I started watching the first video.
Excellent. Did you finish it, and completely watch all of it?
It's by an SDA pastor Jeff Dowell
Truly, but what does that have to do with the material presented? What if the same material were presented by another, not of the same faith as the person in the video, would that make the difference to your mind?
Simply referring to the person, does not address the subject, neither the material the person is bringing to light. It is generally an Ad Hominem approach to discussion, and ends up distracting from the main OP.
Are you going to be discussing the subject or Pastor Jeff Dowell personally?
attacking another person who happens to be a what SDA people call a former.
I did not see any 'attacking' another person or persons, by Pastor Jeff Dowell, unless you can point to a specific incident, and define by what you mean 'attacking'.
What I saw, was Pastor Jeff Dowell addressing the material (written books, comments, etc) of several persons, including one 'Dale Ratzlaff' (but not merely, nor only). What I saw was contrasting information, from one source to another.
This is how study is to be done, by testing what is stated and written by any to the scripture, history, etc.
Evidently SDA people can't talk about the sabbath without trying to destroy others.
Can you point to a specific example of Pastor Jeff Dowell, in the video series, specifically video 1 that you partially watched at the time of posting, where he was 'trying to destroy others'?
I saw no evidence of that, and therefore, would like you to be specific with time indexes, so that I and others can check your claim, in detail, and rather not in vagueness. This would be appreciated. Thank you.
Even if Pastor Jeff Dowell did do so as you claim, though I saw no evidence of it, and do not grant such a point, that would not validate the extension of your claim, namely, that 'SDA people can't talk about the sabbath without trying to destroy others.' What you did was a logical fallacy, based upon, presently, a personal apriori (as the claim is undocumented), that you included all SDA based upon a single individual. That is not only illogical, but it is also quite unjust to the many other SDA. Why would you lump all together like that? However, first things first, please demonstrate with time indexes the claim. Thank you.
Based on this Jeff Dowell/you have nothing of value to say concerning the sabbath.
I am not Pastor Jeff Dowell, and do not agree with every statement, piece of material presented by Pastor Jeff Dowell, though I think that the vast majority, 99% of it, is valid thought, material, documentation.
I have been presenting in this thread my own thoughts, and not merely regurgitating the thought of another, especially this Pastor Jeff Dowell, whom I do not know personally. I just happened to come across the videos on youtube and thought they were good for discussion on the subject of the sabbath. They are a springboard for the topic, not my final thoughts.
Therefore, please address my questions, if you do not desire to address the video material specifically, with time indexes. Thank you.
Of course the sabbath is an interesting subject for you.
How can you say, 'Of course ...'?
My bet is you're not really interested in open honest discussion on the subject.
I do not gamble, I am a Christian.
All of my questions are most earnest, and come from the personal desire to personally know. Thank you.
What then is your real interest and focus or purpose?
The OP states my purpose.
Is it not true that the SDA literature says one can't have salvation without observing the 7th day sabbath?
Where does the "SDA literature" say such a thing as you ask about? Having read quite a bit on many sides, I cannot say that I have ever found any such statement in official SDA materials. Therefore, if you know of such a quote, please produce that citation with links to the original source, thank you.
I suppose you need the quote from your church's literature.
I would need the quote, absolutely, for I cannot just take someone's word over an official statement, now can I?
It can be provided on request.
So requested, please produce the statement. Thank you. I will then check all the places it has been produced on this forum, and see the responses as given by others after reading the statement in its original context.
It has been posted quite a few time in this section of the forum by different people.
That's all extra window-washing. All I need is evidence from the one making the claim.
I have in my library 4 out of the 5 book set by EGW, courtesy of SDA people.
Are you referring to the Conflict of the Ages series, [1] Patriarchs and Prophets, [2] Prophets and Kings, [3] The Desire of Ages, [4] Acts of the Apostles, [5] The Great Controversy?
If so, that, from what I understand is a very small portion of the whole, not including the 9 volume set of the Testimonies to the Church, Steps to Christ, Ministry of Healing, Christ's Object Lessons, and so on.
You can have access to all of the EGW material by going to:
Ellen G. White Writings
Ellen G. White Writings in Multiple Languages
Ellen G. White® Estate: Home
etc.
You can even listen to the audio books here -
Myers Media
I also have a few other SDA pieces of literature.
I am interested, what do you specifically have by Title, and have you read them (entire), or merely collect them?
I talked with and SDA person for a decade and had to tell them not come back to my house.
As is your prerogative.
I was cussed by them because on their voluntary confession they couldn't prove me wrong.
Anecdotal, and I would have to take you at your word, which presently I am not inclined to do, but even if I gave the benefit of the doubt, I would simply point to others such as Pastor Jeff Dowell, an official representative of the Seventh-day Adventist movement, or to any others. So, even if granted such a person did do such a thing (and I do not at present grant it), that is no evidence to the many others who do not such thing. For instance, among the disciples of Jesus was the 'Judas', and also a Peter, who called down curses, a Thomas who doubted, etc.
I am interested in the theological/practical of what the faith believes, not how any one individual person acts.
You will find I do not cuss, but present scripture, history, documentation, argumentation, etc
Since you claim an interest in the sabbath, I've a few questions for you -
That's fine, but I surely would like some reciprocation upon the points and questions I have already asked also, since this is not a one-way street, nor interrogation, where you get to ask and not answer. That would not be following the way of Jesus Christ.
Who was the sabbath given to
This was already answered in a previous post, however, before re-answering it, I want to look at the assumptions, the apriori, your question contains, namely, [1] it assumes that "the sabbath" was in existence to give, and [2] it assumes "the" (definite article), and [3] it assumes not "a" (indefinite article), and [4] it assumes "the sabbath" is "the" possession of someone in order to be able to "give" it to another.
If we read in scripture the Gospel of Mark chapter 2, we read:
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Mar 2:27 και ελεγεν αυτοις το σαββατον δια τον ανθρωπον εγενετο ουχ ο ανθρωπος δια το σαββατον
Mar 2:28 ωστε κυριος εστιν ο υιος του ανθρωπου και του σαββατου
Therefore, God's word plainly states that:
"the sabbath" (to sabbaton (x2), tou sabbatou (x1)) (definite article)
was "made" (egeneto (x1)) (refers to Creation, Genesis 1-2)
"for" (dia (x1)) (the purpose of being 'made')
"the man" (ton anthrwpon (x1), o anthrwpos (x1), tou anthrwpou (x1)) (definite article, and anthrwpos, is all of humanity, or mankind, the race of man, which is found again at Creation, in Adam)
This statement by Jesus refers to Creation of Adam in Genesis, wherein all things were "made" by Jesus. Since the passage also gives to us the 'purpose' ("for"), we know that God gave the sabbath to mankind, having been made for mankind, or in other words, all mankind in Adam, the first man. A similar statement is found in Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, wherein it is the "whole" "duty" of "man" to keep God's commandments, and we see again in Isaiah 66:22-23, that even "all flesh", in the New Heavens and New Earth come and worship before God from "one sabbath to another".
In Genesis, we see the very same words used as found in the so-called LXX.
Where does the word "sabbath" first appear in Scripture
Are you asking about the English (KJB) or the Hebrew Masoretic, or even the so-called LXX Greek? I will need you to be specific in this question please.
What is the purpose of the sabbath
The "purpose' is found in the commandment (4th, Exodus 20:8-11) itself, ntoice with me please:
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The word "for" is the 'purpose' or 'reason', as given by God.
Is the sabbath ceremonial in nature
"The sabbath", is not 'ceremonial in nature', but the entirety of the Law of God, the Ten Commandments, is 'spiritual' in 'nature':
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom_7:14 For we know that
the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
It is also 'holy, just and good' in 'nature':
Rom 7:12 Wherefore
the law is holy, and the commandment
holy, and just, and good.
It is 'life' in 'nature':
Rom 7:10 And
the commandment, which was
ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
What does keeping the sabbath entail
It would depend upon the contextual setting, ultimately. However, some basics, or foundational definition, is found in Exodus 20:8-11, and in the pure example of Jesus Christ, the living witness.
Do you keep the sabbath given to Israel or an amended version
I keep the sabbath given to "the man".
Your question is assuming "the sabbath" was merely "given to Israel" (by which you seem to only mean Moses and the peoples in Exodus), and I do not agree with this assumption, as per my previous response above.
Is there any passage in the NT requiring the observance of the sabbath
This question assumes that God has to repeat Himself from Exodus 20:8-11, however, God gave us specific instruction in John 14:15, in which Jesus cited Exodus 20:6, the heart of the Ten Commandments. There are other such places as needed.
For instance, can you show me the 3rd Commandment (Exodus 20:7) explicitly restated anywhere in the NT texts (Matthew - Revelation), or 'commanded' explicitly?
From another perspective, if I were to give several paragraphs of information, and state a rule, a Law (Thermodynamics, etc), at the beginning, let's say a science book, or whatever, and then complete the work several years later, by many more paragraphs, and statement many more rules, laws, ect, and never mention the one rule/law (Thermodynamics, etc) again in the entire work, does that negate the rule/law because it is not repeated verbatim?
Exactly who in the NT do we see keeping the sabbath
Can we begin with Jesus? and then look at others?
No generalization, specifics only.
I have been as specific as I am able to be at the moment, until I receive further detail from yourself.
Keeping the sabbath is a personal religious choice.
That is your apriori, and assumption, and I do not agree with you, based upon the evidence as found in scripture.
If you wish to do so I've no objection.
Whether you did nor not, I would still reply.
I do object to requiring it of others to eat from the tree of life (have salvation).
When you use the word 'salvation' what is the definition you are using, please be specific.
What is mankind being 'saved'
from specifically?
My sole purpose of this post is honest dialogue.
We shall all soon see.
Are you truly interested?
The OP statement and intent has not changed.