Futurist Only Rapture timing thread - pretrib, pre-wrath or post-trib?

[Jeffwhosoever]

I marked this as Futurist only so we don't get into an argument on whether tribulation was completed in AD 70 or is yet to come.
For those who hold that most of Revelation (4 to end) is yet to come, what is the Sciptural evidence you see for a pre-trib rapture of the church, or a mid trib/pre-wrath rapture, or post-trib rapture?

 

[BobRyan]

I marked this as Futurist only so we don't get into an argument on whether tribulation was completed in AD 70 or is yet to come.
For those who hold that most of Revelation (4 to end) is yet to come, what is the Sciptural evidence you see for a pre-trib rapture of the church, or a mid trib/pre-wrath rapture, or post-trib rapture?

Matt 24 lays it all out

"Immediately after the tribulation"

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

that fits 1 Thess 4:13-18 perfectly

The rapture and the Rev 19 second coming are at the same time - the saints are taken to heaven - the wicked are destroyed.

 

[dóxatotheó]

Matt 24 lays it all out

"Immediately after the tribulation"

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

that fits 1 Thess 4:13-18 perfectly

The rapture and the Rev 19 second coming are at the same time - the saints are taken to heaven - the wicked are destroyed.

Bob your post-trib thats amazing man

 

[d taylor]

The second coming is in two parts. the first part The Messiah comes out of Heaven to the clouds where He will meet the raptured church age believers in the clouds where they will reside during the tribulation.

The Messiah's second coming is stated as coming like a thief in the night. But also stated as being accompanied with great signs. So they can not be both come like a thief in the night if the coming is marked with great signs.

Rapture first part of The Messiah's coming before tribulation, 7 year tribulation the then physical return of The Messiah at the end of the tribulation.

​

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Please post your position then support your case since its not always obvious.

 

[Jeshu]

The teaching of the rapture ought to be understood spiritually much more so than physically.

i wrote a poem about my rapture

Raptured

I knew I been no good all my life
I was stuck with cold loveless strife
much in me had little faith in God's grace
as my loveless ways had kept me from His Face.

In my bad life I was untrue and insincere
weak and hopelessly overcome by my fear
I didn't believe God would love me as well
always believing what the inner liars tell.

Oh these massive hailstones pounding me
considering how bad I had turned out to be
fire and brimstone following my inner despair
for of loving truth I hadn't taken any care.

Where is your God my tormentors jeered
the bottomless pit opening as they sneered
my good life stolen from me as I fell down
my godlessness now with misery me to drown!

Unbearable was the agony as I met sinners fate
flames of torment untrue and loveless sin berate
self hate upping the temperature so very high
gnashing of teeth and wailing my constant cry

And so I languish in torment pondering my fate
still wondering how come I had been to late
doubting unbelief and unforgiven sin my misery
As I watched myself turn completely ungodly.

My Hell was an Endless Torturous Night.
that comes to all with bad life inside
where one's untrue and loveless deeds
now constant fire and brimstone reaps.

After many years The Truth came finally down to me
for only God's Grace could reach into my misery
and so my bad life the goats in charge could keep
As Jesus came and collected me in all my sheep.

Awakened to the truth I arose from the dead
God's breath of loving truth entering me instead
a fast army arose as Ezekiel prophesied to my soul
His blinding light directing me to my new goal.

And so I flew up to meet Him in the wink of an eye
Heart piercing wails from the rule of the lie
raging Hell poured down on where I had been
Father' holy wrath burning evil so very mean.

Jesus beaming smile betrayed no harm
will for wrong simply died in His loving charm
and so He also baptised me with holy fire
His loving truth tending my every hearts desire.

144,000 holy ones Jesus brought from above
rebuilding my heart in His Kingdom of love
teaching me The Way to do things right
forever denying evil wrong ruling me inside.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Matt 24 lays it all out

"Immediately after the tribulation"

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

that fits 1 Thess 4:13-18 perfectly

The rapture and the Rev 19 second coming are at the same time - the saints are taken to heaven - the wicked are destroyed.

Several sources I have suggest that the Olivet discourse have nothing to do with the rapture just the second coming of the Lord at the end of the 7 years of tribulation.

Interpretive Flaws in the Olivet Discourse | The Master's Seminary

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

The teaching of the rapture ought to be understood spiritually much more so than physically.

i wrote a poem about my rapture

Raptured

I knew I been no good all my life
I was stuck with cold loveless strife
much in me had little faith in God's grace
as my loveless ways had kept me from His Face.

In my bad life I was untrue and insincere
weak and hopelessly overcome by my fear
I didn't believe God would love me as well
always believing what the inner liars tell.

Oh these massive hailstones pounding me
considering how bad I had turned out to be
fire and brimstone following my inner despair
for of loving truth I hadn't taken any care.

Where is your God my tormentors jeered
the bottomless pit opening as they sneered
my good life stolen from me as I fell down
my godlessness now with misery me to drown!

Unbearable was the agony as I met sinners fate
flames of torment untrue and loveless sin berate
self hate upping the temperature so very high
gnashing of teeth and wailing my constant cry

And so I languish in torment pondering my fate
still wondering how come I had been to late
doubting unbelief and unforgiven sin my misery
As I watched myself turn completely ungodly.

My Hell was an Endless Torturous Night.
that comes to all with bad life inside
where one's untrue and loveless deeds
now constant fire and brimstone reaps.

After many years The Truth came finally down to me
for only God's Grace could reach into my misery
and so my bad life the goats in charge could keep
As Jesus came and collected me in all my sheep.

Awakened to the truth I arose from the dead
God's breath of loving truth entering me instead
a fast army arose as Ezekiel prophesied to my soul
His blinding light directing me to my new goal.

And so I flew up to meet Him in the wink of an eye
Heart piercing wails from the rule of the lie
raging Hell poured down on where I had been
Father' holy wrath burning evil so very mean.

Jesus beaming smile betrayed no harm
will for wrong simply died in His loving charm
and so He also baptised me with holy fire
His loving truth tending my every hearts desire.

144,000 holy ones Jesus brought from above
rebuilding my heart in His Kingdom of love
teaching me The Way to do things right
forever denying evil wrong ruling me inside.

Your own poem is not biblical support and the rapture isn't spiritual its physical.

 

[BobRyan]

Several sources I have suggest that the Olivet discourse have nothing to do with the rapture just the second coming of the Lord at the end of the 7 years of tribulation.

Interpretive Flaws in the Olivet Discourse | The Master's Seminary

No doubt there are preferences in that direction so that is why I highlighted certain phrases in Matt 24 that make it crystal clear.

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

that fits 1 Thess 4:13-18 perfectly

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Matt 24 - "will appear in the sky" --> 1 Thess 4 "meet the Lord in the air"
Matt 24 - coming in the clouds of the sky --> 1 Tthess 4 "will descend from heaven"
Matt 24 - "The trumpet of God" --> 1 Thess 4 "a great trumpet blast"
Matt 24 - "gather the elect... from one end of the sky to the other" -- 1 Thess 4 "meet the Lord in the air"
Matt 24 - "Son of man coming" ---> 1 Thess 4 "coming of the Lord"


Matt 24 does not explain how it is that the "elect are in the sky" when the angels come to gather them -- 1 Thess 4 explains how that happens - and it is at the 2nd coming described in Rev 19.

 

[d taylor]

Several sources I have suggest that the Olivet discourse have nothing to do with the rapture just the second coming of the Lord at the end of the 7 years of tribulation.

Interpretive Flaws in the Olivet Discourse | The Master's Seminary

-​

The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[BobRyan]

-​

The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

obviously the problem with a pre-trib rapture in Matt 24 is the part that starts with " immediately after the tribulation "

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So I scanned your link dealing with Matt 24 for vs 29 "immediately after the tribulation " and guess what?

 

[DavidPT]

Matt 24 lays it all out

"Immediately after the tribulation"

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

that fits 1 Thess 4:13-18 perfectly

The rapture and the Rev 19 second coming are at the same time - the saints are taken to heaven - the wicked are destroyed.

Anyone reading that text in Matthew 24:29-31 should notice at least 3 things. The coming in verse 30 is not meaning before the trib or even during the trib, it is meaning after the trib. After the trib means post trib, obviously. The way some try and get around this, there is more than one coming. The coming meant in 1 Thessalonians 4 is not the same coming meant in Matthew 24:30, so on and so on.

 

[d taylor]

obviously the problem with a pre-trib rapture in Matt 24 is the part that starts with " immediately after the tribulation "

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

So I scanned your link dealing with Matt 24 for vs 29 "immediately after the tribulation " and guess what?

That is no problem, that is when The Messiah physically returns to earth to fight for Israel. The rapture has happen at least 7 before that.

 

[DavidPT]

That is no problem, that is when The Messiah physically returns to earth to fight for Israel. The rapture has happen at least 7 before that.

If the coming in Matthew 24:30 is not meaning the rapture, which coming in Matthew 24 is meaning the rapture?

 

[d taylor]

If the coming in Matthew 24:30 is not meaning the rapture, which coming in Matthew 24 is meaning the rapture?

Matthew 24:30 is the return of The Messiah at the end of the tribulation. The Messiah return is fully known by signs.

The rapture has no signs
Matthew 24:36-44 is speaking about the rapture no one knows

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24:30 is the return of The Messiah at the end of the tribulation. The Messiah return is fully known by signs.

The rapture has no signs
Matthew 24:36-44 is speaking about the rapture no one knows

Let's look at those verses then.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Why don't you think verse 39 is meaning during the 2nd coming? Doesn't Revelation 19 involve the 2nd coming, and doesn't it show ones being taken away via them being slain? Obviously, there is not going to be another flood in the end of this age, so Jesus is only comparing to the flood, and not that there would be one. Therefore, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away---is a good comparison with them being slain in Revelation 19.

 

[d taylor]

Let's look at those verses then.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Why don't you think verse 39 is meaning during the 2nd coming? Doesn't Revelation 19 involve the 2nd coming, and doesn't it show ones being taken away via them being slain? Obviously, there is not going to be another flood in the end of this age, so Jesus is only comparing to the flood, and not that there would be one. Therefore, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away---is a good comparison with them being slain in Revelation 19.

So in Revelation 19 after 7 years of an earth and time that this is said of it And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

That you believe that no one will know especially Israel and gentile believers who know the scriptures and are looking for the return of The Messiah, .

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The flood was a sudden event for everyone except Noah, God had prepared him.

 

[d taylor]

Let's look at those verses then.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Why don't you think verse 39 is meaning during the 2nd coming? Doesn't Revelation 19 involve the 2nd coming, and doesn't it show ones being taken away via them being slain? Obviously, there is not going to be another flood in the end of this age, so Jesus is only comparing to the flood, and not that there would be one. Therefore, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away---is a good comparison with them being slain in Revelation 19.

Are people who are engaged in a war going to as verse 38 states. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Verse 38 is describing a regular type of life atmosphere, not one of war.

 

[Douggg]

If the coming in Matthew 24:30 is not meaning the rapture, which coming in Matthew 24 is meaning the rapture?

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Corresponds with Jesus's instruction in Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm