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Rapture False doctrine

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by JM, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. revrobor

    revrobor Veteran

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    The entire Gospel (Good News) is contained in John 3:16. All else is doctrine (true or not true).
     
  2. phoenixdem

    phoenixdem Newbie

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  3. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Don't do it!

    You'll be attacked left and right!

    On one page, this same person posted:

    You'll be branded a heretic and accused of spreading a "false doctrine"!

    And then your challenged to prove it from scripture.

    Don't do it.

    Heed my warning!

    I am encouraging you to unsubscribe and let sleeping dogs lie.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  4. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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    *woof* :D;)
     
  5. phoenixdem

    phoenixdem Newbie

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    Unfortunately, the state of the Church these days is becoming New Age and new ideas. I do believe in the Rapture as do many top-rank Christian theologians have and still do. There are many people who don't believe in the Rapture. There are also those who feel that we have to do away with the first eleven chapters of Genesis to make religion more palatable to the younger folks. I believe that both are wrong. However, I won't get into a long drawn out discussion (read fight) with those who don't agree with me. If these people want a fight, they can put on the gloves and find someone else. They don't have the last word and best understanding of Scriptures although they have enough pride to believe they know best. They can rant and rave all day long if they wish. I don't have the inclination to humor them.
     
  6. revrobor

    revrobor Veteran

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    In other words "I'm right. Don't confuse me with facts." The "Rapture" is not going to be as anyone has described it. Read Rev 20 & 21.
     
  7. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    See, already started.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  8. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    Dean,

    This is a very provocative approach by you. To demonstrate that the Rapture is contained in the Gospel is an dimension of biblical theology or not.

    When I made the above statement (you did not mention my name but you were referring to my quote) about Norm Geisler's understanding of a chronological logical fallacy re the late understanding of the pretrib Rapture, you commended me for what I wrote. So what do you do here? You tell a poster to unsubscribe. I find this to be a hypocritical approach.

    If you or anyone else cannot defend the Rapture as included in the Gospel, it should not be raised. Why would you be concerned that others might bring forth Scripture to contradict 'the Gospel includes the Rapture' teaching? If it is biblical, it needs support. If it is unbiblical, it needs exposing.

    In Christ, Oz
     
  9. phoenixdem

    phoenixdem Newbie

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    You know the saying about sticks and stones, right? Who cares what they say? Certainly, not me.
     
  10. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    You also could the same thing be said.

    You post that you haven't any evidence against it per se, and quote Geisler, opening the door, but then you turn around and challenge another to prove it from scripture, thus slaming the door in their face.

    Talk about a "hypocritical approach" from me.

    Hello pot, this is kettle.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  11. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    I have never ever written that I have no evidence against the pre-trib rapture on CF. I said that I had not read all of Norm Geisler's material in support of it.

    There is nothing hypocritical about this. It is only your allegation against me - which is false.

    Since you have become nasty in your attitude towards me, I choose not to respond to you any further on this topic.

    Oz
     
  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Who was it that said:

    Was it me?

    You post statements like this, then turn right around and challenge somebody to prove it.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    I would like to see you quote them and if you can't its just an assertion. Even Ryrie isn't able to quote anyone before Darby teaching Dispensational PreTrib Rapturism.



    ...and so you plan on defending what you believe to be a logical fallacy by creating a logical fallacy: appealing to authority? The truth of the matter, Darby invented the doctrine, it never existed before him because it cannot be supported by scripture.



    Already posted about psudeo-Ephraem who did not teach the PreTrib rapture. Please re-visit the post.



    You are misusing Hodge. He is not defending Dispensationalism.

    DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY | Against Dispensationalism

    Folks, its really simple, the church never believed in the Dispensational PreTrib rapture. You can't claim ignorance on this subject.
     
  14. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    JM,

    John Nelson Darby lived from 1800-1882 according to Wikipedia.

    I thought you were as capable as I in using Google to locate the pre-tribulation teaching that is alleged to be prior to J N Darby. See:

    1. Margaret Macdonald (1830 Pre-trib vision);
    2. Edward Irving (1792-1834);
    3. Manuel Lacunza (AD 1731-1801). This Wikipedia article on Lacunza gives an idea of his view of futurism. Here is Dave MacPherson on Lacunza and pre-trib rapture.
    David MacPherson has attempted to expose some of the pre-tribulation teaching in The Incredible Cover-Up (1975. Medford, Oregon: Omega Publications)and The Great Rapture Hoax (1983. Fletcher N. C.: New Puritan Library). There are critiques of David MacPherson's research, e.g. HERE.

    In MacPherson's 1983 publication there is a quote from a letter written in 1834 by Francis Sitwell who became one of the 12 apostles of the Catholic Apostolic Church (associated with Edward Irving) in 1835. The letter reads:
    You might be interested in reading Tim Warner, 'The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine' that gives some of the information to which I referred. However, I was not familiar with this article until just now when I searched for info on the www on Macdonald, Irving and Lacunza.

    You don't seem to have liked the fact that I used Norman Geisler's research to identify a chronological logical fallacy by claiming that the pre-trib rapture, being late in exposition, does not necessarily make it invalid. I have not used an appeal to authority as a logical fallacy. I have simply used another's research to show the nature of a chronological fallacy when applied to the pre-trib rapture. Surely you also use another's research to save you having to do it yourself. That is what I did and did not appeal illogically to an authority.

    You stated:
    I have provided some additional information that may challenge your assertion that Darby invented the doctrine. You may consider that it cannot be supported by Scripture. Why don't you read Norman Geisler's defense of the pre-trib rapture from Scripture in Systematic Theology, vol 4. 2005. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse, pp 612-635?

    I hope I've provided enough grist for the mill to at least cause some doubt that J N Darby was the first to promote the pre-trib rapture.

    In Christ, Oz






     
  15. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    A little FYI: both you guys are on my ignore list, so expect no further replies from me.

    Unsubscribing.

    God Bless

    TIll all are one.
     
  16. OzSpen

    OzSpen Regular Member

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    So you're not enjoying the heat.:wave:
     
  17. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    :thumbsup: ^_^

    Oz, you are not on my ignore list.
     
  18. FredVB

    FredVB Regular Member

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    I have the understanding that we will have no knowledge of when it is about to happen when the Lord will have all of us who are saved through him snatched from this world. There are several scriptural passages for this. But with a time of prophesied great tribulations that are framed with many descriptions in reference to time of duration, should they start first the time any of us who are there might be snatched away is more limited in when it could happen, not leaving it to be unexpected, as with a thief in the night.
     
  19. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    And I get called out for using sarcasm! Don't worry Oz I'm not offended.


    I have read the above before and I believe the most accurate link you have posted so far. He basically agrees with the reading I've done in the past. Edwards and de Lacunza did not teach a PreTrib Rapture and but he noted how Irving claimed to have taught Dispensationalism. He does not write that Irving taught the PreTrib rapture but elements of Dispensationalism.

    The pretribulation rapture view did not grow out of a diligent study of the Scriptures, or revival of early Christian doctrines. Rather, it was birthed from the womb of charismatic excesses, and developed by a preacher known for his heretical views of the person of Christ.
    This article argues that Darby used Irving’s Dispensational ideas and the charismatic revelations of a heretic to formulate the PreTrib Rapture which was disseminated throughout the conservative Fundamentalist Christian world. I can live with that analysis. My emphasis would still be on Darby considering his consolidation of both Irving’s and MacDonald’s teaching since neither one put forth a system of theology like Darby. It maybe a stretch to say the origin was a cover up, Dispensationalists and others simply point to the one who systemized the whole mess…making JND the found of PreTrib Dispensational rapturism.

    Oz, we are dealing with facts and information, it has nothing to do with like or dislike.

    As you wrote in the quote above, ‘does not necessarily make it invalid.’ The idea of escaping trials and persecution is a recent.

    I think you have helped me and others out with that article by Warner. It doesn't really cause me to doubt JND as the man behind the system though, if you re-read the article and draw your own conclusion, you'll see Darby was the man.

    jm
     
  20. Adoniram

    Adoniram Senior Member

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    Admittedly, I've not read every post in this thread, but, I wonder what those of you who do not subscribe to the pre-trib rapture concept think about Jesus' teaching on the subject. It's found in Luke 21. That chapter is Luke's version of Matthew's chapter 24, commonly referred to as the Olivet Discourse. Jesus teaches about the end times...the condition of world just before his return, conditions during the great tribulation, and signs that his return is near. His description is not pretty. I'm sure you are well familiar with those passages.

    In verse 36 of Luke 21, Jesus gives an admonishment, actually an encouragement:

    "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

    I've read different renderings of the Greek text and the KJV (the above is actually NKJV) is true to the readings. One of them says the Greek word that the KJV translates as "escape" actually means "out-fleeing." That's a pretty clear picture of the rapture. And Jesus references this "out-fleeing" as happening before these things will come to pass, i.e., before the tribulation.

    Why do you suppose Jesus would say "pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass" if he was not indicating what has come to be known as a pre-trib rapture?
     
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