Question regarding the 4 beasts in Daniel, end times and Jesus' return

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Hello all,
For a number of reasons I am starting to look at prophecy in the Scriptures again. I have always had a question regarding the 4 beasts in Daniel. E.g. Daniel chapters 2 and 7. The 4 kingdoms, Assyria, Medes/Persia, Greece and Rome. We have had other kingdoms since then. Ones that exercised dominion over large parts of the world. E.g., Great Britain. Islamic rule after the Roman Empire, the Spanish, Portuguese. What I was taught is that Jesus is to return in the time of the 4th beast. Yet, as noted, we have had other kingdoms since the Roman Empire. Anyone ever had this question and anyone with insight into this?
Thank you. God bless.

 

[mkgal1]

What I was taught is that Jesus is to return in

What words are being interpreted as Jesus "returning"? Because Daniel lived about 600 years before Jesus was even born.

Adam Maarschalk wrote his thesis on eschatology.....and, I believe, has an excellent study written out on Daniel. Here is the link:
Daniel 7: The Fourth Beast, 10 Horns, Three Horns, and a Little Horn

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Thank you your response.

Regarding Jesus' return and the establishment of His Kingdom:

Daniel 7:13, 14
Daniel 2:44,45

Regarding the link you suggested, the Roman Empire appears to have met the requirement for Daniel 7:23

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces

In that, it subdued the known world at that time.

But, Israel did not meet this prophecy so, to suggest that it was the 4th beast doesn't fit.

Still, my question remains and another one comes to mind.

After reading through Daniel 7 again it talks of 10 kings and another king. Are these 10 successive kings? Or, are they contemporary and existing together in the time just prior to Jesus' return?

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello all,
For a number of reasons I am starting to look at prophecy in the Scriptures again. I have always had a question regarding the 4 beasts in Daniel. E.g. Daniel chapters 2 and 7. The 4 kingdoms, Assyria, Medes/Persia, Greece and Rome. We have had other kingdoms since then. Ones that exercised dominion over large parts of the world. E.g., Great Britain. Islamic rule after the Roman Empire, the Spanish, Portuguese. What I was taught is that Jesus is to return in the time of the 4th beast. Yet, as noted, we have had other kingdoms since the Roman Empire. Anyone ever had this question and anyone with insight into this?
Thank you. God bless.

Hi malcolmsonjoshua,

Great topic as it pertains to us today. I was taught this many years ago and it has held true as it has unfolded. So in Dan. 7 we read of these beastly kingdoms/Federations and how they come up one at a time and are ruling at the same time. Finally the last kingdom subdues all the others but it judged and done away with. The other three are allowed to continue but not with their authority. The timing is when the Lord will set up His rulership through Israel over the nations.

So we realise that these Beastly Federations are great powers but NOT world rulers as those of Dan. 2 which were Babylon, Medes & Persians, Greece & Rome, (with the final world ruler to come). Those world rulers were successive and not at the same time as we see Dan. 7`s beastly Federations.

So who are those 4 beastly Federations that are great powers of our day?

Have a visitor - will return soon.

 

[mkgal1]

just prior to Jesus' return?

I really need to spend more time only focusing on chapter 7.....but I'm grateful you're isolating the discussion to just chapter 7 and not bringing in other topics as typically happens here.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Hello all,
For a number of reasons I am starting to look at prophecy in the Scriptures again. I have always had a question regarding the 4 beasts in Daniel. E.g. Daniel chapters 2 and 7. The 4 kingdoms, Assyria, Medes/Persia, Greece and Rome. We have had other kingdoms since then. Ones that exercised dominion over large parts of the world. E.g., Great Britain. Islamic rule after the Roman Empire, the Spanish, Portuguese. What I was taught is that Jesus is to return in the time of the 4th beast. Yet, as noted, we have had other kingdoms since the Roman Empire. Anyone ever had this question and anyone with insight into this?
Thank you. God bless.

Welcome Malcolm. I think this is a worthy question, but its unlikely that you will get a unified answer. Most will agree that the 4 beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. However, opinions about the "horns" that grew out of Rome will differ from 3 major eschatological schools.

1. Preterists will say, the horns are people - 10 emperors of the Roman Empire.
   
2. Historicists will say, the horns are European tribes who invaded Rome during the dark ages.
   
3. Futurists will say, a gap exists till now. The horns will arise from 10 modern nations.

There are variations within these schools. I'm #2 btw.

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Thank you for the welcome Christian.

Thank you also for your concise answer and summary of the main views on this understanding of prophecy.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hello all,
For a number of reasons I am starting to look at prophecy in the Scriptures again. I have always had a question regarding the 4 beasts in Daniel. E.g. Daniel chapters 2 and 7. The 4 kingdoms, Assyria, Medes/Persia, Greece and Rome. We have had other kingdoms since then. Ones that exercised dominion over large parts of the world. E.g., Great Britain. Islamic rule after the Roman Empire, the Spanish, Portuguese. What I was taught is that Jesus is to return in the time of the 4th beast. Yet, as noted, we have had other kingdoms since the Roman Empire. Anyone ever had this question and anyone with insight into this?
Thank you. God bless.

Hi malcolmsonjoshua,

I will now continue. So I have been taught, and I believe that the 4 beastly kingdoms/Federations are great powers of our time, for they are in the time when the Lord will set up His rule through Israel over the nations. God has given Daniel the emblems of these great powers, which are easily recognisable today.

1. The Lion with eagle wings. The very first Federation/Empire to arise was the British Empire which ruled over a quarter of the world. It has become the British Commonwealth and known by a `lion emblem.` The eagle`s wings that were plucked off, represent America becoming independent of Britain. America is well known with the eagle as its emblem. These two great powers still work in together today.

2. The Bear. This was the emblem of the Soviet Union, the next great power to arise after WW1. It eventually has become the Russian Federation and known for much blood shed - devour much flesh.

3. The leopard. This was the emblem of Europe in the past. And this group of nations started to form again after WW2. It started with 4 heads/leaders and now has 27 countries in its European Union.

4. The terrifying Federation. This is Islam which will tread down and conquer the other three. It arises at the beginning of the trib, and halfway through 10 kings of Islam join together and support the A/C.

Hope that helps as you study this important subject.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[keras]

Anyone ever had this question and anyone with insight into this?
Thank you. God bless.

The four Kingdoms, as explained on King Neb's statue were ancient Kingdoms, but the final one; of the ten toes remains future.
We see them prophesied and explained in Revelation 17:12

In our situation today, we know there is a push from the UN and other groups, for a One World Govt. This will happen as prophesied. Daniel 7:23-25, which also ties in with the time periods given in Revelation 13:5-8; for the final 3 1/2 years, or 42 months or 1260 days before Jesus Returns.
The OWG will initially be established with ten Governors over ten world regions. These regions have already been decided. Google; Ten world regions.
But we read in Daniel 7 and Rev 17, that their authority will soon be taken by one powerful man. He will be revealed as the Anti-Christ and when Jesus Returns at the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:13-18, He will destroy their army at Armageddon and chain up Satan.

 

[Douggg]

Hello all,
For a number of reasons I am starting to look at prophecy in the Scriptures again. I have always had a question regarding the 4 beasts in Daniel. E.g. Daniel chapters 2 and 7. The 4 kingdoms, Assyria, Medes/Persia, Greece and Rome. We have had other kingdoms since then. Ones that exercised dominion over large parts of the world. E.g., Great Britain. Islamic rule after the Roman Empire, the Spanish, Portuguese. What I was taught is that Jesus is to return in the time of the 4th beast. Yet, as noted, we have had other kingdoms since the Roman Empire. Anyone ever had this question and anyone with insight into this?
Thank you. God bless.

1. Babylonian
2. Medes Persians
3. Greek
4. Roman
......a. Ancient - at Jesus's first coming
......b. Endtimes (the EU) - at Jesus's second coming
..............ten leaders of the EU (not necessarily of 10 countries)
..............the little horn person the overall leader
...................becomes the prince who shall come following Gog/Magog
...................then becomes the King of Israel coming in his own name - Antichrist
...................then becomes the revealed man of sin
...................then becomes the beast - dictator of the EU

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Welcome Malcolm. I think this is a worthy question, but its unlikely that you will get a unified answer. Most will agree that the 4 beasts are Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. However, opinions about the "horns" that grew out of Rome will differ from 3 major eschatological schools.

1. Preterists will say, the horns are people - 10 emperors of the Roman Empire.
   
2. Historicists will say, the horns are European tribes who invaded Rome during the dark ages.
   
3. Futurists will say, a gap exists till now. The horns will arise from 10 modern nations.

There are variations within these schools. I'm #2 btw.

Hi the teachers who started calling the 10 kings the head of 10 nations started largely in the late 70's and early 80's. They saw the EU as the revived Roman empire and also concluded that the US was not in Bible prophecy so they assumed the US would collapse fro within and then Europe would ascend to dominate the world order. Now there is no Bible verse that says the US is not in Bible prophecy and some see the US as Babylon the great city that is destroyed in a single day.

Now the US is in trouble but so is the EU and in fact all nations are facing larger debt burdens. The NWO has mapped the world into 10 economic zones like the EU and since the anitchrist has dominion over all the earth it is very likely that it will be 10 heads of the various sectors the earth is divided into. The description of Babylon that city is that all the merchants weep as no one will be left to buy their luxury goods and they were made rich through trading with her. And since WW2 only one nation has made the merchants around the world wealthy. So if we are near these times that mantle fits the USA and the other clues do as well such as exporting evil and getting the other nations to commit spiritual fornication with her.

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Hi malcolmsonjoshua,

I will now continue. So I have been taught, and I believe that the 4 beastly kingdoms/Federations are great powers of our time, for they are in the time when the Lord will set up His rule through Israel over the nations. God has given Daniel the emblems of these great powers, which are easily recognisable today.

1. The Lion with eagle wings. The very first Federation/Empire to arise was the British Empire which ruled over a quarter of the world. It has become the British Commonwealth and known by a `lion emblem.` The eagle`s wings that were plucked off, represent America becoming independent of Britain. America is well known with the eagle as its emblem. These two great powers still work in together today.

2. The Bear. This was the emblem of the Soviet Union, the next great power to arise after WW1. It eventually has become the Russian Federation and known for much blood shed - devour much flesh.

3. The leopard. This was the emblem of Europe in the past. And this group of nations started to form again after WW2. It started with 4 heads/leaders and now has 27 countries in its European Union.

4. The terrifying Federation. This is Islam which will tread down and conquer the other three. It arises at the beginning of the trib, and halfway through 10 kings of Islam join together and support the A/C.

Hope that helps as you study this important subject.

regards, Marilyn.

Thank you for your comment Marilyn.

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Thank you K., Doug and Brian for sharing your understanding of the end time prophetic framework.
I will continue to pray about this.
May God bless you in your relationship with Him. In Jesus' name.

 

[Clare73]

Thank you your response.

Regarding Jesus' return and the establishment of His Kingdom:

Daniel 7:13, 14
Daniel 2:44,45

Regarding the link you suggested, the Roman Empire appears to have met the requirement for Daniel 7:23

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces
In that, it subdued the known world at that time.
But, Israel did not meet this prophecy so, to suggest that it was the 4th beast doesn't fit.

Still, my question remains and another one comes to mind.

After reading through Daniel 7 again it talks of 10 kings and another king. Are these 10 successive kings? Or, are they contemporary and existing together in the time just prior to Jesus' return?

The Messianic kingdom is "in the time of those kings" (Daniel 2:44); i.e., the Roman empire (Daniel 2:40-41), which conquered
the Greek empire (Daniel 2:39, Daniel 8:21).

The Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming Of Christ (Matthew 12:28),
which never ends, but endures forever (Daniel 2:44)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Thank you your response.

Regarding Jesus' return and the establishment of His Kingdom:

Daniel 7:13, 14
Daniel 2:44,45

Daniel 7:13-14 is about the ascension of Christ to heaven, not His return.

Compare Daniel 7:13-14 to Ephesians 1:19-22 and you should see that they are referring to the same event.

Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Notice in Daniel 7:13 that it talks about Jesus approaching the Ancient of Days, which refers to the Father. So, this is not describing Jesus descending from heaven, this is describing Jesus being in heaven in the Father's presence. And notice in the Ephesians 1 passage that when Jesus was set at the right hand of the Father He then had authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named". That matches up with what it says in Daniel 7:14 about Him being "given authority, glory and sovereign power".

Christ Himself said that all authority/power was given to Him in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). So, He has been the King and reigning over His kingdom a long time already. It's a kingdom that does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Thank you Clare and Spiritual Jew for your comments.

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

Daniel 7:13-14 is about the ascension of Christ to heaven, not His return.

Compare Daniel 7:13-14 to Ephesians 1:19-22 and you should see that they are referring to the same event.

Thank you for your comment.

Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Notice in Daniel 7:13 that it talks about Jesus approaching the Ancient of Days, which refers to the Father. So, this is not describing Jesus descending from heaven, this is describing Jesus being in heaven in the Father's presence. And notice in the Ephesians 1 passage that when Jesus was set at the right hand of the Father He then had authority "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named". That matches up with what it says in Daniel 7:14 about Him being "given authority, glory and sovereign power".

Christ Himself said that all authority/power was given to Him in heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). So, He has been the King and reigning over His kingdom a long time already. It's a kingdom that does not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36).

 

[malcolmsonjoshua]

The Messianic kingdom is "in the time of those kings" (Daniel 2:44); i.e., the Roman empire (Daniel 2:40-41), which conquered
the Greek empire (Daniel 2:39, Daniel 8:21).

The Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming Of Christ (Matthew 12:28),
which never ends, but endures forever (Daniel 2:44)

Thank you for your comment.

 

[Kenneth Heck]

Here is a completely different interpretation of the great image and four beasts. Identifying Rome as the fourth beast presents insuperable problems.

 

[Biblewriter]

Hi the teachers who started calling the 10 kings the head of 10 nations started largely in the late 70's and early 80's. They saw the EU as the revived Roman empire and also concluded that the US was not in Bible prophecy so they assumed the US would collapse fro within and then Europe would ascend to dominate the world order. Now there is no Bible verse that says the US is not in Bible prophecy and some see the US as Babylon the great city that is destroyed in a single day.

Now the US is in trouble but so is the EU and in fact all nations are facing larger debt burdens. The NWO has mapped the world into 10 economic zones like the EU and since the anitchrist has dominion over all the earth it is very likely that it will be 10 heads of the various sectors the earth is divided into. The description of Babylon that city is that all the merchants weep as no one will be left to buy their luxury goods and they were made rich through trading with her. And since WW2 only one nation has made the merchants around the world wealthy. So if we are near these times that mantle fits the USA and the other clues do as well such as exporting evil and getting the other nations to commit spiritual fornication with her.

Actually, THAT teaching began well before the year 200, as it is clearly taught in the last twelve chapters of book five of the very famous work by Irnaeus, called "Against Heresies," which is thought to have been published between the years 186 and 188 AD.