Questions about iconography...

[Blackknight]

Somebody asked a question about the Pentecost icon today and I was wondering if one of you knew.

Why is Paul included in the icon of Pentecost, but not Matthias?

 

[Michael G]

The way my priest explained it is this: Paul was ordained by Christ to be the 12th Apostle, while Matthias was chosen by the Apostles. The Church in it's infancy did not have the fullness of wisdom that it now has. Thus the Apostles took what they knew, namely that there needed to be a replacement for Judas and acted on it prayerfully. They did not know to look arround and see who God had chosen to replace Judas.

 

[Blackknight]

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[eellson]

Hi, this is my first post! I've been looking for a place to discuss icons for a while so I'm glad to have found the site. I hope it's no problem to make my first post in this thread!

Anyway I have been trying to find out more about a certain icon:

Ah I can't post an image with my first post! There is an image here:

iconiccollection.com/images/IMG_4338.JPG

I have been told it is called 'Rejoice in thee' but I am not totally convinced, as it does not seem to be the same as most examples of this icon I have seen. I am not even 100% certain that it is Mary in the center!

However I am no expert so I am probably wrong. I also cannot find much information about the Rejoice in Thee icon, apart from it being based on the hymn All of Creation Rejoices in You. Can you tell me anything about it's origins?

And are the people depicted at the bottom merely spectators or are they depicting other events?

And is that God at the top? I thought it was incorrect to portray Him in icons...

Thanks, I am relatively new to iconography but am finding it more interesting the more I find out!

 

[Anhelyna]

You have certainly got my interest - and I'm no Iconographer .

They state it's 19th Century and the price is £ 1800 [ $2622.5 ]

They have another version of it too

On the version to which you linked I would agreee that at the top is a representation of God holding what would appear to be a globe [ the earth ? ] in His hand . Strictly speaking this would make it non-canonical BUT since it is Russian my reaction would be that it is simply following the style of that time.

The central figure is definitely that of the Theotokos - one of the stars [ remember the 3 stars are traditionally placed on her shoulders and head ] is visible , and she is crowned [ not that unusual ] as is her Son

The lower tier is certainly interesting and the zoom feature isn't working properly for me there

I'd like to see a larger copy of this

Where's Michael or Nutroll or Julia when you want them ?

I find the Site interesting - it's a mixture of things and I would wonder about the provenance of these Icons.

They are certainly keen on not giving too much information about themselves
Timeless Collection - Antiques, Russian Icons, Persian Carpets, Vintage Couture Clothing for sale

OK the landline phone number is outer London - but that covers 'a multitude of sins '

Hmmmmmmm

 

[MKJ]

I have a question, and my assumptions might mean it is totally nonsensical.

As I understand it, there are rules in the depictions in icons, for example, a particular saint or scene must be shown in a particular way, or within particular parameters.

I also understand that these have developed over time in many cases.

What happens when there is a new saint? (Are icons even made of new saints?)

 

[Michael G]

I have a question, and my assumptions might mean it is totally nonsensical.

As I understand it, there are rules in the depictions in icons, for example, a particular saint or scene must be shown in a particular way, or within particular parameters.

I also understand that these have developed over time in many cases.

What happens when there is a new saint? (Are icons even made of new saints?)

The saint is depicted within the norms of his/her rank of saint, occupation in life, and with respect to how they looked.

For example, about 8 years ago I was asked to form a prototype icon of Metropolitan Leonty, who is currently up for glorification as a saint. I was able to do this easily because he was a Metropolitan, so I gave him the proper robes/headdress for a Metropolitan and I had a few pictures of him so I knew he was to look old and have a long white beard.

 

[eellson]

Thanks Anhelyna that's helpful! I think you must be right about it being God, I have a larger copy of the image and it appears that he is holding a 'globus cruciger'. Non-canon I suppose but then again I have seen other icons featuring God. In fact the site has an icon called 'Sabaoth with Seraphim and Cherubim' which has God as the main subject of the image.

Thanks for pointing out the stars! I didn't notice them, but now I can see all 3 (It almost looks like there is a fourth towards the bottom of Her cloak but I'm sure it must be a speck on the image).

I have a larger image but as I haven't done alot of posting I can't put it on here! In fact I ought to disclose that my job is maintaining this website, which is why I linked directly to the image before instead of the product listing; I don't want to be a spammer! My boss inherited all of these icons, it is quite a collection! I'd love to show you a larger image of the lower tier but am not sure how really? Does anyone know if this icon is based solely on the hymn?

Thanks!

 

[MKJ]

The saint is depicted within the norms of his/her rank of saint, occupation in life, and with respect to how they looked.

For example, about 8 years ago I was asked to form a prototype icon of Metropolitan Leonty, who is currently up for glorification as a saint. I was able to do this easily because he was a Metropolitan, so I gave him the proper robes/headdress for a Metropolitan and I had a few pictures of him so I knew he was to look old and have a long white beard.

Ah, thanks. That is very logical.

 

[Dismas85]

I remember reading somewhere that ICONS should be two dimensional. It had something to do with the different viewing levels or something similar. Any insight on this?

Peace.

 

[ScottsWife]

do icons have to be in color? is it possible to write them in graphite?

 

[nutroll]

That depends on how narrowly you define the word "icon." Strictly speaking, the word means "image." And yet so much of what makes an icon as we know it lies in the stylized features, the symbols, and naturally the colors as well. But anything that bears the image of Christ (and icons of the Saints bear His image as well) is an icon. It may be somewhat lacking in terms of the message that it conveys without the color, but it would still be venerable to a certain extent.

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

In looking for an answer about icons- I came across this article by Michael Goltz. I just wanted to say thank you Michael for a very informative article on icons! If it's been posted elsewhere on these forums I apologize for re-posting.

I did not find the answer to my question though. So, if anyone would be so kind- When Saints are holding The Gospel, why is it sometimes not directly in their hands, but held through their robes?

Forgive my ignorance.

In IC XC,

Michael

 

[ikonographics]

Their hands are covered as a sign of reverence towards the Holy Gospel.

 

[michaeldimmickjr]

Thank you very much for answering my question!

In IC XC,

Michael

 

[St. Columcille]

I am presently inquiring into Eastern Orthodoxy. I have recently asked if it was possible to have a handpainted icon of the San Damiano Crucifix made with certain changes, of course, from St. Elizabeth Convent.

The changes I requested were to remove the Latin INRI and replace it with the Greek. Also, to use the three Capadocian fathers and the fourth being St. John Chrysostom. The reply back was that it was doable, but Christ's eyes would also have to be closed.

What I was therefore wondering, what exactly was the Syrian influence in the San Damiano crucifix? Also, due to that particular crucifix being painted around 1100, not very far after the split... and I am sure they didn't have internet in those days so that everyone was completely aware and there still existed some friendly relations in certain pockets... was there ever any crucifixes made in any Orthodox rite that might have had Jesus' eyes open?

My current theory being perhaps that the ruins of San Damiano parish might have been at one time an Orthodox parish as EO Syrian monks did live in the region at that time.

 

[MamaBug]

A question for the Iconographers here on TAW. I am working on my first Icon and, since I have absolutely no painting/drawing skills beyond kindergarten-stick-figure level, I am using the only talent God endowed me with - my needle. I found a beautiful kit that I've started on (Christus Pantokrator - cross-stitch kit by Thea Gouverneur) that is a reproduction of this Icon:

Since it is a reproduction, some of the colors/areas are faded and I want to bring them out a bit better. The pattern calls for some metallic threads of various colors in the background and some non-metallic. One thing I am going to do is use gold blending filament with the non-metallic threads. For the non-sewers, what the blending filament will do is give a slight golden sparkle to the color area yet keep the colors the same so as not to distort the shading on the pattern. Essentially blending filaments and metallic threads serve the same purpose in needlework that gold leaf does in painting, only with some more versatility as I can get a wide variety of colors.

As to my questions:

1. Would it be appropriate to use the blending filament in the cover of the Gospel book? I don't have access to many hand painted Icons so I don't know if it is typical/okay to use gold leaf in this area. The pattern calls for some orangey-browns with reddish closures.

2. Would it be appropriate to use blending filament or metallic thread for the 'jewels' in the gospel cover.

3. The pattern has almost obliterated the halo, which I hope to bring back out, as well as the lettering. I can see IC in the upper left corner and presume XC should be in the upper right. The things I am not certain about:

A. I also guess from looking at other Icons that the Greek letters W N O should be in the left-upper-right sections of the halo. I noticed that the halo is usually divided by lines, but am not clear on the pattern as sometimes there are 2 and sometimes 1. What is correct?

B. I am completely unable to make out the words to the right and left of the figure just above the shoulders - any help here would be appreciated.

C. I also can't make out the words to the right and left of the center of the halo.

4. Final, completely unrelated question. The creator of this kit has another one I am debating doing. It would require much more in the way of restoration work though. I've asked her company for information on the source and received no reply so was wondering if anyone here knows more about the Icon this is a reproduction of:

Mother of God - cross-stitch kit by Thea Gouverneur

Thanks for your help!

 

[-Kyriaki-]

I have a WIP icon of St Nicholas in my stash, which I should get around to working on again but I've been busy with two other projects in the last year. If you can do petit point, or work on silk gauze, Solaria does beautiful slavic-ish style icons, no restoration work needed

Here's the link:
Menu Religious designs

And here's my favourite of the new ones she's put up:
Design: Iveron Theotokos (after orthodox icon)

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

Not knowing if any Iconographers are still around answering but, I do have a question. Why are icon's written in which God the Father is shown? I only as this because he is the only part of the Trinity that was never "expressed" in a "material" way so I was just wondering

 

[-Kyriaki-]

Because people break the rules. Christ can be depicted as the "Ancient of Days", which can be mistaken for God the Father, but mostly it's just icons that were painted 'wrong' in the first place and then copied.