Rapture? What's that?

RisenInJesus

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Jesus Returns with His angelic army, NOT rrrrrrrraptured Christians!
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man comes in His glory, all the holy angels with Him......
You directly contradict this and all the other scriptures that say He comes with the armies of heaven and those that say: His saints, are mis-translating His holy ones. the Greek word; 'hagious' can mean saints, but as the other prophesies say 'angels', that is correct.

It is sheer 'star wars' fantasy to believe we Christians will ride white horses, waving gold swords, with Jesus at His Return. The depth of this delusion is incredible!

Angels are not "the wife" of the Lamb, it is the church, the saints who are arrayed in fine white linen, the righteousness of Christ who return with Him. So it is not fantasy, it is the Word of God...

And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” 10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”


11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
Revelation 19:6-14
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, but it's pre-wrath, not pre-tribulation.
Bummer huh?
I hope i die of old age or some disease before the .... really hits the fan.
Good point. I was reading to my aunt two days before she passed her favorite Gospel passage (John 14). She remarked with a smile that the rapture was clearly "academic" for her now. :)

What's important is what we do with the time we personally have left for the Lord. Not worry about how much time we have. Keep those lamps trimmed is the command. A challenge actually.
 
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jgr

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And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.(Irenaeus Against Heresies Book V Ch. 29. CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, V.29 (St. Irenaeus))

Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

Irenaeus

Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: �the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],� as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, �There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.� For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus� writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
 
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redleghunter

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Jesus returns with the wrath of God.
This is his 2nd coming.
Before that there is the great tribulation.
The saints (sanctified in Christ, the Christians) will be taken up when Jesus returns (the 2nd coming), before the Wrath of God is bestowed upon the earth and the "earth dwellers" (unbelievers who worship the beast).
Everything past the 5th seal is wrath.
 
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Oldmantook

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It's really not a secret if it is known He comes right before the battle of Armageddon. I mean some horrible and terrible tribulation will have already occurred.

Just saying.
I never said it was secret. Where did you get that from my response? It's not supposed to be secret since Jesus informed us when he comes back as thief.
 
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redleghunter

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Dr. Thomas Ice, Executive Director, Pre-Trib Research Center:

Irenaeus

Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: �the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation],� as noted below:

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, �There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.� For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.[7]

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus� writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism.
One way to look at it. Notice Irenaeus says church caught up and then says contest of the righteous. He did not use the word church again.

Now I agree Irenaeus was probably not referring to Israel in this passage as he would see church as all the faithful .

However I do find it interesting he did not use "Church" again and used "righteous."

After Revelation 3, we no longer see the term church used. Revelation is very "Hebrew." Meaning speaks much of Israel and "the nation's." Much like the OT prophets.

So sure Irenaeus could be taken both ways and glad to see Ice is being honest in his assessment.
 
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redleghunter

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I never said it was secret. Where did you get that from my response? It's not supposed to be secret since Jesus informed us when he comes back as thief.

Thieves announce their intentions?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Suffering still comes with the territory. Ask our persecuted brethren in countries where they are beaten, beheaded etc.

I know you know this but the tribulation is different. It is judgement of those who are not His ekklesia. God is pouring out His wrath. The focus of the wrath is not His ekklesia.
Suffering still comes with the territory regardless, I'm familiar with the wrath and persecution distinction. If you trust in the resurrection, why does it matter how you die?
 
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redleghunter

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Suffering still comes with the territory regardless, I'm familiar with the wrath and persecution distinction. If you trust in the resurrection, why does it matter how you die?
It doesn't matter how one dies. The way someone dies has nothing to do with the rapture.

Usually those who ridicule the pre trib rapture theory make comments questioning the courage of the Christian who adhere to the position. Not you of course but I've seen such. Which is quite petty.
 
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jgr

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Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for “rapture wimps” in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.


But the promise is only for those who resolve not to be “rapture wimps.”
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It doesn't matter how one dies. The way someone dies has nothing to do with the rapture.

Usually those who ridicule the pre trib rapture theory make comments questioning the courage of the Christian who adhere to the position. Not you of course but I've seen such. Which is quite petty.
I suppose it would make good segway in that case.
.
The only issue I have with that phenomena is that the mindset is not the same as the original church in that sense, leading to further conclusions that it was made up to cater to a culture that had an easier life.
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The main issue I have with the "trib" rapture theories is that a cloud of confusion tends to proceed such discussions, and God is no such author. Which leads me to an Acts 1:6-8 conclusion, in that these matters are not really part of the church's original purpose being times that the Father has set in his power. Of course I'm also interested in these things, but the Acts passage I keep in mind in regards to why there are so many opinions.
 
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keras

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Then you must see the harpazo as the resurrection.
No, I see the 'harpazo' as a transportation. A physical removal from where we who remain alive are, to where Jesus is. That is: in the clouds, as He comes down to earth for His Millennium reign.
The incident where Philip was transported, Acts 8:39, demonstrates this.
What it certainly isn't; is a removal to heaven.
 
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mark kennedy

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Not another word but can be coinciding event.
No that's exactly what the word rapture means, at least the way Paul is using it in 1 Thessalonians 4:17:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It's a Latin word, left over from the Vulgate, because technically those who never died aren't resurrected, they are translated. Rapture simply an all inclusive term.
 
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DennisTate

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The rapture apparently is mentioned in Matthew about people being snatched away at a 50/50 ratio it is compared to events like noah's flood when bad people were taken away. So i'm not exactly sure why people want a badge of honour of being bad people.

I personally did not take the Rapture idea seriously at all until I read an explanation for it from near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby:
(Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com):
He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you 'might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"

Until reading this I only believed in the Second Coming and felt that this event would happen then.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I personally did not take the Rapture idea seriously at all until I read an explanation for it from near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby:
(Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com):


Until reading this I only believed in the Second Coming and felt that this event would happen then.
I understand what the scripture says about it from different angles, it's just the fruit that comes from it, generally doesn't impress me. Thanks for sharing
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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redleghunter

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Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.
Was this in response to any particular post?

Indeed the suffering of the saints throughout history for the cause of the Gospel is well noted.

The tribulation as evidenced in Revelation is God pouring out His wrath and judgement on the unbelieving peoples and nations. Will the righteous suffer and be martyred during this period at the hand of the man of sin and his minions? Yes of course. Will it be the Church? That is the debatable point. It is the time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).

I heard one poster on another thread make the claim that "Christ will not evacuate His troops before a great fight."

Such is common to poke others in the eye. But as a non military type he fails to know what the great generals do before a big engagement. After serving several years on 2 star and 3 star General staffs, all great military commanders muster their troops to mass on the enemy.

The "caught up" is the mustering of forces.
 
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redleghunter

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The main issue I have with the "trib" rapture theories is that a cloud of confusion tends to proceed such discussions, and God is no such author. Which leads me to an Acts 1:6-8 conclusion, in that these matters are not really part of the church's original purpose being times that the Father has set in his power. Of course I'm also interested in these things, but the Acts passage I keep in mind in regards to why there are so many opinions.
Much wisdom in the above.
 
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