Rapture? What's that?

[SeventyOne]

So is there a rapture or not?

Yes, prior to the outpouring of the Lord's wrath on the earth. Isaiah 26:19-21

 

[Hieronymus]

So is there a rapture or not?

Yes, but it's pre-wrath, not pre-tribulation.
Bummer huh?
I hope i die of old age or some disease before the .... really hits the fan.

 

[Jenniferdiana]

What do you mean pre-wrath? Sorry I don't know much about this stuff. Please explain. Are you scared hieronymus

 

[Hieronymus]

What do you mean pre-wrath? Sorry I don't know much about this stuff. Please explain.

Jesus returns with the wrath of God.
This is his 2nd coming.
Before that there is the great tribulation.
The saints (sanctified in Christ, the Christians) will be taken up when Jesus returns (the 2nd coming), before the Wrath of God is bestowed upon the earth and the "earth dwellers" (unbelievers who worship the beast).

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Jenniferdiana]

Jesus returns with the wrath of God.
This is his 2nd coming.
Before that there is the great tribulation.
The saints (sanctified in Christ, the Christians) will be taken up when Jesus returns (the 2nd coming), before the Wrath of God is bestowed upon the earth and the "earth dwellers" (unbelievers who worship the beast).

Do you really hope you die? Why are you afraid?

 

[Hieronymus]

Do you really hope you die? Why are you afraid?

In my opinion i have suffered enough already.
I don't want to suffer any more.
I'm tired of my miserable life and my miserable self.
I've had quite enough but the future isn't bright either.
I'm like a lonely foreigner on this crazy planet, i hope for citizenship in God's Kingdom eventually.


...yeah, i suffer from PDD and CFS (probably a symptom of PDD)... The medication makes it bearable though...
Don't be like me.

 

[Jenniferdiana]

In my opinion i have suffered enough already.
I don't want to suffer any more.
I'm tired of my miserable life and my miserable self.
I've had quite enough but the future isn't bright either.
I'm like a lonely foreigner on this crazy planet, i hope for citizenship in God's Kingdom eventually.


...yeah, i suffer from PDD and CFS (probably a symptom of PDD)... The medication makes it bearable though...
Don't be like me.

It's ok. I understand you completely. I know what's it like to feel miserable : /

 

[GingerBeer]

There's no rapture in the Bible, there's no rapture of the church, cos lk 1 his kingdom has no end, the church remains to the end, the second coming

The Rapture is a bit of 19th century fantasy.

 

[Oldmantook]

So is there a rapture or not?

Hint: Jesus' coming as a thief is commonly understood to refer to the "rapture" described 1 Thess 5:1-3. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

So the pertinent question is, when does Jesus come as a thief? If we know that answer to that, then we will know when the rapture occurs. Fortunately, we don't have to speculate to what the answer is for Jesus himself has already informed us of when he will come as a thief:
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (Rev 16:15-16).
According to these two verses, Jesus comes as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon. There is no pretrib rapture as the rapture when Jesus comes as a thief takes place after the great tribulation. In essence the rapture is the Second Coming of Jesus; one and the same event - not two.

 

[redleghunter]

Chapter and verse please

How good is your Latin?

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Caught up in Koine Greek is harpazō

In the Latin Vulgate "caught up" is rapiemur:


deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

Right there in your own Catholic Bible is the word "rapture!"

1 Thessalonians 4:1 (KJV)

Now maybe your question was really timing. Like when is it or that you see the same rapiemur as the resurrection.

Then again some prominent church fathers did believe in a "caught up" before the second coming of Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

The Rapture is a bit of 19th century fantasy.

More accurately a 2nd Century belief.

In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold.

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.(Irenaeus Against Heresies Book V Ch. 29. CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus))

Seems Irenaeus understood the Church would be caught up and then tribulation. That's 2nd century AD. He also believed in a yet to come man of sin, the tribulation and a literal (Revelation 20) millennial Kingdom on earth.

It was not until later in the 4th century views of end times like held by Irenaeus, chialism, was condemned as heresy. Interesting as a Doctor of the Church Irenaeus would be thrown under the bus two hundred years later.

Of course I would not claim the early early church theologians were pre-millenal rapture adherents. However they did believe in a literal futuristic eschatology.


Like the Didache :

CHAPTER 16
Warning that the end is at hand

1 "Watch" over your life: "let your lamps" be not quenched "and your loins" be not ungirded, but be "ready," for ye know not "the hour in which our Lord cometh." 2 But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time; 3 for in the last days the false prophets and the corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate; 4 for as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.

5 Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and "many shall be offended" and be lost, but "they who endure" in their faith "shall be saved" by the curse itself. 6 And "then shall appear the signs" of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: 7 but not of all the dead, but as it was said, "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him." 8 Then shall the world "see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven."

Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Kirsopp Lake).

 

[redleghunter]

Hint: Jesus' coming as a thief is commonly understood to refer to the "rapture" described 1 Thess 5:1-3. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

So the pertinent question is, when does Jesus come as a thief? If we know that answer to that, then we will know when the rapture occurs. Fortunately, we don't have to speculate to what the answer is for Jesus himself has already informed us of when he will come as a thief:
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon (Rev 16:15-16).
According to these two verses, Jesus comes as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon. There is no pretrib rapture as the rapture when Jesus comes as a thief takes place after the great tribulation. In essence the rapture is the Second Coming of Jesus; one and the same event - not two.

It's really not a secret if it is known He comes right before the battle of Armageddon. I mean some horrible and terrible tribulation will have already occurred.

Just saying.

 

[redleghunter]

The rapture is just another word for the resurrection, the question is absurd.

Not another word but can be coinciding event.

 

[redleghunter]

They refer to the second coming not a rapture

Well you are now changing the OP. You said the rapture is not in the Bible. You are wrong the word appears in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Now you are stating the timing. That's a different subject.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The times of Lot and Noah were everyday times.
They were taken away.
Their former world destroyed.

And the Lord Jesus says it will happen in times like unto Lot and Noah.

Taken away first
Destruction immediately after.

I actually see Enoch being translated as a type of the Rapture of the church.
Methuselah was a type of the saints who die during the Tribulation.
Noah and his family being protected on the Ark are a type of the 144,000 who are preserved or protected through the Tribulation.

 

[redleghunter]

How are we going to return with Christ to reign one thousand years if we are not taken away beforehand?

A very good point.

Some futurists see the Resurrection of the righteous happening simultaneously with the Second coming. They see this as the rapture event.

As you and I see Revelation 19 has the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs and then we mount horses with Christ for the second coming. That's the only problem I see in "timeline" of the post millennial view.

 

[redleghunter]

Honestly, it doesn't affect me either way. For the original Christians suffering came with the territory.

Suffering still comes with the territory. Ask our persecuted brethren in countries where they are beaten, beheaded etc.

I know you know this but the tribulation is different. It is judgement of those who are not His ekklesia. God is pouring out His wrath. The focus of the wrath is not His ekklesia.

 

[GingerBeer]

More accurately a 2nd Century belief.

Irenaeus wrote

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)

All things have been created for the service of man. The deceits, wickedness, and apostate power of Antichrist. This was prefigured at the deluge, as afterwards by the persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].
​

 

[redleghunter]

Irenaeus wrote

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 29)

All things have been created for the service of man. The deceits, wickedness, and apostate power of Antichrist. This was prefigured at the deluge, as afterwards by the persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance— in fact, as nothing; Isaiah 40:15 so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.

2. And there is therefore in this beast, when he comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire. Fittingly, therefore, shall his name possess the number six hundred and sixty-six, since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels. For Noah was six hundred years old when the deluge came upon the earth, sweeping away the rebellious world, for the sake of that most infamous generation which lived in the times of Noah. And [Antichrist] also sums up every error of devised idols since the flood, together with the slaying of the prophets and the cutting off of the just. For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man's coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men. Thus, then, the six hundred years of Noah, in whose time the deluge occurred because of the apostasy, and the number of the cubits of the image for which these just men were sent into the fiery furnace, do indicate the number of the name of that man in whom is concentrated the whole apostasy of six thousand years, and unrighteousness, and wickedness, and false prophecy, and deception; for which things' sake a cataclysm of fire shall also come [upon the earth].
​

Yes he was quite taken by the prophecies of Daniel. Not to mention Revelation.