Futurist Only Rapture timing thread - pretrib, pre-wrath or post-trib?

[Francis Drake]

No one is going to know even when the Seals are being opened, until after the fact. The Second Coming does not trigger any length of time. The Second Coming makes the Trumpets and Thunders shorter in length. God has declared exactly when time is up. The Second Coming happens prior to time being up, but after the first 5 Seals have been opened.

The Trumpets and Thunders cannot start until Christ is on the earth.

Then there's little point in giving such exact timescales if they have no use.

 

[Jamdoc]

In your efforts to find irrelevant faults, you completely missed the point I was making.
I merely pointed out that end time scripture has a specific period of years/months/days etc. generally known as the Tribulation, and never claimed it referred to the whole Tribulation. So however you divide that period, it has to have a significant starting point otherwise you cannot identify the mid or end point, and unless the Rapture triggers the starting point, it cannot come suddenly as a thief in the night.
ie. If the Rapture is in the mid or end point of that specifically identified period, once that period starts, the Rapture date can be precisely determined.

That's still not true, only for "post trib" (really post 70th week) or what is called mid trib rapture which claims the rapture is at the midpoint (I've never even talked to a proponent of that position), those are on specific days.
both "pre trib" and pre wrath have an undetermined date. for "pretrib" it's some undetermined date before the 70th week, for Pre wrath it's some undetermined date after the midpoint. Traditional "post trib" is the one that makes the least amount of sense because even Satan and the beast know when Armageddon is, they have gathered the armies of the earth to Armageddon waiting for Jesus. They knew when that was happening.
Douggg's "any time" position is an undetermined date either before the 70th week or within the first half of the 70th week.

 

[DavidPT]

Traditional "post trib" is the one that makes the least amount of sense because even Satan and the beast know when Armageddon is, they have gathered the armies of the earth to Armageddon waiting for Jesus. They knew when that was happening.

Matthew 24:29-31 already proves post trib unless one wants to argue there is more that one coming of Christ in the end of this age.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If verse 29 says immediately after the tribulation of those days, how can that not mean that the trib of those days are finsihed at that point? The coming in verse 30, is it before the trib of those days, during the trib of those days, or after the trib of those days?

Obviously, it is after the trib of those days. That makes the coming post trib. If there is another coming before the one meant in verse 30 occurs, where in the NT can we find this other coming that is not meaning this coming in verse 30?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Verse 11 says---this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How many times did He do that at the time, taken up into heaven? Only once, or more than once? Obviously, the former. In order for the return to be in like manner He can only come one time, not multiple times. That means every place in the NT invoving a coming in the end of this age, they are all refrring to the same coming, but from different perspectives. Does one think God is not able to multi-task? Surely He can do multiple things at the same time during one event, that one event being the 2nd coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Then there's little point in giving such exact timescales if they have no use.

What exact timescales? Satan's 42 months is an exact 42 months. It is not longer than, nor shorter than, if it happens at all.


This is an allowance to defeat the saints. It is not based on a fact that Satan is stronger than God. Satan had to ask permission, and that permission is connected to the Atonement Covenant made on the Cross. The details are unknown to us, just the result.

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 24:29-31 already proves post trib unless one wants to argue there is more that one coming of Christ in the end of this age.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If verse 29 says immediately after the tribulation of those days, how can that not mean that the trib of those days are finsihed at that point? The coming in verse 30, is it before the trib of those days, during the trib of those days, or after the trib of those days?

Obviously, it is after the trib of those days. That makes the coming post trib. If there is another coming before the one meant in verse 30 occurs, where in the NT can we find this other coming that is not meaning this coming in verse 30?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Verse 11 says---this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How many times did He do that at the time, taken up into heaven? Only once, or more than once? Obviously, the former. In order for the return to be in like manner He can only come one time, not multiple times. That means every place in the NT invoving a coming in the end of this age, they are all refrring to the same coming, but from different perspectives. Does one think God is not able to multi-task? Surely He can do multiple things at the same time during one event, that one event being the 2nd coming.

Not 2 comings. 3 different tribulations.

The Seals are the part of that tribulation considered those days.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the Great Tribulation.

Satan's 42 months are in the middle of the week of the 7th sound from the archangel. Gabriel is the first Trump of God that sounds at the 6th Seal. 6 others sound, and 7 more angels sound as Thunders. Then Gabriel makes the 7th and final sound that is to last a week of days. This is the week that is split in half for Satan's 42 months. There is not a 3.5 year period after Satan's 42 months. This 42 months does not split in half, 7 years. The 42 months is not the second half of 7 years. The 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation keep getting shorter. If the first Seal is opened, and a year passes, then the Great Tribulation can only then be 2.5 years. If 2 years pass after the 1st Seal is opened, then the GT can only be 1.5 years in length. The length of the GT can not be determined or set in prophetic stone. It gets shorter the longer the time is between the 1st and 6th Seal.

That is the point of no man knowing the timing of the Second Coming until Christ appears on earth as the Lamb. And God on the throne as the Lord of the vineyard is present as well. It is the point that God shortens the GT so more humans can accept the Atonement before the church is removed.

Claiming Jesus is only on earth after the final harvest goes against Jesus sitting on a throne in Jerusalem and separating the sheep from the goats, which is what the 6 Trumpets symbolize. The 7 Thunders are the gathering of the tares and the wheat. Christ is present for the final harvest, not looking down from heaven. If Satan gets a throne, it is the one in Jerusalem, and Satan will only sit there 42 months. He will be defeated at Armageddon 42 months, 3.5 days later.

 

[Jamdoc]

Matthew 24:29-31 already proves post trib unless one wants to argue there is more that one coming of Christ in the end of this age.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If verse 29 says immediately after the tribulation of those days, how can that not mean that the trib of those days are finsihed at that point? The coming in verse 30, is it before the trib of those days, during the trib of those days, or after the trib of those days?

Obviously, it is after the trib of those days. That makes the coming post trib. If there is another coming before the one meant in verse 30 occurs, where in the NT can we find this other coming that is not meaning this coming in verse 30?

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Verse 11 says---this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

How many times did He do that at the time, taken up into heaven? Only once, or more than once? Obviously, the former. In order for the return to be in like manner He can only come one time, not multiple times. That means every place in the NT invoving a coming in the end of this age, they are all refrring to the same coming, but from different perspectives. Does one think God is not able to multi-task? Surely He can do multiple things at the same time during one event, that one event being the 2nd coming.

The thing is you're ignoring Matthew 24:29
Jesus said the Tribulations are over when the sun and moon darken
That happens at 6th seal
not 7th trumpet
not 7th bowl.
6th seal.

as for the second coming. It's not one singular event.
Was Jesus' first coming just His birth?
No.
it was everything from His birth until His ascension into heaven.

Jesus' second coming is everything from His appearance in the clouds after the 6th seal... until forever.

 

[Jamdoc]

Not 2 comings. 3 different tribulations.

The Seals are the part of that tribulation considered those days.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the Great Tribulation.

Satan's 42 months are in the middle of the week of the 7th sound from the archangel. Gabriel is the first Trump of God that sounds at the 6th Seal. 6 others sound, and 7 more angels sound as Thunders. Then Gabriel makes the 7th and final sound that is to last a week of days. This is the week that is split in half for Satan's 42 months. There is not a 3.5 year period after Satan's 42 months. This 42 months does not split in half, 7 years. The 42 months is not the second half of 7 years. The 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation keep getting shorter. If the first Seal is opened, and a year passes, then the Great Tribulation can only then be 2.5 years. If 2 years pass after the 1st Seal is opened, then the GT can only be 1.5 years in length. The length of the GT can not be determined or set in prophetic stone. It gets shorter the longer the time is between the 1st and 6th Seal.

That is the point of no man knowing the timing of the Second Coming until Christ appears on earth as the Lamb. And God on the throne as the Lord of the vineyard is present as well. It is the point that God shortens the GT so more humans can accept the Atonement before the church is removed.

Claiming Jesus is only on earth after the final harvest goes against Jesus sitting on a throne in Jerusalem and separating the sheep from the goats, which is what the 6 Trumpets symbolize. The 7 Thunders are the gathering of the tares and the wheat. Christ is present for the final harvest, not looking down from heaven. If Satan gets a throne, it is the one in Jerusalem, and Satan will only sit there 42 months. He will be defeated at Armageddon 42 months, 3.5 days later.

The trumpets and bowls are NOT the Great Tribulation!
The Great Tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal, before any trumpets or bowls start!

Jesus gave NO signs comparable to the trumpets and bowls, and the things He DID talk about in Matthew 24 parallel Revelation 6

 

[Timtofly]

The trumpets and bowls are NOT the Great Tribulation!
The Great Tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal, before any trumpets or bowls start!

Jesus gave NO signs comparable to the trumpets and bowls, and the things He DID talk about in Matthew 24 parallel Revelation 6

The Trumpets are calling out National Israel from the rest of the Nations. It is the call of assembly.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That is not the church, that is calling out the sheep and goats and the angels are removing their souls and sending them to their eternal destination. Death and the Lake of Fire for the goats and the 1000 year reign for the sheep. It is a time of tribulation because the trumpet sounds bring judgments as John saw those judgments happen.

John says the seals are opened and trouble happens, 25% of humanity is killed, but that is not the end. After the tribulation of those days in the first 4 Seals, Christ appears along with God on the throne and the angels come like fig leaves falling to the ground. Christ sets up a throne and calls out Israel. He and the 144k sows the seeds to harvest the wheat, and Satan sows tares. This is the harvest of the Nations. God is systematically removing Adam's flesh and blood from the earth.

Satan then gets the leftovers. Now the time comes when the choice is between being marked as cursed, and removed from the Lamb's book of life, or get one's head chopped off. Beheading is the final harvest, for the resurrection in Revelation 20:4.

 

[DavidPT]

The Great Tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal, before any trumpets or bowls start!

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


What you seem to be suggesting is this.

the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(meaning the 6th seal)---followed by the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, which means the time of the 2Ws(who are stilll here during the 6th trumpet) fit after all of this and so does the 42 month reign of the beast(makes war and kills the 2Ws during the 6th trumpet) fit after the sun is darkened, rather than this 42 month reign fitting during the trib of those days, meaning the GT that precedes the sun going dark and the stars falling from heaven---followed by the coming in verse 30 and the gathering in verse 31.

To me this alone proves that not all of Revelation could possibly be in chronological order since it doesn't make sense to apply the time of the 2Ws and the time of the 42 month reign of the beast after the GT rather than before and during the GT instead. Which at least means that not all of the trumpets follow the 6th seal, but that some or maybe even all of them precede the 6th seal instead.

 

[DavidPT]

The thing is you're ignoring Matthew 24:29
Jesus said the Tribulations are over when the sun and moon darken
That happens at 6th seal
not 7th trumpet
not 7th bowl.
6th seal.

as for the second coming. It's not one singular event.
Was Jesus' first coming just His birth?
No.
it was everything from His birth until His ascension into heaven.

Jesus' second coming is everything from His appearance in the clouds after the 6th seal... until forever.

If you look at post #49 addressed to you, it doesn't look like I'm the one ignoring things, but that it is you who are instead. The time of the 2Ws and the time of the 42 month reign of the beast couldn't possibly be meaning after the 6th seal. That is clearly meaning before and during the trib of those days, the GT, being where the time of the 2Ws and 42 month reign of the beast fits. The GT, according to Matthew 24 is before the time of the 6th seal, where it appears that you at least agree with that.

 

[Jamdoc]

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


What you seem to be suggesting is this.

the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken(meaning the 6th seal)---followed by the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, which means the time of the 2Ws(who are stilll here during the 6th trumpet) fit after all of this and so does the 42 month reign of the beast(makes war and kills the 2Ws during the 6th trumpet) fit after the sun is darkened, rather than this 42 month reign fitting during the trib of those days, meaning the GT that precedes the sun going dark and the stars falling from heaven---followed by the coming in verse 30 and the gathering in verse 31.

To me this alone proves that not all of Revelation could possibly be in chronological order since it doesn't make sense to apply the time of the 2Ws and the time of the 42 month reign of the beast after the GT rather than before and during the GT instead. Which at least means that not all of the trumpets follow the 6th seal, but that some of them precede the 6th seal instead.

Revelation is not in Chronological order you are correct.
However, the Trumpets do follow the seals, the 7th seal is the distributing of the 7 trumpets.
So what I am suggesting is you have the first 4 seals going off either in the first 3.5 years of the 70th week or before the 70th week or a mix of the two, Revelation isn't specific as to whether or not there was a covenant confirmed in any of the seals. But that part isn't as important.. The important thing is, the 5th seal doesn't start until after the midpoint. Because that is when Jesus in Matthew 24 says the Great Tribulation starts, and the 5th seal is where we see all the martyrs. I don't put the 4th seal after the midpoint because there needs to be relative peace and safety in the world, and people who take the mark of the beast will live a relatively normal life, they'll be buying and selling, planting and sowing, and marrying, etc. It's only the Christians and Jews who will be suffering in the Great Tribulation.
So, massive MAN CAUSED calamities happening in the first 4 seals (it's not God that causes them, but men/satan, but God has withdrew His protection from these things happening, that's why it's represented by seals. God has been witholding these things from happening, now He just LETS them happen), that allow the Antichrist to come into power. When he comes into power, his rule unites the world and there is a relative peace (compared to the war and starvation and pestilence and death of that went on in the first 4 seals). Then the midpoint happens, and he declares himself God, and the false prophet commands everyone to worship him and take the mark. This is the 5th seal, yes I'm aware that this is Revelation 13. I believe Revelation 13 is showing details of what's going on during the 5th seal, how those martyrs became martyrs. This is the Great Tribulation.
So while the Jews and Christians are suffering, those who aren't Christians and Jews will be living normal lives, saying peace and safety. Then the sun and moon will darken (sixth seal). At this point the Great Tribulation is over, because that's what fits Matthew 24:29. If the Great Tribulation continued after the 6th seal Jesus wouldn't have been telling the truth. What happens after the 6th seal? Panic, people wailing and mourning and telling the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne. This is a visible appearance of Jesus in the clouds, as Jesus says in Matthew 24:30. Another view of this moment is Revelation 14:14. What follows Jesus appearing in the clouds are the saints in heaven (Chapter 7, Chapter 15:2-4), and for those left on the earth... sudden destruction, just like in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, coming in the form of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, which I believe are happening within the same time period about, or the bowls might happen after the trumpets at the very very end just poured out in quick succession over the course of less than a month.
But because the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl seem related I like to think that while they're not the same events, they're happening in tandem.
Either way, they are distinctly the wrath of God, rather than Tribulation.
because the Tribulation ended when the Sun and Moon darkened at the 6th seal, according to Jesus.

I acknowledge it's sematics, but it's important semantics to me, because it reconciles bits of scripture that say we're not appointed to wrath, but we will have tribulation.

Like I said in an earlier post. Pre trib has to say that Daniel 12:1-2 isn't about us but only Israel, because it poses the problematic to their viewpoint chronology of the Tribulation happening before the Resurrection (which the Rapture is a Resurrection)

But Post Trib, as far as I know, has no answer for Isaiah 26:19-21, which says that the resurrection happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

Using Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-17, is what answers the timing for me. Because it shows the rapture as happening after the Tribulation, but before the wrath of God, which is declared at Revelation 6:17

 

[JulieB67]

The Seals are not actions. Seals are the signets that is "stamped" on someone if you will- to strengthen them. These are the things that those that are "sealed" are stamped with. These knowledges. The first being about the rider on the white horse with one crown.

Seal is the Greek word 4973 sphragis-, strengthened from 5420 (phrasso, a strength) a signet as in fencing or protecting from misappropiation), a stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy)

Sealed is the Greek word 4972 sphragizo from 4973 and it means -to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation.

Both of these words are connected to each other without a doubt.

Revelation 6 lays out the seals and then following this, the servants of God are sealed..the 144,000. Remember there were no chapters in the manuscripts so they follow one another at this point.

What are trumps usually used for? A call to action. But the seals are not actions they are stamps of knowledge that is placed in someone's forehead/mind to strengthen them or protect them.

ETA The seals sum up the tribulation but the tribulation still unfolds after this in Revelation.

 

[Jamdoc]

If you look at post #49 addressed to you, it doesn't look like I'm the one ignoring things, but that it is you who are instead. The time of the 2Ws and the time of the 42 month reign of the beast couldn't possibly be meaning after the 6th seal. That is clearly meaning before and during the trib of those days, the GT, being where the time of the 2Ws and 42 month reign of the beast fits. The GT, according to Matthew 24 is before the time of the 6th seal, where it appears that you at least agree with that.

Yeah, I'll agree on the 2 Witnesses. I think the first part of Chapter 11 is Parenthetical and really should be a part of chapter 10 because of that.
I think the 2 Witnesses preach in Jerusalem in the FIRST half of the 70th week, and are killed during the GT, in the final days of it.
I see it as the 2 Witnesses being raptured with the rest of the saints at the 6th seal.
The trumpets however, do not come before the 6th seal, because the trumpets are handed out after the 7th seal.

So ultimately I think we have Seals 1-4 (witnesses begin), Midpoint, Seal 5 (GT, martyrs and mark of the beast, and Witnesses killed), Seal 6 (end of GT, Rapture, Day of the Lord begins), Seal 7 gives out the trumpets, and then begins the wrath of God, the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, then Armageddon.

This makes it post trib, but pre wrath.

 

[DavidPT]

The Seals are not actions. Seals are the signets that is "stamped" on someone if you will- to strengthen them. These are the things that those that are "sealed" are stamped with. These knowledges. The first being about the rider on the white horse with one crown.

Seal is the Greek word 4973 sphragis-, strengthened from 5420 (phrasso, a strength) a signet as in fencing or protecting from misappropiation), a stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy)

Sealed is the Greek word 4972 sphragizo from 4973 and it means -to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation.

Both of these words are connected to each other without a doubt.



Revelation 6 lays out the seals and then following this, the servants of God are sealed..the 144,000. Remember there were no chapters in the manuscripts so they follow one another at this point.

What are trumps usually used for? A call to action. But the seals are not actions they are stamps of knowledge that is placed in someone's forehead/mind to strengthen them or protect them.

ETA The seals sum up the tribulation but the tribulation still unfolds after this in Revelation.

This is interesting. Can't say I ever looked at the seals like that. The way I tend to look at them is like this. The 6 seals are an outline of events where one thing leads to another, and that these events are in chronological order, and when we get to the 6th seal, we are at the end of these events, and not at the beginning of the trumpets instead.

 

[DavidPT]

The important thing is, the 5th seal doesn't start until after the midpoint. Because that is when Jesus in Matthew 24 says the Great Tribulation starts, and the 5th seal is where we see all the martyrs.

This I fully agree with, thus we are on the same page in regards to this.

Then the midpoint happens, and he declares himself God, and the false prophet commands everyone to worship him and take the mark. This is the 5th seal, yes I'm aware that this is Revelation 13. I believe Revelation 13 is showing details of what's going on during the 5th seal, how those martyrs became martyrs. This is the Great Tribulation.
So while the Jews and Christians are suffering, those who aren't Christians and Jews will be living normal lives, saying peace and safety. Then the sun and moon will darken (sixth seal). At this point the Great Tribulation is over, because that's what fits Matthew 24:29. If the Great Tribulation continued after the 6th seal Jesus wouldn't have been telling the truth. What happens after the 6th seal? Panic, people wailing and mourning and telling the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne

I see no reason to disagree with any of this.

What follows Jesus appearing in the clouds are the saints in heaven (Chapter 7, Chapter 15:2-4), and for those left on the earth... sudden destruction, just like in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, coming in the form of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, which I believe are happening within the same time period about, or the bowls might happen after the trumpets at the very very end just poured out in quick succession over the course of less than a month.
But because the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl seem related I like to think that while they're not the same events, they're happening in tandem.
Either way, they are distinctly the wrath of God, rather than Tribulation.
because the Tribulation ended when the Sun and Moon darkened at the 6th seal, according to Jesus.

This is where things seem to become contradictory. So let's see if it is actually contradictory or not by me asking you the following, if you don't mind.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

When do you have the beast reigning for 42 months? Before any trumpets? Or during any of the trumpets? If the latter, during which trumpets? Keeping in mind that you indicated that the trumpets follow the 6th seal and are after the GT.

If you have the beast reigning 42 months during the GT and that if you have that reign taking place during any of the trumpets, you appear to be contradicting yourself in that case. How can you not be? The only way you can't be contradicting yourself is if you don't have the beast reigning during any of the trumpets. But no matter how you look at it though, it is impossible that the beast is not reigning during any of the trumpets. Keeping in mind that when he is reigning it is for 42 months and is during the GT and is before the 6th seal.

He apparently has to be reigning during the 6th trumpet if he makes war with and kills the 2Ws during the 6th trumpet. If the 2Ws are still alive and prophesying during the 6th trumpet, that alone involves at least 3.5 years. That doesn't necessarily mean the 6th trumpet is that length of time, but it would have to mean they started prophesying earlier than the 6th trumpet, maybe even as early as the first trumpet, assuming the 6th trumpet is not meaning the entire length of them prophesying.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Seals are not actions. Seals are the signets that is "stamped" on someone if you will- to strengthen them. These are the things that those that are "sealed" are stamped with. These knowledges. The first being about the rider on the white horse with one crown.

Seal is the Greek word 4973 sphragis-, strengthened from 5420 (phrasso, a strength) a signet as in fencing or protecting from misappropiation), a stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy)

Sealed is the Greek word 4972 sphragizo from 4973 and it means -to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation.

Both of these words are connected to each other without a doubt.

Revelation 6 lays out the seals and then following this, the servants of God are sealed..the 144,000. Remember there were no chapters in the manuscripts so they follow one another at this point.

What are trumps usually used for? A call to action. But the seals are not actions they are stamps of knowledge that is placed in someone's forehead/mind to strengthen them or protect them.

ETA The seals sum up the tribulation but the tribulation still unfolds after this in Revelation.

The sun and moon darkening after the 6th seal is an action, it's not just knowledge. and that signals the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of the Day of the Lord

 

[Jamdoc]

This I fully agree with, thus we are on the same page in regards to this.




I see no reason to disagree with any of this.





This is where things seem to become contradictory. So let's see if it is actually contradictory or not by me asking you the following, if you don't mind.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

When do you have the beast reigning for 42 months? Before any trumpets? Or during any of the trumpets? If the latter, during which trumpets? Keeping in mind that you indicated that the trumpets follow the 6th seal and are after the GT.

If you have the beast reigning 42 months during the GT and that if you have that reign taking place during any of the trumpets, you appear to be contradicting yourself in that case. How can you not be? The only way you can't be contradicting yourself is if you don't have the beast reigning during any of the trumpets. But no matter how you look at it though, it is impossible that the beast is not reigning during any of the trumpets. Keeping in mind that when he is reigning it is for 42 months and is during the GT and is before the 6th seal.

He apparently has to be reigning during the 6th trumpet if he makes war with and kills the 2Ws during the 6th trumpet. If the 2Ws are still alive and prophesying during the 6th trumpet, that alone involves at least 3.5 years. That doesn't necessarily mean the 6th trumpet is that length of time, but it would have to mean they started prophesying earlier than the 6th trumpet, maybe even as early as the first trumpet, assuming the 6th trumpet is not meaning the entire length of them prophesying.

Matthew 24:21-22

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So yes. The antichrist is given 42 months from the midpoint until the 7th trumpet. That is when the kingdoms are handed over to Jesus, authority is taken from the Antichrist at the 7th trumpet.
After the rapture at the 6th seal, the Antichrist still has authority during the duration of the wrath of God, over the kingdoms and people who dwell on the earth, it's just at that time, there will no longer be the elect. They'll be caught up. Jesus shortens the days of the Great Tribulation because if He did not shorten the days and they went to the full 42 months... all the Elect would be killed. "No flesh be saved" Note it's flesh, not spirits.. it's the flesh that has to be saved by cutting short the days, because during the GT, the elect are being martyred, and starving. so Jesus has to cut the days short before they all starve (being unable to buy or sell, and being on the run and in hiding in an age of GPS and total surveillance)
The ideas that some people claim that the only "rapture" is death are not in agreement with Jesus on this one. Jesus wants to make sure that some of the elect survive physically to the rapture.
So the elect are taken out, the Beast's kingdom is subjected to wrath, but the Beast still has authority for however many more months until 7th trumpet. Is that understandable?

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation is not in Chronological order you are correct.
However, the Trumpets do follow the seals, the 7th seal is the distributing of the 7 trumpets.
So what I am suggesting is you have the first 4 seals going off either in the first 3.5 years of the 70th week or before the 70th week or a mix of the two, Revelation isn't specific as to whether or not there was a covenant confirmed in any of the seals. But that part isn't as important.. The important thing is, the 5th seal doesn't start until after the midpoint. Because that is when Jesus in Matthew 24 says the Great Tribulation starts, and the 5th seal is where we see all the martyrs. I don't put the 4th seal after the midpoint because there needs to be relative peace and safety in the world, and people who take the mark of the beast will live a relatively normal life, they'll be buying and selling, planting and sowing, and marrying, etc. It's only the Christians and Jews who will be suffering in the Great Tribulation.
So, massive MAN CAUSED calamities happening in the first 4 seals (it's not God that causes them, but men/satan, but God has withdrew His protection from these things happening, that's why it's represented by seals. God has been witholding these things from happening, now He just LETS them happen), that allow the Antichrist to come into power. When he comes into power, his rule unites the world and there is a relative peace (compared to the war and starvation and pestilence and death of that went on in the first 4 seals). Then the midpoint happens, and he declares himself God, and the false prophet commands everyone to worship him and take the mark. This is the 5th seal, yes I'm aware that this is Revelation 13. I believe Revelation 13 is showing details of what's going on during the 5th seal, how those martyrs became martyrs. This is the Great Tribulation.
So while the Jews and Christians are suffering, those who aren't Christians and Jews will be living normal lives, saying peace and safety. Then the sun and moon will darken (sixth seal). At this point the Great Tribulation is over, because that's what fits Matthew 24:29. If the Great Tribulation continued after the 6th seal Jesus wouldn't have been telling the truth. What happens after the 6th seal? Panic, people wailing and mourning and telling the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne. This is a visible appearance of Jesus in the clouds, as Jesus says in Matthew 24:30. Another view of this moment is Revelation 14:14. What follows Jesus appearing in the clouds are the saints in heaven (Chapter 7, Chapter 15:2-4), and for those left on the earth... sudden destruction, just like in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, coming in the form of the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls, which I believe are happening within the same time period about, or the bowls might happen after the trumpets at the very very end just poured out in quick succession over the course of less than a month.
But because the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl seem related I like to think that while they're not the same events, they're happening in tandem.
Either way, they are distinctly the wrath of God, rather than Tribulation.
because the Tribulation ended when the Sun and Moon darkened at the 6th seal, according to Jesus.

I acknowledge it's sematics, but it's important semantics to me, because it reconciles bits of scripture that say we're not appointed to wrath, but we will have tribulation.

Like I said in an earlier post. Pre trib has to say that Daniel 12:1-2 isn't about us but only Israel, because it poses the problematic to their viewpoint chronology of the Tribulation happening before the Resurrection (which the Rapture is a Resurrection)

But Post Trib, as far as I know, has no answer for Isaiah 26:19-21, which says that the resurrection happens BEFORE the wrath of God.

Using Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-17, is what answers the timing for me. Because it shows the rapture as happening after the Tribulation, but before the wrath of God, which is declared at Revelation 6:17

This is not rightly dividing the Word of God. This is changing God's Word to make it fit human reasoning.

The Second Coming is the final harvest. The final harvest does not happen prior to the Second Coming. Where in the OD does it claim the church is the one coming in the clouds to gather the final harvest? It is the Lamb coming to gather the final harvest. The church already gathered for the last 1991 years.

The tribulation of those days includes the church persecution and the first 4 Seals. Then comes the final harvest, when Christ is on earth. This harvest is painful because all humanity dies. It is not hundreds of years and generations coming and going. It is months of solid death and dying. Christ and the angels are removing souls from Adam's sinful flesh and blood. Souls are going to their eternal destinations. Not even time to think about it, hope about it, nor pray about it. When Christ and the angels say it is time, it is time. No decisions can be made. They had already been made before the Second Coming.

The only decisions will be during Satan's 42 months. Many can still opt out of Death, by having their heads removed. The removal assures that one cannot recieve the mark and have their name removed from the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Jamdoc]

This is not rightly dividing the Word of God. This is changing God's Word to make it fit human reasoning.

The Second Coming is the final harvest. The final harvest does not happen prior to the Second Coming. Where in the OD does it claim the church is the one coming in the clouds to gather the final harvest? It is the Lamb coming to gather the final harvest. The church already gathered for the last 1991 years.

The tribulation of those days includes the church persecution and the first 4 Seals. Then comes the final harvest, when Christ is on earth. This harvest is painful because all humanity dies. It is not hundreds of years and generations coming and going. It is months of solid death and dying. Christ and the angels are removing souls from Adam's sinful flesh and blood. Souls are going to their eternal destinations. Not even time to think about it, hope about it, nor pray about it. When Christ and the angels say it is time, it is time. No decisions can be made. They had already been made before the Second Coming.

The only decisions will be during Satan's 42 months. Many can still opt out of Death, by having their heads removed. The removal assures that one cannot recieve the mark and have their name removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Jesus said flesh would be spared (Matthew 24:22), so no your idea that the "rapture" is just people dying and spiritually going to heaven is wrong.
It's also refuted by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 which points out that there are those who are alive and remain.

 

[Timtofly]

The Seals are not actions. Seals are the signets that is "stamped" on someone if you will- to strengthen them. These are the things that those that are "sealed" are stamped with. These knowledges. The first being about the rider on the white horse with one crown.

Seal is the Greek word 4973 sphragis-, strengthened from 5420 (phrasso, a strength) a signet as in fencing or protecting from misappropiation), a stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy)

Sealed is the Greek word 4972 sphragizo from 4973 and it means -to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation.

Both of these words are connected to each other without a doubt.

Revelation 6 lays out the seals and then following this, the servants of God are sealed..the 144,000. Remember there were no chapters in the manuscripts so they follow one another at this point.

What are trumps usually used for? A call to action. But the seals are not actions they are stamps of knowledge that is placed in someone's forehead/mind to strengthen them or protect them.

ETA The seals sum up the tribulation but the tribulation still unfolds after this in Revelation.

This would be the case if the book was being sealed up. The issue is that God is opening the book, thus unsealing. Each time a strong part of the Covenant is unsealed, an event does happen on earth. The last 3 Seals is the preparation of physically sealing those found in the book, because the book no longer seals those under the Atonement Covenant. They will now be restored to the condition prior to needing to be sealed in the Lamb's book of life.

In Daniel 9:27 there is not the creation of a Covenant. The 7th Trumpet is confirming that all have been restored by the Atonement Covenant. Remember that the Gentiles are a grafted in branch. All humans are covered by the Atonement. God clearly favors some offspring of Adam over others. That point of favoring ended when the favored branch was broken off. After the Cross was when all humanity was viewed equally.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. The church is removed. Israel is once more restored as the favored branch. John does not portray the Second Coming as being a final harvest, Jesus covered that Himself. John does not talk about the restoration of Israel, the OT prophets covered that aspect. What John gives is the severity of the judgment of God. John gives a precise chronology that does not need to be changed or jumbled up into a single event. Revelation is an unfolding step by step process, that does take time. This process cannot be sped up, but many humans will have to experience it. It is not a 24 hour event seen at different angles.