Question for SDA

[Aibrean]

What disagreements could an SDA person have with a Lutheran/someone that was born into SDA but decided to go to a Lutheran church?

Also...I don't understand the reasoning behind the whole unbelievers just stop existing thing. Based on what I've read, SDA believes that unbelievers just die and don't undergo eternal torment in hell.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I've read, SDA believes that unbelievers just die and don't undergo eternal torment in hell.

The idea of eternal torment in hell is based upon a couple of problematic theories. First it he theory of the immortality of the soul. This is actually not taught in the Bible, in fact it mentions only God as being immortal. It is this view that there is an immortal soul that makes a need for hell to be eternal torment. In other words contrary to the Bible's explaination that man dies the immortal soul holds that man cannot die so God must place these immortal souls some place.

The second part of the theory based upon an assumption is that God's love is so strange that hell can be seen as compatible with a God of Love. this is one that is very hard to comprehend. God holds these souls as condemned without hope of salvation and instead of letting them die He continues their lives so that they can be in some kind of soul torture in hell. Life as the Bible indicates is a gift from God so to continue eternally these souls have to recieve whatever life a soul has from God so that God can inflict torture on them forever.

Now if you read the articles against annilationism you can read their arguments and frankly they don't make a lot of sense. This is from one of the articles in favor of eternal hell:

Another change in the theological system of annihilationism relates to the doctrine of sin. Annihilationists boldly teach that human sin is not wicked enough to be punished eternally. Sin against an infinite God, they say, does not justify infinite penalty. Pinnock explains:
Anselm tried to argue that our sins are worthy of an infinite punishment because they are committed against an infinite majesty. This may have worked in the Middle Ages, but it will not work as an argument today. We do not accept inequality in judgments on the basis of the honor of the victim, as if stealing from a doctor is worse than stealing from a beggar. The fact that we have sinned against an infinite God does not justify an infinite penalty

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell3.html


This idea is very prevalent in the Chrisitan church sin against God deserves infinite punishment. This fits the middle ages concept where God was redefined from Love to to a God of punishment who had to have His justice satisfied.

Here is an article that does not appear too long but presents the salient points.

Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell. In coming to a conclusion, therefore, one must take this to heart and study all of God's Word to find which model fits best with the overall thrust of Scripture. From my study of the Bible, it seems to say much more about the death of the wicked than about their torture. Numerous verses use the terminology of life and immortality only when depicting Heaven while reserving words such as death, perishing, and destruction to describe Hell. Furthermore, there is not even one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the supposed "immortality of the soul" doctrine so prevalent in most Christian theology. Instead, it is made very clear that only God has eternal life, and He bestows immortality only to those whom He chooses—not to everyone. In reading the Bible for its plain meaning, there is no reason to feel obligated to believe that human beings will be kept alive in a never-ending, torturous Hell.
Furthermore, the Bible gives a very clear picture about the nature and character of God the Father and of His Son Jesus Christ. God is love. All His ways are good. He is more loving than any human being could ever hope to be. Everything in the Bible corroborates this. If on the other hand the doctrine of unending, conscious pain for the wicked is added to the message of God, He can no longer be considered loving in any practical sense. This view stands in absolute conflict with the loving character of the Almighty God as revealed in the Bible, and the two cannot co-exist.
There is also very little if any corroboration for the belief that human beings might deserve such a punishment. For years of Christian history, great theologians have worked out only meager rationalizations that don't stand up to scrutiny. Similarly, the question of the purpose for such punishment is completely avoided in these arguments. There is no valid reason for a loving God to subject people to torture without end when no more good could possibly come of it.
Finally, it is my opinion that the belief in eternal punishment is a serious detriment to the entire message of salvation. It turns the "Good News" into bad news. Even when people turn to Jesus, it is not as much to embrace His loving gift as to avoid what they believe is the only other alternative. This significantly alters the way many view the Almighty God and causes countless others to cast doubt on the reliability of the Gospel.
The eternal torment model of Hell creates countless problems when set against the clear teaching of God's character. Neither does it stand up to scrutiny in systematic theology. Lastly, and most importantly, the overall credo of scripture plainly teaches against it while frequently reiterating the vocabulary of death for the unrighteous. Keeping all of these things in mind, it seems overwhelmingly evident to me that the only consistent way to interpret God's Word on this subject is to believe in the ultimate annihilation of unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.

http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

 

[Aibrean]

I should probably specify that I'm not an SDA (and certainly don't believe in all of their teachings)...I was raised Brethren, switched to a non-denomination when I was in middle school, and now I attend a Lutheran church.

This is more for wondering why my fiance's SDA mom disapproves of him attending a Lutheran church. I am not in need of knowing what the Bible says regarding such thing...I'm just trying to figure out the SDA reasoning behind their beliefs...whether they are interpreting the Bible differently or using someone else's theology.

 

[OntheDL]

I should probably specify that I'm not an SDA (and certainly don't believe in all of their teachings)...I was raised Brethren, switched to a non-denomination when I was in middle school, and now I attend a Lutheran church.

This is more for wondering why my fiance's SDA mom disapproves of him attending a Lutheran church. I am not in need of knowing what the Bible says regarding such thing...I'm just trying to figure out the SDA reasoning behind their beliefs...whether they are interpreting the Bible differently or using someone else's theology.

SDAs believe the biblical day of worship is the 7th day sabbath (saturday). There is no scriptural proof that the 7th day Sabbath was changed to 1st day (sunday).

Lutheran doctrines agree with it. However the Lutheran church does not practice it.

"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments ...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also." ---Martin Luther, Spiritual Antichrist, pages 71, 72

"The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the (Catholic) Church." ---Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith.

"They (the Catholics) allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." ---Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, Article 28 par. 9.

"But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel. In other words, they insist that Sunday is the divinely appointed New Testament Sabbath, and so they endeavor to enforce the Sabbatical observance of Sunday by so-called blue laws... These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect." ---John T. Mueller, Sabbath or Sunday?, Pages 15, 16.

There is your answer.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I am not in need of knowing what the Bible says regarding such thing...I'm just trying to figure out the SDA reasoning behind their beliefs...whether they are interpreting the Bible differently or using someone else's theology.

To me the bolded part above is a telling statement. Do you in fact want to know the truth concerning this in the Bible or not? It really sounds as if you don't. If you are not interested in the real truth of what the Bible says then coming here to question us is an act of futility. The only way we can answer your questions and do it in a proper way is to use the Bible to do that. The word of God is our only authority.

Please read what has been said about eternal punishment and if you don't agree that is fine but you need to have a Biblical support for why you don't agree with it. After using the entire Bible and what it says concerning this a logical mind will come to the conclusion that hell-fire cannot burn for eternity. It's the punishment that is eternal not the punishment.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Aibrean]

If you understand what I wrote...it's I know what the Bible says...I'm wondering how SDA comes with their interpretation.

Here are some of my supporting scriptures:

Luke 16:22-28
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to (T)Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In (U)Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, '(V)Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in (W)this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that (X)during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may (Y)warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Ecclesiastes 3:11He has (K)made everything [a]appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man (L)will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for (CA)the trumpet will sound, and (CB)the dead will be raised imperishable, and (CC)we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on (CD)the imperishable, and this (CE)mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "(CF)DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Matthew 25:33-46

33and He will put the sheep (AC)on His right, and the goats (AD)on the left.
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, (AE)inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.
35'For (AG)I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; (AH)I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36(AI)naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you (AJ)visited Me; (AK)I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40"(AL)The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, (AM)to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
41"Then He will also say to those on His left, '(AN)Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the (AO)eternal fire which has been prepared for (AP)the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46"These will go away into (AQ)eternal punishment, but the righteous into (AR)eternal life."


"It's the punishment that is eternal not the punishment"

??

But anyway...I don't understand why she would be so hostile because he went to the non-denominational church with me for a couple of years and didn't say anything.

 

[OntheDL]

If you understand what I wrote...it's I know what the Bible says...I'm wondering how SDA comes with their interpretation.

Here are some of my supporting scriptures:

Luke 16:22-28
22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to (T)Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In (U)Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, '(V)Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in (W)this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that (X)during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--
28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may (Y)warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Parables are not meant to be taken literally and if you continue to read the whole story in Luke 16 begining to end, it isn't about hell and eternal torment.

The richman was a symbol of Israel who kept the Word of God (bread) to themselves. Lazarus was a symbol of the non-jew who were hunger after the Word (grumps).

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

But anyway...I don't understand why she would be so hostile because he went to the non-denominational church with me for a couple of years and didn't say anything.

Aside from the hell question which I think you are certain that that is the way God punishes, your statement is above is completely outside of any of our ability of answering. You might want to ask her.

 

[tall73]

Hello

On the hell question the rules do not really allow us to discuss it here, so I will just post a link to something that will explain our view.

This is something I drew up that I think will answer your questions. It addresses all the texts I am aware of on the hell question.



http://ankite.homestead.com/files/immortality.pdf\

 

[Aibrean]

Thanks for that.

I had someone address my other question via PM so thanks all.

 

[reddogs]

What disagreements could an SDA person have with a Lutheran/someone that was born into SDA but decided to go to a Lutheran church?

Also...I don't understand the reasoning behind the whole unbelievers just stop existing thing. Based on what I've read, SDA believes that unbelievers just die and don't undergo eternal torment in hell.

Good Question