Yes.
Please demonstrate that from the Scriptures for me!
Therefore, I cannot be adamant that the pretribulation rapture was not taught in the early church. However, I have not been convinced to this point in time. However, I must admit that I have not pursued all of Geisler's material.
Don't do it!
You'll be attacked left and right!
On one page, this same person posted:
You'll be branded a heretic and accused of spreading a "false doctrine"!
And then your challenged to prove it from scripture.
Don't do it.
Heed my warning!
I am encouraging you to unsubscribe and let sleeping dogs lie.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Don't do it!
You'll be attacked left and right!
On one page, this same person posted:
You'll be branded a heretic and accused of spreading a "false doctrine"!
And then your challenged to prove it from scripture.
Don't do it.
Heed my warning!
I am encouraging you to unsubscribe and let sleeping dogs lie.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Unfortunately, the state of the Church these days is becoming New Age and new ideas. I do believe in the Rapture as do many top-rank Christian theologians have and still do. There are many people who don't believe in the Rapture. There are also those who feel that we have to do away with the first eleven chapters of Genesis to make religion more palatable to the younger folks. I believe that both are wrong. However, I won't get into a long drawn out discussion (read fight) with those who don't agree with me. If these people want a fight, they can put on the gloves and find someone else. They don't have the last word and best understanding of Scriptures although they have enough pride to believe they know best. They can rant and rave all day long if they wish. I don't have the inclination to humor them.
In other words "I'm right. Don't confuse me with facts." The "Rapture" is not going to be as anyone has described it. Read Rev 20 & 21.
Unfortunately, the state of the Church these days is becoming New Age and new ideas. I do believe in the Rapture as do many top-rank Christian theologians have and still do. There are many people who don't believe in the Rapture. There are also those who feel that we have to do away with the first eleven chapters of Genesis to make religion more palatable to the younger folks. I believe that both are wrong. However, I won't get into a long drawn out discussion (read fight) with those who don't agree with me. If these people want a fight, they can put on the gloves and find someone else. They don't have the last word and best understanding of Scriptures although they have enough pride to believe they know best. They can rant and rave all day long if they wish. I don't have the inclination to humor them.
Dean,Don't do it!
You'll be attacked left and right!
On one page, this same person posted:
You'll be branded a heretic and accused of spreading a "false doctrine"!
And then your challenged to prove it from scripture.
Don't do it.
Heed my warning!
I am encouraging you to unsubscribe and let sleeping dogs lie.
God Bless
Till all are one.
See, already started.
God Bless
Till all are one.
Dean,
This is a very provocative approach by you. To demonstrate that the Rapture is contained in the Gospel is an dimension of biblical theology or not.
When I made the above statement (you did not mention my name but you were referring to my quote) about Norm Geisler's understanding of a chronological logical fallacy re the late understanding of the pretrib Rapture, you commended me for what I wrote. So what do you do here? You tell a poster to unsubscribe. I find this to be a hypocritical approach.
If you or anyone else cannot defend the Rapture as included in the Gospel, it should not be raised. Why would you be concerned that others might bring forth Scripture to contradict 'the Gospel includes the Rapture' teaching? If it is biblical, it needs support. If it is unbiblical, it needs exposing.
In Christ, Oz
I have never ever written that I have no evidence against the pre-trib rapture on CF. I said that I had not read all of Norm Geisler's material in support of it.You also could the same thing be said.
You post that you haven't any evidence against it per se, and quote Geisler, opening the door, but then you turn around and challenge another to prove it from scripture, thus slaming the door in their face.
Talk about a "hypocritical approach" from me.
Hello pot, this is kettle.
God Bless
Till all are one.
I have never ever written that I have no evidence against the pre-trib rapture on CF. I said that I had not read all of Norm Geisler's material in support of it.
There is nothing hypocritical about this. It is only your allegation against me - which is false.
Since you have become nasty in your attitude towards me, I choose not to respond to you any further on this topic.
Oz
I cannot be adamant that the pretribulation rapture was not taught in the early church.
OZ said:Historically, there were others before J N Darby...
Norm Geisler, "fallacy of chronological snobbery which wrongly argues that truth can be determined by time"
Ephraem of Syria
Dean said:"Progressive Revelation".
Charles Hodge
You might be interested in reading Tim Warner, 'The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine' that gives some of the information to which I referred. However, I was not familiar with this article until just now when I searched for info on the www on Macdonald, Irving and Lacunza.It is because the time of the world's doom draweth nigh, it is because the time of the sealing is come, it is because the Lord is nigh, even at the door. It is because there is no safety where you are, because you cannot be sealed where you are, it is because if you are not sealed you must be left in tribulations, while those who have obeyed His voice shall be caught up to meet Him (Sitwell in MacPherson 1983:63).
I have provided some additional information that may challenge your assertion that Darby invented the doctrine. You may consider that it cannot be supported by Scripture. Why don't you read Norman Geisler's defense of the pre-trib rapture from Scripture in Systematic Theology, vol 4. 2005. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse, pp 612-635?The truth of the matter, Darby invented the doctrine, it never existed before him because it cannot be supported by scripture.
I would like to see you quote them and if you can't its just an assertion. Even Ryrie isn't able to quote anyone before Darby teaching Dispensational PreTrib Rapturism.
...and so you plan on defending what you believe to be a logical fallacy by creating a logical fallacy: appealing to authority? The truth of the matter, Darby invented the doctrine, it never existed before him because it cannot be supported by scripture.
Already posted about psudeo-Ephraem who did not teach the PreTrib rapture. Please re-visit the post.
You are misusing Hodge. He is not defending Dispensationalism.
DISPENSATIONALISM AND COVENANT THEOLOGY | Against Dispensationalism
Folks, its really simple, the church never believed in the Dispensational PreTrib rapture. You can't claim ignorance on this subject.
A little FYI: both you guys are on my ignore list, so expect no further replies from me.
Unsubscribing.
God Bless
TIll all are one.
I thought you were as capable as I in using Google...
You might be interested in reading Tim Warner, 'The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Doctrine' that gives some of the information to which I referred. However, I was not familiar with this article until just now when I searched for info on the www on Macdonald, Irving and Lacunza.
Oz said:You don't seem to have liked the fact to identify a chronological logical fallacy by claiming that the pre-trib rapture does not necessarily make it invalid.
Oz said:I have simply used another's research to show the nature of a chronological fallacy when applied to the pre-trib rapture.
I think you have helped me and others out with that article by Warner. It doesn't really cause me to doubt JND as the man behind the system though, if you re-read the article and draw your own conclusion, you'll see Darby was the man.I hope I've provided enough grist for the mill to at least cause some doubt that J N Darby was the first to promote the pre-trib rapture.