus said I will go away and where I go you cannot come, but He also said: I will be with you always....
When Jesus Returns, He will simply just become visible to us.

What about the many who sleep in the dust of the ground that shall awake. Some to everlasting life. Is that at the end of the tribulation, or at the end of the thousand years?

Just read the plain Words of Revelation: the Judgement only happens at the GWT, AFTER the Millennium.

 

[JacksBratt]

So is there a rapture or not?

Yes, of course there is.

Mathew 24:30-31
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Notice, here, that Christ does not come to the earth. He comes in the clouds. Later, at the end of the tribulation, He comes and stands on the Mount of Olives.

Revelation 3:10
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

He will Keep us from the trials that come to the whole world.

Daniel 12:1-2
1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Who do you think "Your People" is? That is the church, the Christians of all time. Dead or living.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Notice, we will not sleep, or die an earthly death. Dead will be raised and the living will be changed .... in a millisecond... the "twinkling of an eye"

1Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Now, I don't know about you, but this sounds like what EVERYONE means when they talk about the "Rapture"...... so..... enough of "the word "rapture" ain't in the Bible... A rose by any other name......

On a final note: We are to "ENCOURAGE" one another with these words...

NOT to deny, argue and criticize or ridicule for teaching of this miraculous and loving event.

 

[BABerean2]

Notice, here, that Christ does not come to the earth. He comes in the clouds. Later, at the end of the tribulation, He comes and stands on the Mount of Olives.

When Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonian church there were no chapters or verses.
It was one letter.

The word "descend" means to come down.

The timing of the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage. It must be imported from elsewhere to make the pre-trib doctrine work.


1Th 4:13　 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:　
1Th 4:17　 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)　

1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.　
(Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is a Second Coming event.)

1Th 5:3　 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.　
1Th 5:4　 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.　
1Th 5:5　 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.　
1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.　
1Th 5:7　 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.　
1Th 5:8　 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.　
1Th 5:9　 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,　
(The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.)

1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　
1Th 5:11　 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.　

 

[redleghunter]

When Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonian church there were no chapters or verses.

No of course not. However, there were transitional statements or words...which later generations noted and thus started a new 'chapter.'

 

[JacksBratt]

When Paul wrote the letter to the Thessalonian church there were no chapters or verses.
It was one letter.

The word "descend" means to come down.

The timing of the event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5 on the day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage. It must be imported from elsewhere to make the pre-trib doctrine work.


1Th 4:13　 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:　
1Th 4:17　 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)　

1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.　
(Based on 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, it is a Second Coming event.)

1Th 5:3　 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.　
1Th 5:4　 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.　
1Th 5:5　 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.　
1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.　
1Th 5:7　 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.　
1Th 5:8　 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.　
1Th 5:9　 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,　
(The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.)

1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　
1Th 5:11　 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.　

Thanks for your information. However, my post was not to debate when the rapture would happen.

This particular response, of mine, was in response to one poster asking, simply, is there a rapture or not, and another poster stating that there was no rapture...Posts # 18 and # 19

I am simply saying.... YES there is a rapture and it is supported, strongly, by scripture.

 

[JacksBratt]

The Rapture is a bit of 19th century fantasy.

So.... I guess we should comfort each other with the knowledge that we will suffer torturous persecution... to the point of death... yay................NOT

That is not biblical
That is not Christ's way
That is not truth.

 

[JacksBratt]

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”

The tribulation that the church, believers, and others in Christ, have endured are all the anger of Satan toward believers who perpetuate the word of God and the gospel.

The "Great Tribulation" is not against the believers..... It is God's wrath against the world.

The Church, Christians and whatever else you want to use to describe those who have been saved, will not suffer God's wrath....

Why would He leave them to face this.

As I have said before, "No Christian is going to survive a One World Government that searches out and kills any believer, for seven years....

Therefore a Post-Tribulation rapture would have a count of Zero live souls.... All would be "The dead in Christ">