Tree of Life

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...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

While I know that Calvin taught that God designed for moral evil to be in his creation I'm not aware of Calvin calling God the "author" of moral evil. This passage from Calvin may be referring to "evils" in the sense of "calamities". I would have to read it in its context. The Westminster Standards, which are heavily based on Calvin and within his tradition, uses these words:

"God, from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, not is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (WCF 3.1)

It's important for Calvinists to say that while God ordained sin to come to pass he is not the author of sin. This means that sin comes from the creatures and that God himself does not sin. An example of this is found in Genesis 50 when Joseph is recounting his ordeals to his brothers. He said of their sin: "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." God ordained the actions of Joseph's brothers. They were agents in those scenes and God was an agent. They meant those actions for evil but God meant the same actions for good. A profound mystery!

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

Yes God ordains sin.

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

Yes God uses the sins of others to execute his justice. He used sinful Babylon to destroy Jerusalem (Habakkuk 1:5-11) and then later punished Babylon for this (Habakkuk 2:6-20)!​

2. God predestines to Hell
…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 2, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

Many professing a desire to defend the Deity from an individual charge admit the doctrine of election, but deny that any one is reprobated. This they do ignorantly and childishly, since there could be no election without its opposite, reprobation. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

With Augustine I say: the Lord has created those whom he unquestionably foreknew would go to destruction. This has happened because he has willed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 5)


Yeah no problems here. Calvin rightly taught this biblical truth. Proverbs 16:4.

3. There is no free will
We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

God causes everything and of necessity, that is, in accordance with his providence. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 253)

Everything that happens, happens of necessity, as God has ordained. (John Calvin, The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, 1996, pg. 258)

Central to [Calvin's] case is the distinction between necessity and coercion.[74] Necessity he defines as "a fixed, steady state in which a thing cannot be otherwise than it is." He agrees with Aristotle that necessity is the opposite of "the existence of alternative possibilities" (335). The necessity to sin means that sinners cannot other than sin. (Lane, 31)

I don't see anywhere in these quotes where Calvin mentions the free will of man. Calvin taught that man has free will so long as we understand the concept in the compatibalist sense.
 
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Monk Brendan

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…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

How does this glorify God? How does anyone sent to hell glorify God?
 
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Monk Brendan

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can someone quote me the part where God forced satan to become evil?

Forgive me for speaking, but God did not force satan to become evil. Lucifer was the tip of the spear, if you will. He was, outside of God, the most beautiful thing in the universe. However, he also had pride, not the justifiable pride that God had made him the wonderful, but an arrogant pride, "I will be like the most High." That type of pride IS evil, and it IS a sin. Satan IS the author of sin and evil. God did not design it. God did not create it. But because satan had free will, he could come up with such an idea on his own.
 
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Monk Brendan

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God's justice glorifies Him.

And that is poor answer, as it denies God's mercy. God's justice must balance with God's mercy. If He is only justice, then ALL will end up in hell. If he denies His justice, and only uses mercy, then sin is let into heaven, and we are just as bad off as we are now.
 
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Tree of Life

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And that is poor answer, as it denies God's mercy. God's justice must balance with God's mercy. If He is only justice, then ALL will end up in hell. If he denies His justice, and only uses mercy, then sin is let into heaven, and we are just as bad off as we are now.

To say that God is glorified when his justice is displayed is not to say that God is not merciful. He is also glorified in his mercy. But God does indeed justly punish sinners. God is glorified even in the destruction of Jerusalem. God is glorified at all times and in everything he does. And this includes justly punishing the wicked.
 
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Hammster

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And that is poor answer, as it denies God's mercy. God's justice must balance with God's mercy. If He is only justice, then ALL will end up in hell. If he denies His justice, and only uses mercy, then sin is let into heaven, and we are just as bad off as we are now.
Where did I deny mercy?
 
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Monk Brendan

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Where did I deny mercy?

I did not say YOU yourself, personally. It is Calvin that denies it,
…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

Calvin, in making God such an inflexible being has created a monster with NO mercy, and only 5 (for instance) out of the dead in 9/11 got to heaven, and the rest, no matter how pious, no matter how much they loved God, no matter how secure they were in their salvation went straight to hell. That is Calvin denying God's mercy. That is why I find his teachings reprehensible.
 
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zippy2006

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While I know that Calvin taught that God designed for moral evil to be in his creation I'm not aware of Calvin calling God the "author" of moral evil. This passage from Calvin may be referring to "evils" in the sense of "calamities". I would have to read it in its context. The Westminster Standards, which are heavily based on Calvin and within his tradition, uses these words:

"God, from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, not is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (WCF 3.1)

It's important for Calvinists to say that while God ordained sin to come to pass he is not the author of sin. This means that sin comes from the creatures and that God himself does not sin. An example of this is found in Genesis 50 when Joseph is recounting his ordeals to his brothers. He said of their sin: "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." God ordained the actions of Joseph's brothers. They were agents in those scenes and God was an agent. They meant those actions for evil but God meant the same actions for good. A profound mystery!

Thanks for your response. I am familiar with this passage from the WCF and I think it deviates from Calvin. While it is possible that Calvin meant calamities rather than moral evil, this would surprise me in light of his all-encompassing understanding of God's sovereignty.

I don't see anywhere in these quotes where Calvin mentions the free will of man. Calvin taught that man has free will so long as we understand the concept in the compatibalist sense.

Calvin disliked the term "free will" because he thought it created misunderstandings but was willing to use it alongside heavy explanation. His real concern was to safeguard man's responsibility more than man's freedom, and he believed that responsibility was compatible with necessity but not compatible with coercion.

Yet the common sense position is that necessity destroys responsibility and freedom, and that free will is incompatible with determinism. That is why I (justifiably) see Calvin's claims as a denial of free will. And I hardly think Calvin would disagree considering what is commonly meant by "free will."
 
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Tree of Life

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Yet the common sense position is that necessity destroys responsibility and freedom, and that free will is incompatible with determinism. That is why I (justifiably) see Calvin's claims as a denial of free will. And I hardly think Calvin would disagree considering what is commonly meant by "free will."

Is this really what is commonly meant by "free will" or "freedom"? In philosophical conversations, which are far from common, this may be the meaning. But in every day usage "free" means "I can do what I want" and "not free" means "I cannot do what I want". Man is certainly free in this sense in the Calvinist worldview. Unless a man is in prison or otherwise constrained he is able to do as he pleases.
 
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Hammster

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I did not say YOU yourself, personally. It is Calvin that denies it,


Calvin, in making God such an inflexible being has created a monster with NO mercy, and only 5 (for instance) out of the dead in 9/11 got to heaven, and the rest, no matter how pious, no matter how much they loved God, no matter how secure they were in their salvation went straight to hell. That is Calvin denying God's mercy. That is why I find his teachings reprehensible.
Where are you getting that from?
 
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Monk Brendan

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Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)

Where did Calvin get this from?
 
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zippy2006

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Is this really what is commonly meant by "free will" or "freedom"? In philosophical conversations, which are far from common, this may be the meaning. But in every day usage "free" means "I can do what I want" and "not free" means "I cannot do what I want". Man is certainly free in this sense in the Calvinist worldview. Unless a man is in prison or otherwise constrained he is able to do as he pleases.

Let's look at the dictionary definition:
  1. voluntary choice or decision
  2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
Calvinism certainly excludes (2), but does it exclude (1)? I think a basic condition of a choice or decision (and freedom) is the ability to have chosen otherwise. If I am shown apples and oranges and I choose an apple, the common view of choice holds that I could have chosen an orange. For Calvin, there is no possibility to choose otherwise.
 
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Tree of Life

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Let's look at the dictionary definition:
  1. voluntary choice or decision
  2. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention
Calvinism certainly excludes (2), but does it exclude (1)? I think a basic condition of a choice or decision (and freedom) is the ability to have chosen otherwise. If I am shown apples and oranges and I choose an apple, the common view of choice holds that I could have chosen an orange. For Calvin, there is no possibility to choose otherwise.

Calvinism excludes (2) but does not exclude (1). Sinners voluntarily sin and regenerate worshippers of God voluntarily worship him. This is all we Calvinists mean when we say "freedom". This is usually what the common person means when they use this word in casual conversation. No need to dive any deeper.
 
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Forgive me for speaking, but God did not force satan to become evil. Lucifer was the tip of the spear, if you will. He was, outside of God, the most beautiful thing in the universe. However, he also had pride, not the justifiable pride that God had made him the wonderful, but an arrogant pride, "I will be like the most High." That type of pride IS evil, and it IS a sin. Satan IS the author of sin and evil. God did not design it. God did not create it. But because satan had free will, he could come up with such an idea on his own.
i totally agree, but i guess calvin says God forced satan to become evil

i was wanting a quote from calvin's writings saying this
 
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