Questions about iconography...

[Michael G]

Thanks for the answer to my previous questions!

I have another: is there any historical depiction of the Transfiguration in the Celtic style?

I have not seen one, but I will look again when I am in my studio and I have the Book of Kells at hand.

 

[Megaloskhemos]

Thank you sir; I really appreciate it!

 

[88Devin07]

Okay, I have some questions about some of the icons in the Church I'm currently attending here in Greece...

This first one is a smaller dome on the southeastern side of the Church.
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It's apparently of Christ as a younger man, the Greek says: "Ο ΕΜΜΑ ΝΩΗΛ"

The second icon appears to be one of God the Father, but I'm not quite sure...
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The third icon appears to be the Holy Trinity, but it's a bit different than the Hospitality of Abraham (which you can see on the other wall to the lower-right)
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And this last icon appears to be Christ giving communion to the Apostles?
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This icon was in the Church of Savior in Chora in Constantinople, what exactly is it?
http://img534.imageshack.us/i/icon05.jpg/
If it helps, there is an inner-narthex and an exo-narthex, the images depicted in them are composed of the lives of Christ & the Theotokos. (including the death of the innocents)

Also, I figured I have a couple other questions I had asked in another thread, but I thought it'd be more appropriate to have them here...

Why is St. John the Baptist depicted with wings?
http://img716.imageshack.us/i/icon06n.jpg/

Is the icon called "Holy Family" of Joseph with Mary and Christ considered Orthodox? (I know it's a western influence, but it seems quite nice to me)
http://s3.hubimg.com/u/1813118_f260.jpg
http://images.marketplaceadvisor.ch...46577/10_4_07_icons_the_holy_family_email.jpg
http://www.greekinternetmarket.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/2436-04004B.jpg
To find other images just search "Holy Family Icon" in Google. I was told by a very kind Old Calendarist man in an Icon Shop that it's not Orthodox, but I wanted to get a second opinion.

 

[Michael G]

Icon #1 is Christ Emmanuel. Christ Emmanuel is the icon of Christ as a young boy and takes a few different forms. It is a perfectly Orthodox icon.

Icon #2, I am not sure. I can't read Greek. I doubt it is God the Father because there is no marking in the halo. I could be wrong.

Icon #3 is simply awesome. It is the Icon of the Three Young Men in the Firey Furnace from the Book of Daniel/Song of the Three Young Men. This is an icon that I am really itching to paint. This is not the Hospitality of Abraham.

Icon #4 is Christ communing the Apostles. This is a perfectly Orthodox icon.

Icon #5, I am not sure, as I can't read the insciption. It could be Mary Magdalene before Ceasar, but I doubt it because in that icon Ceasar would be holding a red egg.

St. John the Forerunner has wings because of the angelic nature of his work.

The Holy Family icon is not un-Orthodox, meaning there is nothing in our teaching which prevents the icon from existing. Yes, it is highly influenced by Catholicism, but there is nothing uncanonical/heretical/etc about it. I would much rather see someone venerating a Holy Family icon than an icon of the old man with the star of David in his halo.

 

[88Devin07]

Icon #1 is Christ Emmanuel. Christ Emmanuel is the icon of Christ as a young boy and takes a few different forms. It is a perfectly Orthodox icon.

Icon #2, I am not sure. I can't read Greek. I doubt it is God the Father because there is no marking in the halo. I could be wrong.

Icon #3 is simply awesome. It is the Icon of the Three Young Men in the Firey Furnace from the Book of Daniel/Song of the Three Young Men. This is an icon that I am really itching to paint. This is not the Hospitality of Abraham.

Icon #4 is Christ communing the Apostles. This is a perfectly Orthodox icon.

Icon #5, I am not sure, as I can't read the insciption. It could be Mary Magdalene before Ceasar, but I doubt it because in that icon Ceasar would be holding a red egg.

St. John the Forerunner has wings because of the angelic nature of his work.

The Holy Family icon is not un-Orthodox, meaning there is nothing in our teaching which prevents the icon from existing. Yes, it is highly influenced by Catholicism, but there is nothing uncanonical/heretical/etc about it. I would much rather see someone venerating a Holy Family icon than an icon of the old man with the star of David in his halo.

Thank you very much for your reply! I really appreciate it!

I've actually been wanting a Holy Family icon (I think even Fr. Thomas Hopko recommended it on AFR before this last Christmas) and saw one here in Greece but I wanted to be careful before purchasing it.

Interestingly, I also saw the famous/infamous icon of the Church as the ship, which I know is a common image, but it was the famous/infamous one which has the Pope, Martin Luther, and others outside of the boat trying to destroy it.

Which brings up another question (sorry for all these questions), I was at Meteora and saw many "icons"/paintings (they weren't in the Churches though, but in common areas) of the Monks and Priests fighting against the Turks. For one this shocked me because Monks/Priests shouldn't ever fight like this, and for two because of the display of not just violence, but firearms in icons.
Is it really considered Orthodox to portray someone with a firearm? I suppose it's just today's swords, but I don't normally see this.

(as a disclaimer, these images at Meteora may have simply been paintings in an iconographic style rather than icons themselves)

 

[Michael G]

Thank you very much for your reply! I really appreciate it!

I've actually been wanting a Holy Family icon (I think even Fr. Thomas Hopko recommended it on AFR before this last Christmas) and saw one here in Greece but I wanted to be careful before purchasing it.

Interestingly, I also saw the famous/infamous icon of the Church as the ship, which I know is a common image, but it was the famous/infamous one which has the Pope, Martin Luther, and others outside of the boat trying to destroy it.

Which brings up another question (sorry for all these questions), I was at Meteora and saw many "icons"/paintings (they weren't in the Churches though, but in common areas) of the Monks and Priests fighting against the Turks. For one this shocked me because Monks/Priests shouldn't ever fight like this, and for two because of the display of not just violence, but firearms in icons.
Is it really considered Orthodox to portray someone with a firearm? I suppose it's just today's swords, but I don't normally see this.

(as a disclaimer, these images at Meteora may have simply been paintings in an iconographic style rather than icons themselves)

My former parish priest has that icon, but updated to have the Pope with Benedict's face on him. I have very mixed feelings on that icon.

The monks and priests fighting painting does not shock me because are also paintings (they are not icons) of famous battles in Russian history. I don't see how these paintings serve the uphold the church or its teaching. The only firearm I have ever seen in an icon was Hitler with a pistol aimed at the ship in the previously mentioned Ship icon.

 

[88Devin07]

How about this icon:
Orthodox Icon of The Lament of Rachel

I personally like it, but I haven't seen it anywhere else. I was in the Church of Savior in Chora which is in Constantinople, and it has a lot of icons depicting the massacre of the innocents, but I didn't see one of Rachel's Lamentation.

 

[Michael G]

That is a perfectly Orthodox icon. Just because an icon is not common or even rare, that has little to do with it's canonicity. The Lament of Rachel is often used by pro-life groups.

 

[Faithful Skeptic]

The Greek Orthodox Cathedral of Chicago, which is also where I was baptized, is Holy Assumption. It has been renovated and the new dome appears to depict Godhead, as He has completely white hair and His halo is triangular. It has always been my understanding that depicting Godhead is non-canonical, though I have at least one other icon depicting Him. Is this non-canonical? Every time I see it, it kind of irks me, not only because I think its non-canonical, but also because I'm used to (always) seeing the Pantokrator gazing down on me from the dome.

 

[Michael G]

The Greek Orthodox Cathedral of Chicago, which is also where I was baptized, is Holy Assumption. It has been renovated and the new dome appears to depict Godhead, as He has completely white hair and His halo is triangular. It has always been my understanding that depicting Godhead is non-canonical, though I have at least one other icon depicting Him. Is this non-canonical? Every time I see it, it kind of irks me, not only because I think its non-canonical, but also because I'm used to (always) seeing the Pantokrator gazing down on me from the dome.

The icon you saw was not "The Ancient of Days." The Ancient of Days (Christ) is always shown with a cross in his halo. Do not let anyone tell you anything else. Christ always gets the cross in the halo. God the Father gets either a star of David or a triangle when people decide to go against canon and paint him. Not only is it non-Canonical to paint God the Father, per the writings of both St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore Studite, but it is also borderline heretical. If you want to read a real good book on the subject, I highly recommend Fr. Stephane Bigham's book "The Image of God the Father in Orthodox Iconography and Other Studies."

 

[gzt]

The Greek Orthodox Cathedral of Chicago, which is also where I was baptized, is Holy Assumption. It has been renovated and the new dome appears to depict Godhead, as He has completely white hair and His halo is triangular. It has always been my understanding that depicting Godhead is non-canonical, though I have at least one other icon depicting Him. Is this non-canonical? Every time I see it, it kind of irks me, not only because I think its non-canonical, but also because I'm used to (always) seeing the Pantokrator gazing down on me from the dome.

Assumption is not the cathedral in Chicago, Annunciation is the cathedral! Assumption is a very nice church though, the last time I was there was the consecration of some bishop, I forget who...

 

[Faithful Skeptic]

The icon you saw was not "The Ancient of Days." The Ancient of Days (Christ) is always shown with a cross in his halo. Do not let anyone tell you anything else. Christ always gets the cross in the halo. God the Father gets either a star of David or a triangle when people decide to go against canon and paint him. Not only is it non-Canonical to paint God the Father, per the writings of both St. John of Damascus and St. Theodore Studite, but it is also borderline heretical. If you want to read a real good book on the subject, I highly recommend Fr. Stephane Bigham's book "The Image of God the Father in Orthodox Iconography and Other Studies."

Thanks for the answer. I'm hoping that it is "The Ancient of Days" and that I'm just projecting the triangle on, but I can't really be sure. "The Ancient of Days" would probably be odd to put in a dome, though, right?

Assumption is not the cathedral in Chicago, Annunciation is the cathedral!

I don't really understand what you're saying. Are you saying that it's the cathedral for the metropolis or that it's "the cathedral" of the country?

Assumption is a very nice church though, the last time I was there was the consecration of some bishop, I forget who...

Yeah, aside from the possible heresy, it is a beautiful choice and I'd love to go there more often, but their depiction of the godhead on the dome is a bit discomforting to me. Their protopsalti comes and eats at my dad's restaurant (I know, how stereotypical). He's a great guy and is a great chanter.

 

[Michael G]

Thanks for the answer. I'm hoping that it is "The Ancient of Days" and that I'm just projecting the triangle on, but I can't really be sure. "The Ancient of Days" would probably be odd to put in a dome, though, right?


I don't really understand what you're saying. Are you saying that it's the cathedral for the metropolis or that it's "the cathedral" of the country?


Yeah, aside from the possible heresy, it is a beautiful choice and I'd love to go there more often, but their depiction of the godhead on the dome is a bit discomforting to me. Their protopsalti comes and eats at my dad's restaurant (I know, how stereotypical). He's a great guy and is a great chanter.

St. Tikhon's has it in their dome (if I remember correctly, it was 1997 when I was there). When I asked the monk what it was, he said it was the Ancient of Days. However, my non-Orthodox teacher pointed out the star of David in his halo and the slavonic which said "the Lord of Sabbaoth." Thus the icon is God the Father, not the Ancient of Days.

As un-canonical as it is, nothing surprises me any more.

 

[gzt]

Annunciation (downtown on La Salle) is the cathedral for the Greeks, not Assumption (on Central). Assumption is a nice, big church, but it's not a cathedral.

 

[Megaloskhemos]

I found this image hiding among others in one of my picture folders on my computer. I'm not sure that it is an icon, but it reminded me of one stylistically.

Here is a download link for a higher-res version:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B2...ZGM4ZC00Mjc0LTg0NjEtYzA4M2RiYWZmY2Y1&hl=en_US


Any ideas as to what this could be?

 

[88Devin07]

Just a question...

Our church has been thinking about building a new church. However it won't happen for probably another 15 years or more. But I was wondering if it is common for churches to have the inside entirely painted immediately?

Most churches I've seen that are new don't always have all their icons painted and have to slowly add them over time. But I was curious as to if it is feasible to have iconographers paint the entirety of a church after its construction is complete? I know it would cost a lot if they had to be on site. But since most modern construction involves gypsum sheathing (aka "drywall"), I know many iconographers are painting off-site and attaching their paintings to the walls. (I would assume this would also allow painting to occur while the building is under construction, not just after)

Are there any American iconographers that could do this? Could an entire church be painted for under $100,000? (i'm talking about a 3,000 square foot church with wall/ceiling surface area of about 7,000-9,000 square feet)

 

[Silentchapel]

I found this image hiding among others in one of my picture folders on my computer. I'm not sure that it is an icon, but it reminded me of one stylistically.

Here is a download link for a higher-res version:

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B2...ZGM4ZC00Mjc0LTg0NjEtYzA4M2RiYWZmY2Y1&hl=en_US


Any ideas as to what this could be?

And God rested from his works on the seventh day.
Though it is a composite icon - the seraph on the right is actually Christ.
The bottom is probably the naming of animals aaaaaand something else I'm not sure of.

 

[Incariol]

Just curious, what do iconographers do when someone wants an icon written of a very obscure saint, where no other known examples of that saint are known to exist?

Like say, St. Evangelius of Alexandria, or St. Linus, St. Caius or St. Saturianus?

 

[ikonographics]

You pray and paint! Ususally you will know if the saint was a martyr or ascetic etc so you know the basic form of the saint and the rest is up to the imagination. I had such a case once when I had to paint St Evplos.

 

[GeorgeS7]

@88Devin07

Are there any American iconographers that could do this? Could an entire church be painted for under $100,000? (i'm talking about a 3,000 square foot church with wall/ceiling surface area of about 7,000-9,000 square feet)

I am an American iconographer but I can't answer your question without knowing more details about the interior, how many images, ornaments and other decorative elements you are planning to have.
9,000 sq ft for $100,000 is ~ $11 per sq ft
If you'll search for: "cost of painting wall per sq ft"
you will find several answers from pro painters like this one, for example:
"2 coats on everything would be $1.32/sq ft. This is where there is none to minimal prep work." or "I know Tallahassee interior paint per sq ft is around $1.25-1.75 and depending on the neighborhood can get up to $3.00."
These estimates are for painting walls with just 1 color.
So, I would suggest to divide you project into 3 parts: icons on the boards, icons on the walls and ornaments and provide more details for each part.