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Rapture False doctrine

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by JM, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Just so you will know, the first, or what can be considered the first resurrection, has already occured.

    "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." -Mt. 27:50-53 (KJV)

    What happened to these "saints"?

    Did they awaken, rise up from the graves, walk around for 40 days and then go back to the grave?

    John Gill comments:

    Source

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  2. revrobor

    revrobor Veteran

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    You apparently have not read Rev. 20 & 21. Many interpretations of Scripture are nothing bu man's opinion.
     
  3. BeeWrangler

    BeeWrangler wishing I was fishing

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    Exactly :amen:
     
  4. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    :thumbsup: The rapture position being a very late opinion in church history. If it wasn't for John Nelson Darby and his disciples we wouldn't be talking about it today.
     
  5. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    How does one explain Enoch, Elijah, and the resurrected saints of Mt. 27:52?

    Were they "raptured" "being caught up" or just whatever?

    While I grant you that a "rapture" was popular until J.N. Darby began to teach it, that does not invalidate it either.

    Sola scriptura was a "new" thing some 600 years ago too.

    Is that fake, or heresy too?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  6. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Dean, your questions have nothing to do with the PreTrib rapture and its inventor. You are creating rabbit trails to protect your pet doctrine. Dispensationalism is a shoe horn theology where you take a passage and shoe horn it into a place, that contextually, it just doesn't fit. You shoe horn the rapture into Revelation.

    The Dispensational PreTrib Rapturism didn't exist before 1800.
     
  7. Michael Snow

    Michael Snow Guest

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    But that is not the topic being discussed here, but, rather, the 'secret rapture' doctrine.

    This is a common mistake made in discussons on this topic. All proponents of the secret rapture are pre-millennial. But many, who believe in the pre-millenial return of Christ, reject the secret rapture and the subsequent 3rd Coming.

    Though you find Chiliasm in the early writings, you do NOT find the secret rapture.

    And this rapture doctrine results not from exegesis of Scripture but from eisegesis.
     
  8. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Again sir, what of Enoch and Elijah?

    Only Elisha knew of this.

    And nobody but Moses was it revealed to about Enoch.

    Were these not "secret"?

    And one of the gretest secrets of all: what happened to the resurrected saints in Mt. 27:52.

    Did God raise them nly to put them back in the grave?

    No sir. Moses was dead and buried thousands of years before Christ, yet he was seen alive and well at the mount of transfiguration.

    So here again, just because something wasn't taught before a certain time, does not mean that its untrue or heresy.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    It sure did.

    Thousands and thousands of years before the tribulation, both Enoch and Elijah have been, what was it Paul called it, "being caught up".

    As I said before, one of the tenants of Protestantism is sola scriptura is sola scriptura, Because it wasn't taught prior to 1500 does that make it heresy too?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  10. revrobor

    revrobor Veteran

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    A lot of people will be surprised when Jesus returns and removes all the non-believers from this Earth along with Satan and his demons and sets up His Millennial Kingdom. Read Rev. 20 & 21.
     
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    JM, here are five major tenants of Baptists, Presbyterians, and of the Reformed faith:

    1. Justification is by means of faith alone.
    2. Salvation is won on the basis of grace alone.
    3. Scripture alone is authoritative and infallible for the church's use in binding the consciences of men.
    4. Christ alone is the mediator between God and men.
    5. True doctrine gives glory to God alone.

    Because they weren't taught until 1500, are these heresies like the "rapture" theory?

    Evidently so.

    Leastwise that is what I'm taking away from this conversation.

    The "rapture" theory wasn't taught in the early church or prior to 1800, as taught by J.N. Darby, therefore it is false.

    The five solas weren't taught by the early church or prior to 1500, as taught by Martin Luther, therefore they are false as well.

    If its false for one, its false for the other as well.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  12. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Dean, only those who are unfamiliar with the writings of the early church would make such a claim. I thought you were schooled in Reformed theology? You are so intent on protecting the Rapture doctrine that you are willing to claim none, not one of those 5 tenets listed can be found in history before the Reformation? :doh:

    What is evidently so? The fact that you can't find the Rapture being taught before Darby is evidently so? Yes. Now you want to prove the validity of the Rapture doctrine by throwing away all evidence for the 5 you listed above?

    Now you got it.

    Ahhh, yeah they were. They were not formulated in a nice scholastic or theological manner until the 1500's but they were still taught by the early church fathers just not as clearly. Ever read Gill's Cause of God and Truth? I can tell you haven't read the ECF's.

    jm
     
  13. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Whatever dude,

    FYI: I have John Gill's complete works including the Cause of God and Truth.

    And I have it in hardback.

    The Cause of God and Truth, John GIll, Part 1:

    PART 1. - EXAMINATION OF

    PART 2.
    CHAPTER 1. OF REPROBATION - A VINDICATION OF.
    CHAPTER 2. OF ELECTION.
    CHAPTER 3. OF REDEMPTION.
    CHAPTER 4. OF EFFICACIOUS GRACE
    CHAPTER 5. OF THE CORRUPTION OF HUMAN NATURE, AND THE IMPOTENCE OF THE WILL TO MAN TO THAT WHICH IS SPIRITUALLY GOOD.
    CHAPTER 6. OF PERSEVERANCE.

    PART 3.

    SECTION 1.- Of Reprobation
    SECTION 2.- Of Election
    SECTION 3.- Of Redemption
    SECTION 4.- Of Efficacious Grace
    SECTION 5. - Of the Freedom of the Will of Man
    SECTION 6. - Of the Perseverance of the Saints
    SECTION 7. - Of the Prescience and Providence of God
    SECTION 8. - The state and case of the Heathens
    PART 4. Introduction





    CHAPTER 1. OF PREDESTINATION

    CHAPTER 2. OF REDEMPTION.

    CHAPTER 3. OF ORIGINAL SIN, THE IMPOTENCE OF MAN'S FREE WILL, ETC.

    CHAPTER 4. OF EFFICACIOUS GRACE

    CHAPTER 5. OF PERSEVERANCE.

    Found here.

    Now, if you would be so kind as to direct me to the sections where the five solas are discussed.

    He does an excellent job of showing how the ECF's supported the T.U.L.I.P. outline, but not the 5 Solas.

    Direct me to them in The Cause of God and Truth please.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Prior to the Reformation, prior to Martin Luther's 95 Thesis, there was no teaching by the ECF's on the Five Solas.

    Source

    Sorry dude.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  15. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Justification expounded (source) :

    Clement of Rome: “Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. ANF: Vol. I, The Apostolic Fathers, First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 32.

    Mathetes to Diognetus: “He Himself took on Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange (substitution)! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors! Having therefore convinced us in the former time that our nature was unable to attain to life, and having now revealed the Savior who is able to save even those things which it was [formerly] impossible to save, by both these facts He desired to lead us to trust in His kindness, to esteem Him our Nourisher, Father, Teacher, Counselor, Healer, our Wisdom, Light, Honor, Glory, Power, and Life, so that we should not be anxious concerning clothing and food.” Ante-Nicene Fathers: Volume I, Mathetes to Diognetus, Chapter 9.

    Marius Victorinus (born c. 280, converted around 356): Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ. For the patriarchs prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham that he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous. Epistle to the Galatians, 1.3.7. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 39.

    Chrysostom (349-407): The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone: before circumcision, the text says, “Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.” Fathers of the Church, Vol. 82, Homilies on Genesis 18-45, 27.7 (Washington, D.C.: The Catholic University of America Press, 1990), p. 167.

    Chrysostom (349-407): For if even before this, the circumcision was made uncircumcision, much rather was it now, since it is cast out from both periods. But after saying that “it was excluded,” he shows also, how. How then does he say it was excluded? “By what law? of works? Nay, but by the law of faith.” See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the “law of faith?” It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only. NPNF1: Vol. XI, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27.

    Chrysostom (349-407): “For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.” NPNF1: Vol. XI, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1, 2.

    Chrysostom (349-407): “And this he removes, with great skill and prudence, turning their argument against themselves, and showing that those who relinquish the Law are not only not cursed, but blessed; and they who keep it, not only not blessed but cursed. They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed. And how does he prove all this? for it is no common thing which we have promised; wherefore it is necessary to give close attention to what follows.” NPNF1: Vol. XIII, Commentary on Galatians, 3:8.

    Chrysostom (349-407): “For they said that the one who does not keep the law is cursed, while he shows that the one who strives to keep it is cursed and the one who does not strive to keep it is blessed. They said that he who kept not the Law was cursed, but he proves that he who kept it was cursed, and he who kept it not, blessed. Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that he who adhered to Faith alone, is blessed.” Homily on Galatians 3.9-10. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 40. 3:8.

    Chrysostom (349-407): God’s mission was not to save people in order that they may remain barren or inert. For Scripture says that faith has saved us. Put better: Since God willed it, faith has saved us. Now in what case, tell me, does faith save without itself doing anything at all? Faith’s workings themselves are a gift of God, lest anyone should boast. What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works, precisely in order that the grace and benevolence of God may become apparent. Homily on Ephesians 4.2.9. Mark J. Edwards, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 134.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384) commenting upon 1 Cor. 1:4b: “God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VII: 1-2 Corinthians (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1999), p. 6.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384), on Rom. 1:11: “For the mercy of God had been given for this reason, that they should cease from the works of the law, as I have often said, because God, taking pity on our weaknesses, decreed that the human race would be saved by faith alone, along with the natural law.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 23.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384), on Rom. 2:12: “For if the law is given not for the righteous but for the unrighteous, whoever does not sin is a friend of the law. For him faith alone is the way by which he is made perfect. For others mere avoidance of evil will not gain them any advantage with God unless they also believe in God, so that they may be righteous on both counts. For the one righteousness is temporal; the other is eternal.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 65.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384), on Rom. 3:24: “They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 101.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384), on Rom. 3:27: “Paul tells those who live under the law that they have no reason to boast basing themselves on the law and claiming to be of the race of Abraham, seeing that no one is justified before God except by faith.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 103.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384), on Rom. 4:5: “How then can the Jews think that they have been justified by the works of the law in the same way as Abraham, when they see that Abraham was not justified by the works of the law but by faith alone? Therefore there is no need of the law when the ungodly is justified before God by faith alone.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 112.

    Ambrosiaster (fl. c. 366-384), on Rom. 4:6, “‘righteousness apart from works’: Paul backs this up by the example of the prophet David, who says that those are blessed of whom God has decreed that, without work or any keeping of the law, they are justified before God by faith alone.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), p. 113.

    Theodore of Mopsuestia
    (350-428), commenting on Rom. 3:28: “Paul did not say we hold because he was himself uncertain. He said it in order to counter those who concluded from this that anyone who wished to could be justified simply by willing faith. Note carefully that Paul does not say simply without the law, as if we could perform virtue by wanting to, nor do we the works of the law by force. We do them because we have been led to do them by Christ.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture, New Testament VI: Romans (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998), pp. 104-105.


    Oecumenius (6th century), on James 2:23: “Abraham is the image of someone who is justified by faith alone, since what he believed was credited to him as righteousness. But he is also approved because of his works, since he offered up his son Isaac on the altar. Of course he did not do this work by itself; in doing it, he remained firmly anchored in his faith, believing that through Isaac his seed would be multiplied until it was as numerous as the stars.” Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 33.

    Jerome (347-420) on Romans 10:3: “God justifies by faith alone.” (Deus ex sola fide justificat). In Epistolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v. 3, PL 30:692D.

    More can be found at the source linked above.
     
  16. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    More quotes on God's grace toward a sinner in regeneration. By grace through faith. (Source already linked):

    Barnabas (A.D. 70): “God gives repentance to us, introducing us into the incorruptible temple.”


    Ignatius: “Pray for them, if so by they may repent, which is very difficult; but Jesus Christ, our true life, has the power of this.”


    Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “Having sometime before convinced us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior, who is able to save them which otherwise were impossible to be saved…Free will has destroyed us; we are sold into sin.”


    Irenaeus (A.D. 180): “Not of ourselves, but of God, is the blessing of our salvation…Man, who was before led captive, is taken out of the power of the possessor, according to the mercy of God the Father, and restoring it, gives salvation to it by the Word; that is, by Christ; that many may experimentally learn that not of himself, but by the gift of God, he receives immortality.”


    Tertullian (A.D. 200): “Do you think, O men, that we should ever have been able to have understood these things in the Scriptures unless by the will of Him that wills all things, we had received grace to understand them?…But by this it is plain, that [faith] is not given to thee by God, because thou dost not ascribe it to Him alone.”


    Cyprian (A.D. 250): “Whatsoever is grateful is to be ascribed not to man’s power, but to God’s gift. It is God’s, I say, all is God’s that we can do. Yea, that in nothing must we glory, since nothing is ours.”


    Arnobius (A.D. 303): “You place the salvation of your souls in yourselves, and trust that you may be made gods by your inward endeavor, yet it is not our own power to reach things above.”


    Lactantius (A.D. 320): “The vistory lies in the will of God, not in thine own. To overcome is not in our power.”


    Athanasius (A.D. 350): “To believe is not ours, or in our power, but the Spirit’s who is in us, and abides in us.”


    Jerome (A.D. 390): “This is the chief righteousness of man, to reckon that whatsoever power he can have, is not his own, but the Lord’s who gives it…See how great is the help of God, and how frail the condition of man that we cannot by any means fulfill this, that we repent, unless the Lord first convert us…When [Jesus] says, ‘No man can come to Me,’ He breaks the proud liberty of free will; for man can desire nothing, and in vain he endeavors…Where is the proud boasting of free will?…We pray in vain if it is in our own will. Why should men pray for that from the Lord which they have in the power of their own free will?”


    Augustine (A.D. 370): “Faith itself is to be attributed to God…Faith is made a gift. These men, however, attribute faith to free will, so grace is rendered to faith not as a gratuitous gift, but as a debt…They must cease from saying this.”
     
  17. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    St. Irenaeus of Lyons (+ca.195):

    We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.
    (Against Heresies, 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.)


    St. Athanasius (c.296-373):

    The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.
    (Against the Heathen, I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)

    St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):

    For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.
    (Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)

    St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):

    ...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.
    (On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)

    St. Gregory of Nyssa:

    Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.
    (On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)


    St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):

    Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.
    (On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

    St. Augustine of Hippo:

    What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.”
    (On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)

    St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407):

    Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things...
    (Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.)

    St. John Chrysostom:

    Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast.
    (Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)


    St. John Chrysostom:

    They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly.
    (Homily 13 on Genesis.)


    Source:

    St. John Chrysostom:

    There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule.
    (Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles [NPNF 1, 11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])


    St. Basil the Great (c.329-379):

    They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases [persons], and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.
    (Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)

    St. Basil the Great:

    What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.
    (The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)


    St. Basil the Great:

    We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.
    (On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)


    St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749):

    It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments.
    (On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)
     
  18. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    :doh: I can't believe you are asking for proof that salvation through Christ alone was an early church doctrine. Must I continue or do you get now?

    Now if you would kindly return to the subject...you admitted the PreTrib Rapture doctrine was a pop doctrines in the 1800's made famous by John Darby. It was due to his Dispensationalism that the whole Rapture idea came about.

    Those are the facts, deal with it.

    jm
    PS: You may have John Gill's works but it seems you haven't read them. It is very clear in Cause of God and Truth that Gill demolishes the Arminian notion of freewill and works religion by reference the classic theologica[SIZE=3]l framework[SIZE=3] know as the Five Solas. He doesn't refer to them[SIZE=3] outright but they are clearly there on [SIZE=3]almost every page. Bec[SIZE=3]ause you are [SIZE=3]probably not going to look it up I'[SIZE=3]ll recommend c[SIZE=3]hapter 2 on Redemption, Gill cleary references the fathers and scripture to show [SIZE=3]redemption is through Christ ALONE[SIZE=3]. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
     
  19. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Sir, I repeat, you don't know what your taking about.

    What was it you said?

    Here again, I provided the Parts and Chapters to "The Cause of God And Truth" by John Gill as you quoted.

    WHat does John Gill teach on in "The Cause of God and Truth"?

    Total Depravity
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement
    Irrestable Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints

    This is, the T.U.L.I.P. outline.

    While you may have shown that a few of the ECF's taught doctrines similar to the five Sola's, the 5 Sola's are the product of the Reformation.

    Consult any encycopedia.

    Five solae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Consult any Theology book.

    Since the section is entirely to long to post here, I refer you to Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology, Moody Press, Chicago, Il, 1989, Part III, Historical Theology, Chapter 30, Reformation Theology, Reformation Leaders, Martin Luther, P. 444 (cf Sola Scriptura), p. 447, Calvin and Zwingly (Christ alone), Reformation Anthropology, Luther and Calvin, p. 448 (cf. Total Depravity), Reformation Soteriology, p. 449 Predestination, (cf Calvin; Unconditional Election), Limited Atonement, View of the Reformers, p. 449

    Consult any History book.

    A History of Christianity, Reformation to the Present, Kenneth Scott Latourette, Revised Edition, Prince Press, Hendrickson Publishers, Third Printing, 1999, Reformation and Expansion, AD 1500 to AD 1975, p. 685-995

    And its funny, you went out of your way to prove me wrong, but go back and look at your own posts.

    While you provided quotes from the ECF's showing that a few of them supported perhaps 3 of the 5 Solas, (cf justification, grace alone, scripture alone)

    You provided nothing to support Christ alone, or to the glory of God alone, and, and , and, Augustine and Jerome were the only ones who even touched or taught on two of the five solas.

    Look at your own posts!

    The Five solas, the foundations on which Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, and Anabaptists stand upon, were a product of the Reformation.

    While I admit that the ECF's did teach here and there, one, two, or even three points on the basis of the 5 Solas, Sola Finde, Sola Scriptura, Sola Christo, Sola Gratia, Sola Deo Gloria, were a product of the Reformation.

    None of them taught all of the 5 solas.

    None.

    And here again, I ask the same question I asked previously, using John Gill's The Cause of God and Truth":

    As you said:

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  20. JM

    JM Absolute Predestinarian Supporter

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    Can the rapture be found in church history? No. You responded by attacking the basic tenets of the faith.



    Fine. Enough with the rabbit trails. Can the rapture be found in church history before 1800? Didn’t think so.



    I gave you a chapter to look at. You ignored it and wrote, “Here again, I provided the Parts and Chapters to "The Cause of God And Truth" by John Gill as you quoted.” Just read Gill’s intro to the work.



    The basics of Reformed theology and you have decided it is easier to ‘rapture’ or remove (lol) the bulk of his argument and reduce it to the 5 points of Calvinism. Do you think the 5 points exist without the 5 solas? Are you really trying to say that?

    And how is that contrary to what I posted? Did you even read the fathers I posted?



    Yes, that’s right. The 5 solas can be found in the early church but NOT THE RAPTURE! NOT AT ALL.



    Already posted…the 5 solas as formulated by the Reformers were presented in a nice and tidy scholastic package. It was not an invention, as you are suggesting, of the Reformers.



    I did. Even posted quotes from the fathers. But what you are suggesting is just ludicrous. To say the 5 solas was the invention of the Reformers ignores the very quote you posted, “are five Latin phrases that emerged during the Protestant Reformation…” Instead of admitting the Rapture doctrine cannot be found in history before 1800 you decide to attack the 5 solas and say, “see they were invented by the Reformers,” no, your source agreed that the Reformers formatted a response to the false teaching of the Catholic church.

     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
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