Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Bible Highlighter]

Yeah but my point was that we humans forgive without a blood sacrifice, God doesn’t. Therefore if we are to question the scriptures based on human sentiment then we can arrive at all sorts of heresies and might as well throw out the scriptures all together.

There is always going to be wrong human sentiment. But that does undo basic morality that God has given to men (with them being held accountable to Him for adhering to that goodness). Unless someone’s moral compass is shot, I cannot see any good person not recognizing the self sacrifice by one that saves others. But the cross is not a violation of morality like ECT clearly is. I used to believe in ECT and it was a belief I held that I could never explain in regards to how it was good or it was considered fair justice. We do not see any example of it’s fairness in Scripture even. ECT Christians tell me that when you sin against God, you sin against him eternally and that is why the punishment is eternal. This sounds totally made up. There is not one verse that even teaches this.

Jesus accepted the real world example of the Canaanite woman. She said even the dogs can eat from the crumbs of the table. Yet, most everyone here would not be that persistent with Jesus because they would think His words were final and absolute and His coming was for the Jews and not the Gentiles (dogs).

My point here is that she was able to recognize a truth in the real world to help further elaborate a spiritual truth (that many here would dismiss). This means that we can make real world examples to test the truth of something (Especially to see if it is moral or good).

If this is not the case, then an axe murderer can justify his murder by twisting the Scriptures. The Bible has to be read also with the heart. This is not wrong worldly human sentiment, but knowing true right from wrong and being able to demonstrate that goodnesss. ECT cannot be demonstrated by way of real world example as being good or just. But all of God’s good ways and judgments should be able to be explained as being good. Roasting people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes is not just. I believe the Bible does have verses in the Bible that sound like ECT as a test from God. Knowing God and His good ways will lead a person to dig deeper into this issue involving the Scriptures and to keep praying for the truth to be revealed to them by the Spirit. Many Christians will never see what I am talking about involving this topic because their mind and their approach towards God will never allow it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The rich man was not in hell, he was in hades which is the waiting place for the wicked in Sheol. When judgement day comes Hades (or the residents of Hades) will be thrown into the lake of fire in hell. There is ample evidence in the scriptures to support both annihilation and eternal torment. As for me I’m undecided on the subject.

Unlike Traditional Conditional Immortality (that believes the place of hades is a metaphor), I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the beleif that the story of Lazarus and the Richman is a real literal story. Hades is a very real place of torment that will be cast into the Lake of Fire. I agree with Traditional Conditional Immortality on the aspect that the Lake of Fire will either annihilate the wicked right away or it will punish them for a certain amount of time in proportion to their sins and then the fire will erase them from existence.

I was on the fence for about a year on this topic (believing both ECT and Conditional Immortality as a possibility). But Isaiah 34:9-10 really helped me to see the truth of Conditional Immortality. I also discovered that there are verses in the Bible that said something was forever but it did not mean for all eternity. Numbers 15:15 and Philemon 1:15 are two really good examples.

 

[Der Alte]

*** I believe the Bible does have verses in the Bible that sound like ECT as a test from God. Knowing God and His good ways will lead a person to dig deeper into this issue involving the Scriptures and to keep praying for the truth to be revealed to them by the Spirit. Many Christians will never see what I am talking about involving this topic because their mind and their approach towards God will never allow it.

This is exactly how I see those who oppose e.g. the very words of Jesus, Himself in Matthew 25:46. I believe the Bible does have verses in the Bible that sound like UR or Annihilation as a test from God. Knowing God and His good ways will lead a person to dig deeper into this issue involving the Scriptures and to keep praying for the truth to be revealed to them by the Spirit. Many Christians will never see what I am talking about involving this topic because this is what they have been taught and their minds and their approach towards God will never allow it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is always going to be wrong human sentiment. But that does undo basic morality that God has given to men (with them being held accountable to Him for adhering to that goodness). Unless someone’s moral compass is shot, I cannot see any good person not recognizing the self sacrifice by one that saves others. But the cross is not a violation of morality like ECT clearly is. I used to believe in ECT and it was a belief I held that I could never explain in regards to how it was good or it was considered fair justice. We do not see any example of it’s fairness in Scripture even. ECT Christians tell me that when you sin against God, you sin against him eternally and that is why the punishment is eternal. This sounds totally made up. There is not one verse that even teaches this.

Jesus accepted the real world example of the Canaanite woman. She said even the dogs can eat from the crumbs of the table. Yet, most everyone here would not be that persistent with Jesus because they would think His words were final and absolute and His coming was for the Jews and not the Gentiles (dogs).

My point here is that she was able to recognize a truth in the real world to help further elaborate a spiritual truth (that many here would dismiss). This means that we can make real world examples to test the truth of something (Especially to see if it is moral or good).

If this is not the case, then an axe murderer can justify his murder by twisting the Scriptures. The Bible has to be read also with the heart. This is not wrong worldly human sentiment, but knowing true right from wrong and being able to demonstrate that goodnesss. ECT cannot be demonstrated by way of real world example as being good or just. But all of God’s good ways and judgments should be able to be explained as being good. Roasting people for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes is not just. I believe the Bible does have verses in the Bible that sound like ECT as a test from God. Knowing God and His good ways will lead a person to dig deeper into this issue involving the Scriptures and to keep praying for the truth to be revealed to them by the Spirit. Many Christians will never see what I am talking about involving this topic because their mind and their approach towards God will never allow it.

Jesus did not want to sacrifice Himself on the cross, He did it reluctantly because it was The Father’s will and He knew what it meant. Much like a father who has to choose between saving his life or his child’s life. He doesn’t want to die but for the sake of his child, although he’d rather live, he makes the sacrifice to save those he loves. God The Father required the sacrifice in order to extend His forgiveness to us, we don’t know why the sacrifice was necessary and why He couldn’t have just forgiven us just because He wanted to. Apparently there was a reason for it that is unknown to us just like if ECT is true there is most likely a reason for it that is unknown to us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus did not want to sacrifice Himself on the cross, He did it reluctantly because it was The Father’s will and He knew what it meant.

First, I believe Jesus was merely exploring His options to see if there was another way to save mankind. While Jesus was one with the Father, He was limited in knowledge (i.e., His Omniscience was suppressed), that is why we see His will being slightly distinct from the Father’s will in the Garden. It was a matter of knowledge. Jesus had to be like a type of Adam who was limited in knowledge before the Fall.

Second, this would not necessarily mean He was unaware in that He loved sinners enough to die for them, though.
John 15:13 reveals the love Jesus had for His faithful people,

John 15:13

”Greater love hath no man than this,​

that a man lay down his life for his friends.”​

So clearly Jesus was motivated by the love of His people so as to die for them, too.
Clearly He knew of the one laying down His life for His friends is the greatest love.
God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
This was the greatest act of love by God in human history.

God The Father required the sacrifice in order to extend His forgiveness to us, we don’t know why the sacrifice was necessary and why He couldn’t have just forgiven us just because He wanted to. Apparently there was a reason for it that is unknown

I think Scripture does reveal to us why the sacrifice was 100% necessary.
Life for life. Life in the flesh is in the blood.
When a person sins, it incurs a punishment and this punishment is death.
If this was not the case, then the transgressions would not be all that serious or that big of a deal for God to bother to die in our place for our sins. There are laws in our country that if we break them, we know they are very serious. Murder, rape, theft, drinking / driving, etcetera. Why? Because they are deadly and harmful to others. Serious crimes cause for serious punishment. God knows this and so to truly deal with these crimes, He had to provide a way of escape in erasing our sins to start brand new with Him. God just forgiving sin without a payment for sin would merely show that He is not truly dealing with the justice of punishment of those sins properly. The sacrifice was the perfect way of justice to deal with sin to go hand in hand with forgiveness. It shows the weight of the person’s sins committed when Jesus made such a great sacrifice, as well. It shows the love of God (Which is the greatest act of the love of God in human history). So if a person says, can you show me God’s love? I can point them to the cross. But if it was just forgiveness only… where is the great example of God’s love?
It’s why we are to follow in the footsteps of Christ. We are to lay down our own lives for the brethren, too. We are to live a life that is in sacrifice to Christ. Love goes beyond just the affection but it moves a person in their actions to love. This is why we see God did what He did upon the cross. His love compelled Him to go there. He needed to show His love and He needed to show that our sins had a great price that put the Son of God upon the cross. It showed our sins were not small matters to God for Him.

to us just like if ECT is true there is most likely a reason for it that is unknown to us.

This is similar to what I used to say when I used to be ECT, but after coming out of ECT, the spiritual scales fell off my eyes and I could see just how dark and wrong ECT truly is. Again, if something is good, we can explain it and offer real world examples to support it. Of course we do need Scripture to support that belief, too. Good thing Conditional Immortality has MANY verses supporting it. There are only 5 major verses supporting ECT when read at first glance (And can be explained logically by comparing Scripture with Scripture). We have to understand that there are other things in the Bible that sound like it is teaching a particular thing and it is not. For example: Universalist Christians believe Substitutionary Atonement verses are referring to how all men are redeemed and it is only a matter of time before all will be saved in the end (According to them). But this is a distortion of those verses. We know this by comparing Scripture with Scripture and by knowing that evil is punished and good is rewarded.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus did not want to sacrifice Himself on the cross,

I don’t think that is the case. Jesus knew ahead of time that the greatest love was to lay down His life for His friends. Remember, Jesus always did what pleased the Father. So Jesus never stepped out of line once. Jesus did not go against the Father’s plans in telling Him He does not want this. However, exploring other options does not necessarily mean He flat out just hated the idea or completely rejected it.

we don’t know why the sacrifice was necessary and why He couldn’t have just forgiven us just because He wanted to.

Well, I do know. Maybe I don’t express it with the right words.
Check out this short video clip from the Christian movie called, ”Heaven’s War.”
Maybe it will help.

Amazon.com: Heaven's War : Jason Gerhardt, Donny Boaz, Kelly Patton, Joe Estevez, Chloe Clark, Danny Carrales, Danny Carrales, Danny Carrales: Prime Video

Amazon.com: Heaven's War : Jason Gerhardt, Donny Boaz, Kelly Patton, Joe Estevez, Chloe Clark, Danny Carrales, Danny Carrales, Danny Carrales: Prime Video

www.amazon.com

May God bless you, my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The kind of mindset we are dealing with can be found in the following article I ran across the other day. Some of what this person argues in favor of ECT appear to be valid points. Such as the what I have quoted below from that same article. And some of what the author proposes in that article is somewhat disturbing. Below is from that article and the link to it, if you or anyone else cares to read any of it. Apparently though, as to the OP of this thread, that author attempts to address and answer some of those questions as well.

--------------------------

People believe in annihilation because it doesn’t seem nearly so bad as eternity in Hell. The rich man of Luke 16 does not cease to exist when he dies. But will he one day cease to exist? If so, when he begs for relief, wouldn’t we expect Abraham to say, “When your sins are paid for, then you will no longer suffer”? But Abraham offers him no hope for relief.

Hell: Eternal Sovereign Justice Exacted upon Evildoers - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Hell is not pleasant, appealing, or encouraging. But Hell is morally good, because a good God must punish evil.

www.epm.org

The author (Randy Alcorn) says, I quote:

”Hell is an eternal correction of and compensation for evil. ​

It is justice. To fear and dread Hell is understandable, ​

but to argue against Hell is to argue against justice.” ~ Randy Alcorn.​

This is insane. He says Hell (which would be eternal according to the context of his article) is justice and yet he cannot demonstrate exactly how. In other words, if a person says something is justice (fair justice), then they should be able to explain how it is fair and good. It is only logical. To not be able to explain how something is good means it is not good (Which then leads to cognitive dissonance when faced with the truth of Conditional Immortality — see the following picture).

The article also quotes C.S. Lewis (giving us a glimpse in that the author agrees with what he said).

C. S. Lewis said of Hell,

“There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove​

from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power. But it has the​

full support of Scripture and, specially, of Our Lord’s own words;”​

(C.S. Lewis - quoted in Randy Alcorn’s article).​

So the author appears to not even like hell, but he only accepts it because he thinks Scripture teaches it. Yet, in the same chapter he contradicts himself and says it is justice. Again, I think he is only saying this because that is what he believes God’s Word says. But this is a mindless belief that violates even his own conscience. For we can see himself partly agreeing with C.S. Lewis’ words that say,

“There is no doctrine which I would more willingly remove
from Christianity than this, if it lay in my power.”

Granted, C.S. Lewis is not even somebody he should be quoting seeing the man wrote books that encourages magic or witchcraft.
Of course, Randy misinterprets 1 John 1:8 like most Christians, and he takes the sin and still be saved viewpoint.

See:

Grace Means Christians Should and Can Live Differently - Eternal Perspective Ministries

God does not have a type of saving grace that, once given, leaves its recipient unchanged.

www.epm.org

So it is not surprising Randy holds to ECT. OSAS or a sin and still be saved type belief is also a belief that involves one having to violate basic morality or goodness.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The kind of mindset we are dealing with can be found in the following article I ran across the other day. Some of what this person argues in favor of ECT appear to be valid points. Such as the what I have quoted below from that same article. And some of what the author proposes in that article is somewhat disturbing. Below is from that article and the link to it, if you or anyone else cares to read any of it. Apparently though, as to the OP of this thread, that author attempts to address and answer some of those questions as well.

--------------------------

People believe in annihilation because it doesn’t seem nearly so bad as eternity in Hell. The rich man of Luke 16 does not cease to exist when he dies. But will he one day cease to exist? If so, when he begs for relief, wouldn’t we expect Abraham to say, “When your sins are paid for, then you will no longer suffer”? But Abraham offers him no hope for relief.

Hell: Eternal Sovereign Justice Exacted upon Evildoers - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Hell is not pleasant, appealing, or encouraging. But Hell is morally good, because a good God must punish evil.

www.epm.org

Randy also says, I quote:

”If Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection didn’t deliver us from​

a real and eternal Hell, then his work on the cross is less heroic,​

less potent, less consequential, and less deserving of our worship and praise.” ~ Randy Alcorn.​

​

Of course this would be the case if God was unjust by torturing people way beyond the finite amount of crimes that they committed.
But Randy does not realize ECT is false. Of course he is going to see Conditional Immortality as less heroic, less potent, etcetera. I think Randy thinks all Conditional Immortality Christians believe that the wicked will be instantly annihilated quickly in the Lake of Fire and they are gone right away. This may not be the case. There is also Hades (hell or the place of torments) and there are many Conditionalists who believe the Lake of Fire can potentially punish the wicked for a certain amount of time. But of course he just assumes all Conditional Immortality Christians are alike (and this is simply not true).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The kind of mindset we are dealing with can be found in the following article I ran across the other day. Some of what this person argues in favor of ECT appear to be valid points. Such as the what I have quoted below from that same article. And some of what the author proposes in that article is somewhat disturbing. Below is from that article and the link to it, if you or anyone else cares to read any of it. Apparently though, as to the OP of this thread, that author attempts to address and answer some of those questions as well.

--------------------------

People believe in annihilation because it doesn’t seem nearly so bad as eternity in Hell. The rich man of Luke 16 does not cease to exist when he dies. But will he one day cease to exist? If so, when he begs for relief, wouldn’t we expect Abraham to say, “When your sins are paid for, then you will no longer suffer”? But Abraham offers him no hope for relief.

Hell: Eternal Sovereign Justice Exacted upon Evildoers - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries

Hell is not pleasant, appealing, or encouraging. But Hell is morally good, because a good God must punish evil.

www.epm.org

In the article Randy quoted a theologian in defense of ECT.

Theologian William Shedd put it this way:​

“The doctrine of Christ’s vicarious atonement ​

logically stands or falls with that of eternal punishment.”​

​

I don’t see that being the case at all. The doctrine of Christ’s atonement does not rest on fiery torture of human beings for all eternity.
There is not one verse that says so. They made it up. The Atonement is just as valid with Conditional Immortality. In fact, CI is a better fit with Christ‘s atonement because Jesus died for our sins once and He is not continuing to keep sacrificing Himself over and over again to atone for eternal sin (like with ECT).

Randy quotes D.A. Carson as saying,

​

“Hell would be ever-ongoing punishment for ever-ongoing sins.”​

​

But where does the Bible teach this?
Will there be eternal Judgments for the sins they keep committing throughout all eternity?
That makes no sense and it is not biblical. He just made this up.

Just as there is another made up excuse by ECT Christians when they say that the reason why the wicked suffers is because they are sinning against God eternally (Which then warrants eternal punishment). But again, no Bible verse teaches this concept or idea. It’s entirely made up. So we see ECT Christians making stuff up to support the fiction of ECT. Granted, I can see how one can initially believe in it. The Bible does have 5 major verses that sound like ECT at first glance. But when a person is a good Berean and they dig deeper In His Word, they will realize Conditional Immortality is true and ECT is false.

 

[DavidPT]

In the article Randy quoted a theologian in defense of ECT.

Theologian William Shedd put it this way:​

“The doctrine of Christ’s vicarious atonement ​

logically stands or falls with that of eternal punishment.”​

​

I don’t see that being the case at all. The doctrine of Christ’s atonement does not rest on fiery torture of human beings for all eternity.
There is not one verse that says so. They made it up. The Atonement is just as valid with Conditional Immortality. In fact, CI is a better fit with Christ‘s atonement because Jesus died for our sins once and He is not continuing to keep sacrificing Himself over and over again to atone for eternal sin (like with ECT).

Randy quotes D.A. Carson as saying,

​

“Hell would be ever-ongoing punishment for ever-ongoing sins.”​

​

But where does the Bible teach this?
Will there be eternal Judgments for the sins they keep committing throughout all eternity?
That makes no sense and it is not biblical. He just made this up.

Just as there is another made up excuse by ECT Christians when they say that the reason why the wicked suffers is because they are sinning against God eternally (Which then warrants eternal punishment). But again, no Bible verse teaches this concept or idea. It’s entirely made up. So we see ECT Christians making stuff up to support the fiction of ECT. Granted, I can see how one can initially believe in it. The Bible does have 5 major verses that sound like ECT at first glance. But when a person is a good Berean and they dig deeper In His Word, they will realize Conditional Immortality is true and ECT is false.

Is it possible, that in the Father's mind, the fact He allowed Christ to be tortured on the cross, He then feels justified to torture the lost forever without end?

One would still have to get around the fact that only those that have access to the tree of life can live forever.

One would still have to get around the fact that the wages of sin is death, not living forever instead.

One would still have to get around the fact, the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

One would still have to get around the fact that, though man can only kill the body but cannot kill the soul, God can and will kill both body and soul in hell.

Would the Father disregard all of that, or could it be that some of us are misinterpreting all of that, if He simply felt justified in torturing the lost forever since He allowed His Son to be tortured on the cross, thus ECT is true?

 

[Der Alte]

In the article Randy quoted a theologian in defense of ECT.

Theologian William Shedd put it this way:​

“The doctrine of Christ’s vicarious atonement ​

logically stands or falls with that of eternal punishment.”​

I don’t see that being the case at all. The doctrine of Christ’s atonement does not rest on fiery torture of human beings for all eternity.
There is not one verse that says so. They made it up. The Atonement is just as valid with Conditional Immortality. In fact, CI is a better fit with Christ‘s atonement because Jesus died for our sins once and He is not continuing to keep sacrificing Himself over and over again to atone for eternal sin (like with ECT).
Randy quotes D.A. Carson as saying,

“Hell would be ever-ongoing punishment for ever-ongoing sins.”​

But where does the Bible teach this?
Will there be eternal Judgments for the sins they keep committing throughout all eternity?
That makes no sense and it is not biblical. He just made this up.
Just as there is another made up excuse by ECT Christians when they say that the reason why the wicked suffers is because they are sinning against God eternally (Which then warrants eternal punishment). But again, no Bible verse teaches this concept or idea. It’s entirely made up. So we see ECT Christians making stuff up to support the fiction of ECT. Granted, I can see how one can initially believe in it. The Bible does have 5 major verses that sound like ECT at first glance. But when a person is a good Berean and they dig deeper In His Word, they will realize Conditional Immortality is true and ECT is false.

What did the early church fathers [ECF] understand about the punishment the unrepentant unrighteous would experience?
1)•Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"​

2)(Second Clement ibid., 17:7)​

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".​

3)Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]​

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).​

4) Justin Martyr​

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"​

5) (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).​

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).​

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).​

6) The Martyrdom of Polycarp​

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"​

• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).​

6) Mathetes​

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).​

• 7) Athenagoras​

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).​

• 8) Theophilus of Antioch​

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])​

• 9) Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]​

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).​

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).​

• 10) Tertullian​

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"​

• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).​

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).​

• 11) Hippolytus​

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).​

• 12) Minucius Felix​

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).​

• 13) Cyprian of Carthage​

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).​

• 14) Lactantius​

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).​

• 15) Cyril of Jerusalem​

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).​

• 16) Origen De Principiis Book 1 - Ch 1 [a.d. 185-230-254.]
Origen 5. After these points, also, the apostolic teaching is that the soul, having a substance6 and life of its own, shall, after its departure from the world, be rewarded according to its deserts, being destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its actions shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishments, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this:

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Church Fathers: A Door to Rome

A Survey of Young Fundamentalists - Article by David Cloud

www.wayoflife.org

 

[Der Alte]

One would still have to get around the fact that only those that have access to the tree of life can live forever.

You mean God can't give someone eternal life unless they eat from the tree of life?

One would still have to get around the fact that the wages of sin is death, not living forever instead.

Do the words of Paul supersede the words of Jesus, Himself? c.f. Matt 7:21-23.

One would still have to get around the fact, the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

That was said in the context of a son being put to death for the sins of the father or vice versa not the eternal fate of the son or father.

One would still have to get around the fact that, though man can only kill the body but cannot kill the soul, God can and will kill both body and soul in hell.

What God created He could certainly destroy but I am not aware of a single vs. which states that anything/anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
c.f.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

One, the false prophet, is a person, all 3 are in the LOF which is called the 2nd death twice.

Would the Father disregard all of that, or could it be that some of us are misinterpreting all of that, if He simply felt justified in torturing the lost forever since He allowed His Son to be tortured on the cross, thus ECT is true?

We take the words of Jesus, Himself, as true c.f. Matthew 25:46. c.f. Rev 22:11 and Rev 22:15

 

[Phoneman-777]

Scripture makes no mention of what type of punishment or if there are different degrees of punishment awaiting the goats, so we must deduce that the punishment is the same type for all of the goats.

Didn't Jesus say some will be beaten with "many" and "few" stripes?

Didn't He say it would be "more tolerable" in the day of Judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for any city which would refuse to receive the Gospel?

Didn't He say it would be "more tolerable" in the day of Judgment for Sidon and Tyre (Tyre was so wicked, He had Alexander the Great not only toss the ruins left by Nebuchadnezzer into the Med Sea, but also the swept dust of it, as well) than for Chorazin and Bethsaida ?

Didn't Jesus say He would reward everyone "according as his work shall be"?

All these statements clearly indicate there will be degrees of punishment and suffering in the day of Judgment, right or wrong?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You mean God can't give someone eternal life unless they eat from the tree of life?

Yet, we read this towards the end of God’s story involving His people:

Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are they that do his commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

One would still have to get around the fact that the wages of sin is death, not living forever instead.

Do the words of Paul supersede the words of Jesus, Himself? c.f. Matt 7:21-23.

Matthew 7:21-23 in no way supports ECT and neither does it explain away what Paul meant by the wages of sin is death.
Obviously most everybody dies (Whether they are righteous or unrighteous). So when Paul says “the wages of sin is death” he is referring to the Second Death (Which is a place of destruction because the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), and death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14)).

That was said in the context of a son being put to death for the sins of the father or vice versa not the eternal fate of the son or father.

While this is referring to physical death or the first death, it is a mirror reflection of one’s status in the afterlife because it talks about how sin will lead a person to surely die. Sure, a person can repent, but the point here is that sin leads a person not only to physically die, but it will lead them to face the second death (Which is related to the first death in that it causes one to perish). Just as there was a physical temple on the Earth, there is one in Heaven, etcetera.

But this second death can be referred to while one is alive.

1 Timothy 5:6 says,
”But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.”

Meaning, they are spiritually dead and their judgment at that present moment is the second death (Revelation 21:8), where Jesus will destroy the soul (Matthew 10:28).

What God created He could certainly destroy but I am not aware of a single vs. which states that anything/anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Matthew 10:28.
Revelation 20:14, and 1 Corinthians 15:26.

c.f.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

But Revelation 20:10 that uses the words ”day” “night” and “for ever and ever” in Isaiah 34:10 gives us the code key or meaning behind these same words used in Revelation 20:10. Isaiah is referring to a city is on fire night and day and a smoke that will go up for ever. However, the city is not going to burn and put off smoke for all eternity because Jesus said Heaven and Earth shall pass away (Matthew 24:35).

In Revelation 19:1-3 (Just one chapter away from Revelation 20:10) talks about how the city of Mystery Babylon and her smoke will go up, “for ever, and ever.” Revelation 19:1-3 sets the stage of meaning for the words used in Revelation 20:10. Again, you cannot have a city going up in smoke for all eternity if the Earth will pass away according to Jesus words in Matthew 24:35 (cf. Revelation 21:1). So this lets us know that the words in Revelation 20:10 “night” “day” and “for ever and ever” are not to be read as meaning ”for all eternity.” We compare Scripture with Scripture to get the meaning or definition of those words and it cannot mean “for all eternity.”

One, the false prophet, is a person, all 3 are in the LOF which is called the 2nd death twice.

We read the following in Revelation 13 about the second beast who causes the people to worship the first beast by working great miracles.

Revelation 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”

Then three chapters away, we read the following in Revelation 16.

Revelation 16:13
”And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.“.

So we see here that the second beast is replaced with the false prophet. For where did the second beast go?
Clearly Revelation 13:11 describes this beast coming up out of the Earth.
This is clearly a demon, and not a human.

We take the words of Jesus, Himself, as true c.f. Matthew 25:46.

Matthew 25:46 compares “everlasting punishment“ with “life eternal.” At first glance, this sounds like a slam dunk for the ECT camp, but again, we have to compare Scripture with Scripture to get the entire truth here. We know that there are good verses for Conditional Immortality (Revelation 21:8 compared with Revelation 20:14, and 1 Corinthians 15:26, and there is Matthew 10:28, Romans 6:23, etcetera). We also know that the words like “everlasting” used elsewhere in the Bible can be used metaphorically or used in context to something that is temporary.

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6).
Other translations say the mountains were “shattered“ (NASB), or “crushed to pieces” (DRB).
So these mountains were not “everlasting” in the sense that it means “for all eternity.”
This has to be the case because Heaven and Earth will pass away, too (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1).

We see also in Hebrews 9:15 about how faithful believers will have an “eternal inheritance.”
But that does not mean that they will go through a perpetual unending daily state of receiving their inheritance for all eternity.
What Hebrews 9:15 is saying is that they receive their inheritance once from God, and that one time event has everlasting consequences. This is the same concept that is going on in Mathew 25:46. It is a one-time punishment of being destroyed in the Lake of Fire that has everlasting consequences.

c.f. Rev 22:11

Most Christians (even in the ECT camp) will not use Revelation 22:11 as saying that this is strictly chronological (as if it was speaking during the times of the New Earth). It is clearly talking in the present tense to all people in all points in time. Verse 10 says, “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.” (Revelation 22:10). This clearly sets the stage and or context for verse 11.

and Rev 22:15

Again, it’s not strictly chronological in that it is talking about the sequence of events of the New Earth.

In context it says:

Revelation 22:12-15
12 “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

Obviously verse 12 is not talking about how Jesus will come quickly on the New Earth. So this lets us know that the rest of the following words have changed. It is an admonishment about how those who keep God’s commandments have right to the tree of life and outside are sinners. It does not mean that this is speaking in a strict chronological sequence of events from before. The book of Revelation is not written in chronological order.

For example:
Revelation 6-10 appears to be sequential and it begins Daniel’s 70th Week.
Revelation 11 appears to rewind back in time in the chronology at the final last 42 months (picking back up from sometime after the Middle of the Tribulation), and it ends with Jesus Christ coming in Revelation 19. Revelation 20-22 are the next epochs and important events in time (After the Tribulation and Christ’s return).

We take the words of Jesus, Himself, as true c.f. Matthew 25:46. c.f. Rev 22:11 and Rev 22:15

We take the words of Jesus, Himself, as true cf. Matthew 10:28 (destroy both soul and body), Matthew 3:12 (burn up the chaff), John 6:51 (if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever).

Side Note 1.

As for your implication that Jesus is speaking in Revelation 22:11:
Well, I do not see it as Jesus speaking in Revelation 22:11.
Revelation 22:9-11 is the angel speaking, and not Jesus.
Revelation 22:12 switches to Jesus speaking (and continues on to verse 16).

Side Note 2:

You said, c.f.

I believe the proper usage is cf.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Greek Philosophers Believed in the Immortality of the Soul:

It is clear that PLATO and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible:

”"The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponet."The Jewish Encyclopedia(www.jewishencyclopedia.com, searched "immortality").”​

​

"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality" (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)​

​

"...immortality of the soul, as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2).​

Conclusion: Except for the Epicureans, Greek philosophers taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.

Source:

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

 

[Der Alte]

Yet, we read this towards the end of God’s story involving His people:
Revelation 22:14
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

How does this address my comment that the son is not punished for the father's sins and vice versa?

Matthew 7:21-23 in no way supports ECT and neither does it explain away what Paul meant by the wages of sin is death.
Obviously most everybody dies (Whether they are righteous or unrighteous). So when Paul says “the wages of sin is death” he is referring to the Second Death (Which is a place of destruction because the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), and death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14)).

And when was Paul told about the second death, which is not mentioned until Rev. when John was on the isle of Patmos?

But Revelation 20:10 that uses the words ”day” “night” and “for ever and ever” in Isaiah 34:10 gives us the code key or meaning behind these same words used in Revelation 20:10. Isaiah is referring to a city is on fire night and day and a smoke that will go up for ever. However, the city is not going to burn and put off smoke for all eternity because Jesus said Heaven and Earth shall pass away (Matthew 24:35)

When did the seven cities in Asia get copies of the books of Isaiah and Daniel?

.
In Revelation 19:1-3 (Just one chapter away from Revelation 20:10) talks about how the city of Mystery Babylon and her smoke will go up, “for ever, and ever.” Revelation 19:1-3 sets the stage of meaning for the words used in Revelation 20:10. Again, you cannot have a city going up in smoke for all eternity if the Earth will pass away according to Jesus words in Matthew 24:35 (cf. Revelation 21:1). So this lets us know that the words in Revelation 20:10 “night” “day” and “for ever and ever” are not to be read as meaning ”for all eternity.” We compare Scripture with Scripture to get the meaning or definition of those words and it cannot mean “for all eternity.”

That the word. "eternal" is used figuratively for something that is not/could not be eternal does NOT change the inherent meaning. So terms such as "eternal punishment" cannot be arbitrarily dismissed in every case.

We read the following in Revelation 13 about the second beast who causes the people to worship the first beast by working great miracles.
Revelation 13:11-15
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”
Then three chapters away, we read the following in Revelation 16.
Revelation 16:13
”And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.“.
So we see here that the second beast is replaced with the false prophet. For where did the second beast go?
Clearly Revelation 13:11 describes this beast coming up out of the Earth.
This is clearly a demon, and not a human. Sure, there may be a human host maybe, but it ultimately a demon that has taken full possession if that is the case.

Does NOT refute the fact that the false prophet must have been a person. People would not knowingly listen to a demon posing as a prophet.

Matthew 25:46 compares “everlasting punishment“ with “life eternal.” At first glance, this sounds like a slam dunk for the ECT camp, but again, we have to compare Scripture with Scripture to get the entire truth here. We know that there are good verses for Conditional Immortality (Revelation 21:8 compared with Revelation 20:14, and 1 Corinthians 15:26, and there is Matthew 10:28, Romans 6:23, etcetera). We also know that the words like “everlasting” used elsewhere in the Bible can be used metaphorically or used in context to something that is temporary.
Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6).
Other translations say the mountains were “shattered“ (NASB), or “crushed to pieces” (DRB).
So these mountains were not “everlasting” in the sense that it means “for all eternity.”
This has to be the case because Heaven and Earth will pass away, too (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1).
We see also in Hebrews 9:15 about how faithful believers will have an eternal inheritance.
But that does not mean that they will go through a perpetual unending daily state of receiving their inheritance for all eternity.
What Hebrews 9:15 is saying is that they receive their inheritance once from God, and that one time event has everlasting consequences. This is the same concept that is going on in Mathew 25:46. It is a one-time punishment of being destroyed in the Lake of Fire that has everlasting consequences.

None of this conclusively shows that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" but is occasionally used figuratively. Jesus used the word death 18 times, when He meant death. Jesus would not have to tell His audience that death eternal they already knew that, eg. the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.

Most Christians (even in the ECT camp) will not use Revelation 22:11 as saying that this is strictly chronological (as if it was speaking during the times of the New Earth). It is clearly talking in the present tense to all people in all points in time. Verse 10 says, “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.” (Revelation 22:10). This clearly sets the stage and or context for verse 11.
Again, it’s not strictly chronological in that it is talking about the sequence of events of the New Earth.
In context it says:
Revelation 22:12-15
12 “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”
Obviously verse 12 is not talking about how Jesus will come quickly on the New Earth. So this lets us know that the rest of the following words have changed. It is an admonishment about how those who keep God’s commandments have right to the tree of life and outside are sinners. It does not mean that this is speaking in a strict chronological sequence of events from before. The book of Revelation is not written in chronological order.
For example:
Revelation 6-10 appears to be sequential and it begins Daniel’s 70th Week.
Revelation 11 appears to rewind back in time in the chronology at the final last 42 months (picking back up from sometime after the Middle of the Tribulation), and it ends with Jesus Christ coming in Revelation 19. Revelation 20-22 are the next epochs and important events in time (After the Tribulation and Christ’s return).
We take the words of Jesus, Himself, as true cf. Matthew 10:28 (destroy both soul and body), Matthew 3:12 (burn up the chaff), John 6:51 (if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever).
As for your implication that Jesus is speaking in Revelation 22:11:
Well, I do not see it as Jesus speaking in Revelation 22:11.
Revelation 22:9-11 is the angel speaking, and not Jesus.
Revelation 22:12 switches to Jesus speaking (and continues on to verse 16).

Chaff is a part of the grain, which is separated and burned, not a separate plants, eg. tares. What is your point about the speaker changing from Jesus to the angel? That does not change the sequence of the events. How would the people of the 7 cities know about Isaiah and Daniel?
Your trying to switch the chronology around is not logical or reasonable " It [Rev 11] is clearly talking in the present tense to all people in all points in time." Jesus said go into all nations and teach them whatsoever things I have told you. Jesus did not tell all followers in all points of time, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Greek Philosophers Believed in the Immortality of the Soul:

It is clear that PLATO and many Greek philosophers taught the soul was indestructible:
”"The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponet."The Jewish Encyclopedia(www.jewishencyclopedia.com, searched "immortality").”

"Among major schools of Greek thought, only Epicureans denied the soul's immortality" (Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, Downers Grove, Inter Varsity Press, 1993, p.374)

"...immortality of the soul, as normally understood, is not a Biblical doctrine" (The International Bible Commentary, second edition, Grand Rapids, MI, Zondervan Publishing House, 1986, p.60 column 2).
Conclusion: Except for the Epicureans, Greek philosophers taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.

Source:

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

This is why Greeks (Gentiles) today believe it.

As the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun. The Greeks (Gentiles) believed as a whole in the past in the immortality of the soul, and they are continuing that tradition.

 

[Der Alte]

This is why Greeks (Gentiles) today believe it.
As the saying goes, there is nothing new under the sun. The Greeks (Gentiles) believed as a whole in the past in the immortality of the soul, and they are continuing that tradition.

Even if true how does this relate to the topic of this thread, "Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?" I think the title is misleading God does not have to do anything.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How does this address my comment that the son is not punished for the father's sins and vice versa?

You got the comments mixed up.

You said,

“You mean God can't give someone eternal life ​

unless they eat from the tree of life?”​

​

My reply on what you said here above was:

“Yet, we read this towards the end of God’s story involving His people:​

​

Revelation 22:14​

“Blessed are they that do his commandments,​

that they may have right to the tree of life,​

and may enter in through the gates into the city.””​

And when was Paul told about the second death, which is not mentioned until Rev. when John was on the isle of Patmos?

God’s Word breathes as a cohesive whole. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Meaning, God is the ultimate author of the Bible. So God knows that the connection between what He inspired Paul to write (things like death, destruction) matches up with the “second death” mentioned in Revelation. Paul said things like, “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Obviously everyone is going to die (including many believers), but Paul brings up a contrast between “the gift of God is eternal life“ with “death” in Romans 6:23. Paul calls it an everlasting destruction. It is a one time destruction that has everlasting consequences. It is illogical to allegorize the words “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9) because destruction implies annihilation of something.

But Revelation 20:10 that uses the words ”day” “night” and “for ever and ever” in Isaiah 34:10 gives us the code key or meaning behind these same words used in Revelation 20:10. Isaiah is referring to a city is on fire night and day and a smoke that will go up for ever. However, the city is not going to burn and put off smoke for all eternity because Jesus said Heaven and Earth shall pass away (Matthew 24:35)

When did the seven cities in Asia get copies of the books of Isaiah and Daniel?

Why would you assume that they didn’t have copies of these portions of Scripture?
Even an Ethiopian eunuch had a copy to some degree of the scroll of Isaiah.
Even if they did not have copies of Isaiah and Daniel, today we have a Bible for believers today (That does have Isaiah and Daniel in it).
God is not the God of the dead but of the living.
God moves with the times.

In Revelation 19:1-3 (Just one chapter away from Revelation 20:10) talks about how the city of Mystery Babylon and her smoke will go up, “for ever, and ever.” Revelation 19:1-3 sets the stage of meaning for the words used in Revelation 20:10. Again, you cannot have a city going up in smoke for all eternity if the Earth will pass away according to Jesus words in Matthew 24:35 (cf. Revelation 21:1). So this lets us know that the words in Revelation 20:10 “night” “day” and “for ever and ever” are not to be read as meaning ”for all eternity.” We compare Scripture with Scripture to get the meaning or definition of those words and it cannot mean “for all eternity.”

That the word. "eternal" is used figuratively for something that is not/could not be eternal does NOT change the inherent meaning. So terms such as "eternal punishment" cannot be arbitrarily dismissed in every case.

No. Isaiah 34:9-10 is not talking about “for all eternity.” There is no deeper inherent meaning to Isaiah 34:9-10 that it is referring to “all eternity.” Again, when we see both Isaiah 34:9-10, and Revelation 19:1-3 use words like “for ever” in regards to the smoke of those cities going up forever (in a parabolic sense) we must conclude that to be consistent with that wording when we read it in Revelation 20:10. One cannot read verses in a vacuum. We must compare Scripture with Scripture to give us the correct meaning. When I present evidence like this to ECT Christians they generally ignore it despite the biblical evidence and so all logic and reason in looking to other verses to support Conditional Immortality must be ignored by them.

Does NOT refute the fact that the false prophet must have been a person. People would not knowingly listen to a demon posing as a prophet.

So what is the second beast coming up out the ground?
Is that another being or entity?
Is it human or is it a fallen angel?
Do you not see a connection between this second beast in Revelation 13 with the false prophet in Revelation 16?