Futurist Only Rapture timing thread - pretrib, pre-wrath or post-trib?

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Timtofly]

The Messiah's second coming is stated as coming like a thief in the night. But also stated as being accompanied with great signs. So they can not be both come like a thief in the night if the coming is marked with great signs.

The thief in the night is not for humans. It is for Satan. Souls are being snatched away. Why do you think Satan is not parading around the earth?

Because if Satan was parading around the earth, people would be forced to examine who God and Jesus Christ are. Why are God and Christ not walking around drawing crowds to follow them? Without faith it is impossible to please God.

The Second Coming is not in two parts. It only happens one time prior to the Trumpets and Thunders. If there is an Armageddon it is because Christ retreated for 42 months, and God allowed Satan total control of the earth. This time Satan could kill all whom Satan desires to kill. Unlike Job, Satan will not need to ask for each step. This is not the time of tribulation, God's Wrath, nor Christ judging the world. This is the time where humans are the living play things Satan has unrestrained access to do with as he pleases. The church in Paradise is not subject to this time on earth. The Second Coming happened months prior.

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth during the tribulation of the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. This is the final harvest before Satan gets the leftovers. There should not even be leftovers. The church is in control of the vineyard and should always be reaping a golden harvest. Yet this golden harvest fails because the church apostasized, and failed to repent and were foolish at the Second Coming. To not be ready at the 6th Seal, and failing to even understand any of the Seals as they were opened, means the church was caught off guard and in the same boat with Satan.

Now the vineyard is taken from the church and probably will be given to Satan. It is probable because it is still future and the church can still repent, and change the world. There is no pre-seal Second Coming. So unless one removes the Seals from the alledged 7 year event, pre-trib has become pre-wrath. Also the "tribulation of those days" started with the 1st Seal being opened, so all eschatology is post the first 4 Seal "tribulation of those days", just as Jesus claimed. Jesus did not claim post 7th Trumpet.

The Second Coming is unexpected, because no one can know when it happens. 25% or close to 2 billion die during the first 4 Seals "tribulation of those days" period. Another 2 billion in the 6 Trumpets, and assuming God is consistent, 2 billion in the Thunders. 6 billion people dying in less than 3.5 years is an unprecedented time of trouble. Except the 3.5 year countdown started when the 1st Seal was opened. This is the final harvest. If it is true and there are 2 billion of the church currently on earth, at the 6th Seal is that the 2 billion mentioned in the 4th Seal or besides the 6 billion souls removed and sent to Death or sheol? Will all be dead before Satan even gets his 42 months?

All should be dead. It is the end of sin. It is the end of Adam's 6000 years of labor. It is time to cleanse the earth with fire and make it Holy. It is the time for the perfect, sin free, 1000 year reign of Christ, where Satan is removed and locked in a pit.

 

[Timtofly]

Anyone reading that text in Matthew 24:29-31 should notice at least 3 things. The coming in verse 30 is not meaning before the trib or even during the trib, it is meaning after the trib. After the trib means post trib, obviously. The way some try and get around this, there is more than one coming. The coming meant in 1 Thessalonians 4 is not the same coming meant in Matthew 24:30, so on and so on.

The way to get around it is to not ignore the words "those days". Jesus did not say after the tribulation. Jesus said after the tribulation of those days. Which days? John in Revelation 6 claims the days of the first 4 Seals, when the first almost 2 billion people die. In the Trumpets, another 2 billion people die. We are not told about the Thunders. This is the final harvest. All humanity has to die to shed Adam's corruptible, sin nature bodies.

Paul says only the dead corruptible bodies in Christ, alive and remain at the Second Coming will not physically die. They will be changed, because those souls are already in physically dead, corruptible, sin filled bodies.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Is the hour of the Lord's return to rapture the church the part Scripture warns us that we cannot know, or does it apply to the final second return at the end of tribulation for the beginning of the 1,000 year reign, or can we not have a clue about the timeframe of either? And does hour and day also mean year, such that we cannot know a the year either of either the return of the Lord to meet us in the clouds at the rapture of the church, or can we also not know the year of His return in glory to establish his 1000 year reign on earth during the millenium?

 

[Timtofly]

The hour of the Second Coming itself when Christ sets foot on the MT. of Olives.

Notice in this verse the sign of His coming is His Coming.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Jamdoc]

I marked this as Futurist only so we don't get into an argument on whether tribulation was completed in AD 70 or is yet to come.
For those who hold that most of Revelation (4 to end) is yet to come, what is the Sciptural evidence you see for a pre-trib rapture of the church, or a mid trib/pre-wrath rapture, or post-trib rapture?

Scripture to support Pre-Wrath:

Matthew 24 was to believers in Christ, the people who would found the Church so it is applicable to the church despite what pretribulationists claim (that it's to unbelieving Jews. not a single unbelieving Jew was present for the Olivet discourse, and unbelieving Jews don't read the gospels because to them they're Gentile books)
Matthew 24 says that the rapture is after the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31) Jesus also gave no signs like water turning to blood or hailstones weighing a talent, etc. But the signs He did give parallel Revelation 6's first 6 seals in the same order.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 says we're not appointed to wrath, but 2 Thessalonians 2 does say that before Jesus returns and gathers us to Him we'll see the apostasy, and the Man of Sin revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4). The way that fits is that we are here for the Abomination of Desolation, but raptured before the trumpets and bowls. Which fits Revelation 6, and Matthew 24.

Revelation can be read (and it is how I read it) as 2 narratives. Chapters 4-11 are 1 Narrative, the timing resets at Revelation 12, because in Revelation 10:7 we are told that the 7th trumpet finishes the Mystery of God, and it is a very conclusive ending. To read that Jesus has claimed the kingdoms of the world as His Kingdoms forever and ever and believe that He.... turns control back over to Satan to give to the beast? Makes no sense at all.
But in Revelation 4-11 you get a Chronology of Tribulation (seals, particularly the 5th which is the Great Tribulation), then the Return of Christ and rapture (6th seal in Revelation 6), followed by the saints in heaven (Revelation 7:9-17), followed by the wrath of God (the Trumpets) and Jesus setting up His Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 11:15)
The second Narrative is from Revelation 12-20, it focuses on different details.
In this Narrative you're introduced to the Tribulation from the focus of the Antichrist and the False Prophet, followed by the Return of Jesus in the clouds and rapture (Revelation 14:14-20, note the first harvest is done by Jesus on the clouds, and they are not put through the wrath of God, the second harvest is done by an angel, those are put through the wrath of God), followed by the saints in heaven (Revelation 15:2-4), followed by the wrath of God (the bowls in Revelation 16, the destruction of Babylon, and Armageddon), followed by Jesus setting up His Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20)

It's consistent, and consistent with Matthew 24, and both letters to the Thessalonians.

As the cherry on top, it fits Daniel 12:1-3, which shows that first there is the Tribulation, followed by the resurrection. It flies in the face of Pretrib, they have to go hard dispensationalist to sidestep it.

As another cherry on top, it fits Isaiah 26:19-21, which shows that the resurrection comes before the wrath of God.

19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

The puzzle does not fit together consistently if you believe that the resurrection takes place before the 70th week, because of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Matthew 24:29-31 and Daniel 12:1-3.
The puzzle does not fit together consistently if you believe the resurrection takes place after the 70th week, because of 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Isaiah 26:19-21.

Pre wrath however, fits all of it consistently.

 

[Jamdoc]

Are people who are engaged in a war going to as verse 38 states. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Verse 38 is describing a regular type of life atmosphere, not one of war.

This can happen in pre wrath because what is happening is that Christians are being persecuted but for those who take the mark of the beast, life is going on as normal, they'll be having weddings, they'll be buying and selling, etc.
It's only the Christians who won't be having a normal life. The rest of the world will be saying peace and safety. Because there will be a pause after the first 4 seals where there is a relative peace, but there is no real peace, as Christians will be getting martyred.

 

[d taylor]

This can happen in pre wrath because what is happening is that Christians are being persecuted but for those who take the mark of the beast, life is going on as normal, they'll be having weddings, they'll be buying and selling, etc.
It's only the Christians who won't be having a normal life. The rest of the world will be saying peace and safety. Because there will be a pause after the first 4 seals where there is a relative peace, but there is no real peace, as Christians will be getting martyred.

I will say the first part, may be the first year or two may be life as normal.

So a little virus shuts down the whole world.
And what will be going on in the tribulation will be much worse, and life will be going on as usual.

Here are a few examples of the tribulation.

And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

 

[Jamdoc]

I will say the first part, may be the first year or two may be life as normal.

So a little virus shuts down the whole world.
And what will be going on in the tribulation will be much worse, and life will be going on as usual.

Here are a few examples of the tribulation.

And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

That's where there's a failure of understanding.
the trumpets and vials are not "tribulation" (persecution by men), they are God's Wrath.

Jesus said that immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon would darken (Matthew 24:29)
when does the sun and moon darken? At the 6th seal, which is before any of the trumpets or bowls.
So guess what?
The tribulation is over at that point in time, meaning that the trumpets and bowls are not tribulation, but God's wrath.
Revelation 6:17 makes it clear.

 

[Francis Drake]

Matt 24 lays it all out

"Immediately after the tribulation"

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

that fits 1 Thess 4:13-18 perfectly

The rapture and the Rev 19 second coming are at the same time - the saints are taken to heaven - the wicked are destroyed.

The Tribulation period is given as a very specific number of days, specific number of months, and specific number of years, ie. 7 years. Scripture also indicates that the Rapture will comes like a thief in the night. Therefore it cannot be at the end of the Tribulation because the date would be clearly projected from day one of the Tribulation.

If the rapture comes as a thief in the night, on an unknown date, it has to be at the start, ie, the trigger of the Tribulation is when the Bride of Christ leaves the earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Tribulation period is given as a very specific number of days, specific number of months, and specific number of years, ie. 7 years. Scripture also indicates that the Rapture will comes like a thief in the night. Therefore it cannot be at the end of the Tribulation because the date would be clearly projected from day one of the Tribulation.

If the rapture comes as a thief in the night, on an unknown date, it has to be at the start, ie, the trigger of the Tribulation is when the Bride of Christ leaves the earth.

the 70th week is not all "the tribulation".
"the seven year tribulation" is an unbiblical expression never given in the bible
Let's examine what is, and what is not the "Great Tribulation" using Jesus own words

Matthew 24:15-22

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So, Jesus terms the Great Tribulation as not starting until after the Abomination of Desolation, which is the midpoint of the 70th week. 3.5 years of the 70th week, is not the "Tribulation" that shoots down the unbiblical "7 year tribulation" nonsense right there.

Secondly when does the Great Tribulation end, according to Jesus

Matthew 24:29

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

When does that happen?
Right here
Revelation 6:12

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

That's before any of the trumpets or vials.

So what is the Great Tribulation?
it's a period of time after the midpoint, and ends AT LEAST 5 months before Armageddon at the end of the 70th week.
It's not the whole 70th week.

 

[d taylor]

_
​

In the first half of the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years). God will use 144,000 Jews to evangelize the earth, to conduct a world wide revival.

Why because the church has been taken away, in the rapture, leaving no believers on earth . That will occur when The Messiah returns out of Heaven to receive and meet His church in the air/clouds. Where they will Tabernacle for 7 years during the Tribulation.

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
​

 

[Jamdoc]

_
​

In the first half of the Tribulation (first 3 1/2 years). God will use 144,000 Jews to evangelize the earth, to conduct a world wide revival.

Why because the church has been taken away, in the rapture, leaving no believers on earth . That will occur when The Messiah returns out of Heaven to receive and meet His church in the air/clouds. Where they will Tabernacle for 7 years during the Tribulation.

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
​

A common teaching, but not actually what's written.
They are the first fruits. Nothing is said about them evangelizing.

also I see I'm going to have to drill this into you (not just you, but people in general, they have a misconception)
The Great Tribulation does not start until AFTER the midpoint
Read Matthew 24.

 

[Timtofly]

A common teaching, but not actually what's written.
They are the first fruits. Nothing is said about them evangelizing.

also I see I'm going to have to drill this into you (not just you, but people in general, they have a misconception)
The Great Tribulation does not start until AFTER the midpoint
Read Matthew 24.

The Great Tribulation is while Christ is on earth. Satan in charge is the last 42 months before the Millennium starts. There are not two "halves". There is the final harvest, and Satan gets the leftovers. The winepress indicates the earth is a vinyard. The winepress indicates the harvest has been gathered and now the wine is pressed out of the grapes. Satan is only given control if there are more grapes to harvest. That is the symbolism of the tribulation.

 

[d taylor]

A common teaching, but not actually what's written.
They are the first fruits. Nothing is said about them evangelizing.

also I see I'm going to have to drill this into you (not just you, but people in general, they have a misconception)
The Great Tribulation does not start until AFTER the midpoint
Read Matthew 24.

The whole 7 years is known as the great Tribulation.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Great Tribulation is while Christ is on earth. Satan in charge is the last 42 months before the Millennium starts. There are not two "halves". There is the final harvest, and Satan gets the leftovers. The winepress indicates the earth is a vinyard. The winepress indicates the harvest has been gathered and now the wine is pressed out of the grapes. Satan is only given control if there are more grapes to harvest. That is the symbolism of the tribulation.

That's not what's written.
Jesus says that the sun and moon darken immediately after the tribulation.
That happens at the 6th seal.
and those signs signal His coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Jesus does not return until after the sun and moon darken at the 6th seal, which is the end of the Tribulation, but before any of the trumpets or bowls.
anything that happens after the 6th seal is not the Great Tribulation
anything that happens before the Abomination of Desolation (at the midpoint) is not the Great Tribulation.

 

[Jamdoc]

The whole 7 years is known as the great Tribulation.

That is a false teaching.
Because Jesus defined the Great Tribulation for us.
Any Pastor that teaches that the entire 70th week of Daniel is the Great Tribulation is ignoring the words of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 24:15-22
Matthew 24:29
those are the boundaries of the Great Tribulation.
It's after the midpoint, until the sun and moon darken (6th seal).
any other definition, is unbiblical.

 

[Francis Drake]

the 70th week is not all "the tribulation".
it's a period of time after the midpoint, and ends AT LEAST 5 months before Armageddon at the end of the 70th week.
It's not the whole 70th week.

In your efforts to find irrelevant faults, you completely missed the point I was making.
I merely pointed out that end time scripture has a specific period of years/months/days etc. generally known as the Tribulation, and never claimed it referred to the whole Tribulation. So however you divide that period, it has to have a significant starting point otherwise you cannot identify the mid or end point, and unless the Rapture triggers the starting point, it cannot come suddenly as a thief in the night.
ie. If the Rapture is in the mid or end point of that specifically identified period, once that period starts, the Rapture date can be precisely determined.

 

[Timtofly]

That's not what's written.
Jesus says that the sun and moon darken immediately after the tribulation.
That happens at the 6th seal.
and those signs signal His coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Jesus does not return until after the sun and moon darken at the 6th seal, which is the end of the Tribulation, but before any of the trumpets or bowls.
anything that happens after the 6th seal is not the Great Tribulation
anything that happens before the Abomination of Desolation (at the midpoint) is not the Great Tribulation.

Jesus does not say after the Great Tribulation. Jesus says after the tribulation of those days. The opening of the 4 Seals is a separate tribulation from the Trumpets and Thunders. The Trumpets and Thunders is a separate tribulation from Satan's 42 months.

The church is still here during the tribulation of those days, the Seals. The church leaves, and Christ is on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders, the final harvest.

Then Satan may get 42 months if any thing is left over.

 

[Timtofly]

In your efforts to find irrelevant faults, you completely missed the point I was making.
I merely pointed out that end time scripture has a specific period of years/months/days etc. generally known as the Tribulation, and never claimed it referred to the whole Tribulation. So however you divide that period, it has to have a significant starting point otherwise you cannot identify the mid or end point, and unless the Rapture triggers the starting point, it cannot come suddenly as a thief in the night.
ie. If the Rapture is in the mid or end point of that specifically identified period, once that period starts, the Rapture date can be precisely determined.

No one is going to know even when the Seals are being opened, until after the fact. The Second Coming does not trigger any length of time. The Second Coming makes the Trumpets and Thunders shorter in length. God has declared exactly when time is up. The Second Coming happens prior to time being up, but after the first 5 Seals have been opened.

The Trumpets and Thunders cannot start until Christ is on the earth.