Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

[Bible Highlighter]

Does NOT refute the fact that the false prophet must have been a person. People would not knowingly listen to a demon posing as a prophet.

I would simply encourage you to reread Revelation 13, and Revelation 16 (and see if there is a connection or similarity of between the other beast that comes up out of the ground with the false prophet.

None of this conclusively shows that "aionios" does not mean "eternal" but is occasionally used figuratively.

The Greek word “aiōnios” is clearly used figuratively (or not meaning eternal) with the English words “for ever” in Philemon 1:15. So then how do you really know for sure that the other occurrences of this Greek word may also be interpreted in that way?

You also appear to take Revelation 20:10 as being ”eternal.” The English word “ever” is the Greek word: “aiōn”. But if the aiōn can be used figuratively in verses like Revelation 19:3, then how do you know for sure it is not figurative in Revelation 20:10?

Jesus used the word death 18 times, when He meant death. Jesus would not have to tell His audience that death eternal they already knew that, eg. the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection.

Death means death. It is not a metaphor for eternal torture in fire for all eternity.

Chaff is a part of the grain, which is separated and burned, not a separate plants, eg. tares.

I never said otherwise that chaff is a different plant from wheat.
In fact, I known for a long time what chaff is. You did not need to tell me what it is.
But the point here you are missing is that the chaff represents the wicked among the wheat and this chaff (the wicked) will be burned up and be consumed by the fire. Why? Well, that’s what fires do.

What is your point about the speaker changing from Jesus to the angel?

You implied that Jesus said the words in Revelation 22:11 when this was actually the angel speaking.

How would the people of the 7 cities know about Isaiah and Daniel?

Why do you think they would not have known about the Isaiah and Daniel scrolls?

Your trying to switch the chronology around is not logical or reasonable " It [Rev 11] is clearly talking in the present tense to all people in all points in time." Jesus said go into all nations and teach them whatsoever things I have told you. Jesus did not tell all followers in all points of time, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still."

Well, all I can say is check with other believers. Talk to other ECT Christians. I am sure not all of them will share your odd chronological interpretation here upon the text. You can even talk to a grammar specialist who is not even Christian and they can give you their unbiased opinion of your odd reading here. How about checking out a chronological bible or articles that attempt to place Revelation into a chronology.

Here is just one article:

Book Of Revelation Chronological Order - Pursuing Intimacy With God

Book of Revelation Chronological Order Bible study. The book of Revelation has a chronological order of events to come in the end times.

www.intimacywithgod.com

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Even if true how does this relate to the topic of this thread, "Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?" I think the title is misleading God does not have to do anything.

It’s quoted sources (even one that is from the Jewish encyclopedia).

Again, it says in the Jewish encyclopedia:

“The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponet."The Jewish Encyclopedia(www.jewishencyclopedia.com, searched "immortality").”

Meaning, most Greeks today believe like the Greeks in the past. It’s not a coincidence.
That is why it is the prevailing thought in Christianity today. It’s an old belief that stems back from Greek philosophy.

 

[Der Alte]

It’s quoted sources (even one that is from the Jewish encyclopedia.
Again, it says in the Jewish encyclopedia:
“The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponet."The Jewish Encyclopedia(www.jewishencyclopedia.com, searched "immortality").”
Meaning, most Greeks today believe like the Greeks in the past. It’s not a coincidence.
That is why it is the prevailing thought in Christianity today. It’s an old belief that stems back from Greek philosophy.

Your conclusion is a non sequitur. It does not necessarily follow that because the Jewish "belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought" that is how/why it came into Christianity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your conclusion is a non sequitur. It does not necessarily follow that because the Jewish "belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought" that is how/why it came into Christianity.

I did not write the article in the Jewish encyclopedia. They did. You quoted Jewish sources before. Here is one of their encyclopedias saying that it was Greek thought that influenced the Jews involving the immortality of the soul.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@BNR32FAN

If you are interested, you can check out my defense of “Dualistic Conditional Immortality” here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

www.christianforums.com

Also, check out this article here, as well.

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical

Why hell is destruction, not eternal torment. Absolute Biblical proof of conditional immortality. What was taught in the Old Testament? What did Judaism teach? In-depth discussion on Conditional Immortality, Annihilationism, Traditionalism, and more! Here are the answers/Scriptures that you...

www.jewishnotgreek.com

(Note: Keep in mind I don’t share the author’s view on hell. I believe hell is a real place; But I do agree with the article that the wicked will perish in the Lake of Fire).

 

[Der Alte]

I did not write the article in the Jewish encyclopedia. They did. You quoted Jewish sources before. Here is one of their encyclopedias saying that it was Greek thought that influenced the Jews involving the immortality of the soul.

My comment was not about what the Jews did/did not believe but about this false conclusion from your previous post.
Meaning, most Greeks today believe like the Greeks in the past. It’s not a coincidence. i.e.

​

"Meaning, most Greeks today believe like the Greeks in the past. It’s not a coincidence. That is why it is the prevailing thought in Christianity today. It’s an old belief that stems back from Greek philosophy.​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My comment was not about what the Jews did/did not believe but about this false conclusion from your previous post.
Meaning, most Greeks today believe like the Greeks in the past. It’s not a coincidence. i.e.

​

"Meaning, most Greeks today believe like the Greeks in the past. It’s not a coincidence. That is why it is the prevailing thought in Christianity today. It’s an old belief that stems back from Greek philosophy.​

I think the Jewish encyclopedia article brings weight to my stand on this topic. The Greeks influenced the Jews to believe in ECT.
The Greeks or Gentiles did not know God and therefore they cannot be a trustworthy source for knowing spiritual truth in God’s Word outside of knowing basic moral laws (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etcetera).

 

[Der Alte]

I think the Jewish encyclopedia article brings weight to my stand on this topic. The Greeks influenced the Jews to believe in ECT.
The Greeks or Gentiles did not know God and therefore they cannot be a trustworthy source for knowing spiritual truth in God’s Word outside of knowing basic moral laws (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etcetera).

In the absence of credible, verifiable historical evidence, what you "think", "surmise" "presume" etc. about what Christians, other than yourself believe, is no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In the absence of credible, verifiable historical evidence, what you "think", "surmise" "presume" etc. about what Christians, other than yourself believe, is no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.

And what you consider as credible verifiable historical evidence is no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.
It’s just your opinion, as well. But I know truth is on my side because…

(a) You have not properly explained the Conditional Immortality verses that refute ECT.
(b) You refuse to see that Conditional Immortality apologetics is not at least plausible (even if you do not agree with it).
(c) You have not brought forth any verses showing how God needs to punish the wicked for eternity because the wicked are sinning against God eternally.
(d) You have not made a real world example defending ECT.
(e) You refuse to see the inconsistency of your use of “for ever and ever.” For example: The words “for ever and ever” used in Revelation 19:3 is parabolic and yet you take these words to be literal in the next chapter (Revelation 20:10).

 

[DavidPT]

You mean God can't give someone eternal life unless they eat from the tree of life?

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When was this meaning? Before man fell? Or after man fell? Obviously, before man fell. And that the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which means he could freely eat of the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

When was this meaning? Before man fell? Or after man fell? Obviously, after man fell. Which now means he could no longer eat of the tree of life since it was still in the midst of the garden and that he was outside of the garden no longer having access to the tree of life.

And what has happened to every human being since? All eventually die at some point. Why? Simple. No one has access to the tree of life anymore during this present age. Therefore, no one can yet live forever. Except that changes once Christ returns.

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God(Revelation 2:7)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city(Revelation 22:14)

Does everyone gain access to the tree of life when Christ returns, including those cast into the lake of fire? Only if Universalism is true. But since Universalism is not true, there you go then.

ECT totally ignores---put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever--and insists some humans can bypass this altogether and live forever via another means, one the Bible knows nothing of, otherwise ECT proponents should be able to produce clear Scripture showing how those cast into the LOF have the ability to live forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 involves bodily immortality, except ECT proponents can't use that passage to support how the lost can remain bodily alive in the LOF forever, since they would have to apply verse 57 to the lost as well. IOW, the context involving 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 doesn't support the fate of the lost as well.

And even if ECT proponents argue all souls are immortal, so what? How does that solve, even if true, that the lost are cast bodily into the LOF? Are these same ECT proponents also going to argue that God initially made all bodies immortal as well?

Not one person since the tree of life has been blocked has been able to bodily live forever as of yet. And that ECT proponents would have us believe that there are some humans that will be able to live bodily forever without ever having access to the tree of life.

 

[Der Alte]

And what you consider as credible verifiable historical evidence is no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.
It’s just your opinion, as well. But I know truth is on my side because…
(a) You have not properly explained the Conditional Immortality verses that refute ECT.
(b) You refuse to see that Conditional Immortality apologetics is not at least plausible (even if you do not agree with it).
(c) You have not brought forth any verses showing how God needs to punish the wicked for eternity because the wicked are sinning against God eternally.
(d) You have not made a real world example defending ECT.
(e) You refuse to see the inconsistency of your use of “for ever and ever.” For example: The words “for ever and ever” used in Revelation 19:3 is parabolic and yet you take these words to be literal in the next chapter (Revelation 20:10).

(a) There are no, zero, none vss. which refute ECT!
(b) Don't know what you are talking about.
(c) God does NOT have to do anything.
(d) There is NO Biblical requirement to make a real world example to verify anything.
(e) I have explained my Biblical understanding of "aionios" really, actually, literally means "eternal" multiple times. I have also explained my Biblical understanding of "aion" really, actually, literally means "eternity" multiple times.
If they did not actually mean eternal/eternity then neither Jesus, Peter, Paul nor John could define/describe them as eternal/eternity, as they did.
How do I explain when aionios/aion is used to refer to something that is not or could not be eternal? The words are being used figuratively or parabolically. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was no literally a stone when Jesus named him "petros" i.e. stone. Peter was not literally Satan when Jesus called him that. James and John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. All figurative uses.
Links to my previous posts which have never been refuted.

Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

If the Rich Man's body was in Hades suffering than that would be a contradiction. I don't believe the Bible has any significant contradictions. That's why I believe only the Rich Man's spirit/soul is in Hades. The Bible describes human beings as consisting of both bodies and souls(spirit)...

www.christianforums.com

Why would God have to punish the wicked for eternity?

If the Rich Man's body was in Hades suffering than that would be a contradiction. I don't believe the Bible has any significant contradictions. That's why I believe only the Rich Man's spirit/soul is in Hades. The Bible describes human beings as consisting of both bodies and souls(spirit)...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Der Alte]

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When was this meaning? Before man fell? Or after man fell? Obviously, before man fell. And that the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which means he could freely eat of the tree of life.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

When was this meaning? Before man fell? Or after man fell? Obviously, after man fell. Which now means he could no longer eat of the tree of life since it was still in the midst of the garden and that he was outside of the garden no longer having access to the tree of life.

And what has happened to every human being since? All eventually die at some point. Why? Simple. No one has access to the tree of life anymore during this present age. Therefore, no one can yet live forever. Except that changes once Christ returns.

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God(Revelation 2:7)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city(Revelation 22:14)

Does everyone gain access to the tree of life when Christ returns, including those cast into the lake of fire? Only if Universalism is true. But since Universalism is not true, there you go then.

ECT totally ignores---put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever--and insists some humans can bypass this altogether and live forever via another means, one the Bible knows nothing of, otherwise ECT proponents should be able to produce clear Scripture showing how those cast into the LOF have the ability to live forever.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 involves bodily immortality, except ECT proponents can't use that passage to support how the lost can remain bodily alive in the LOF forever, since they would have to apply verse 57 to the lost as well. IOW, the context involving 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 doesn't support the fate of the lost as well.

And even if ECT proponents argue all souls are immortal, so what? How does that solve, even if true, that the lost are cast bodily into the LOF? Are these same ECT proponents also going to argue that God initially made all bodies immortal as well?

Not one person since the tree of life has been blocked has been able to bodily live forever as of yet. And that ECT proponents would have us believe that there are some humans that will be able to live bodily forever without ever having access to the tree of life.

These vss. do not include the words "and eats of the tree of life" as a requirement for eternal life.

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him [and eats of the tree of life] should not perish but have eternal life.​

John 6:54​

(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, [and eats of the tree of life] hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

John 17:3​

(3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent [and eats of the tree of life].​

 

[DavidPT]

These vss. do not include the words "and eats of the tree of life" as a requirement for eternal life.

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him [and eats of the tree of life] should not perish but have eternal life.​

John 6:54​

(54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, [and eats of the tree of life] hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

John 17:3​

(3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent [and eats of the tree of life].​

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Who do you think the overcomers are meaning in this verse if not any of the ones meant in the verses you supplied? Does not one put on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump when Christ returns? And is it not these same ones that will be able to eat from the tree of life after that? Why do they need to eat from the tree of life after they have already put on bodily immortality?

The only thing I can figure out, unless you have a better solution, the fact the tree of life will be here for all eternity, thus, one is eating from it for forever, is because the continual eating from it prevents one from dying. Genesis 2-3 appears to prove that. It wasn't until man lost access to the tree of life when no human could continue bodily living indefinitely.

If one never eats from it ever, such as will be the case with the lost cast into the LOF, how can they continue to live for ever and ever? If the tree of life is not relevant to living for ever, post Christ's return, but that is was relevant in Adam's day following the fall, in regards to living for ever, why then is it recorded in Revelation 22, new heaven and new earth context having to do with eternity?

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


When you read a verse like this, do you take this to mean for only a certain period of time, or do you take it mean for forever?

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

When you read a verse like this, do you take this to mean for only a certain period of time, or do you take it mean for forever?

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Who do you think the overcomers are meaning in this verse if not any of the ones meant in the verses you supplied? Does not one put on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump when Christ returns? And is it not these same ones that will be able to eat from the tree of life after that? Why do they need to eat from the tree of life after they have already put on bodily immortality?
The only thing I can figure out, unless you have a better solution, the fact the tree of life will be here for all eternity, thus, one is eating from it for forever, is because the continual eating from it prevents one from dying. Genesis 2-3 appears to prove that. It wasn't until man lost access to the tree of life when no human could continue bodily living indefinitely.
If one never eats from it ever, such as will be the case with the lost cast into the LOF, how can they continue to live for ever and ever? If the tree of life is not relevant to living for ever, post Christ's return, but that is was relevant in Adam's day following the fall, in regards to living for ever, why then is it recorded in Revelation 22, new heaven and new earth context having to do with eternity?
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
When you read a verse like this, do you take this to mean for only a certain period of time, or do you take it mean for forever?
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
When you read a verse like this, do you take this to mean for only a certain period of time, or do you take it mean for forever?

Does any of this specifically address the 3 vss. I quoted?

 

[DavidPT]

Does any of this specifically address the 3 vss. I quoted?

Is there any reason why you are trying to pit Scriptures against each other?

Is not the following true---That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life?


Is not the following also true---I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God?

And is not the following also true---take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever?

What does all of that add up to if all are true? Are you going to argue that some of those things above are true and some of those things aren't, thus pit Scripture against Scripture?

What you need to prove, is that anyone including the saved, can live for ever without ever eating of the tree of life. Why does Genesis 3:22 undeniably tell us, that to take of the tree of life, and eat, one will live for ever, unless God literally meant that? In Genesis 3 it is the devil being deceitful about things not God.

Why is the tree of life present and being eaten from throughout all eternity if it has zero to do with living for ever? It's little clues like this that tell us ECT can't be true in regards to humans, the fact no human can live for ever unless they have access to the tree of life for ever. Which means, for example, 100 trillion years from now the saved will still be eating from the tree of life while the lost will never be eating from it ever.

We are then to believe that lost humans will still be alive 100 trillion years later, let alone all eternity? How? Produce the Scriptures that show how the lost also receive immortal bodies that can't die, and how they can live for ever without ever eating from the tree of life. Until you or anyone else can do that first, in the meantime you are just assuming things that are not even logical, that humans can somehow bodily live for ever and not even have to eat from the tree of life in order to do so. That God provided a different way for them to live for ever. If that's true, then produce the Scriptures that show and prove it.

 

[Der Alte]

Is there any reason why you are trying to pit Scriptures against each other?
Is not the following true---That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life?
Is not the following also true---I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God?
And is not the following also true---take of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever?
What does all of that add up to if all are true? Are you going to argue that some of those things above are true and some of those things aren't, thus pit Scripture against Scripture?
What you need to prove, is that anyone including the saved, can live for ever without ever eating of the tree of life. Why does Genesis 3:22 undeniably tell us, that to take of the tree of life, and eat, one will live for ever, unless God literally meant that? In Genesis 3 it is the devil being deceitful about things not God.
Why is the tree of life present and being eaten from throughout all eternity if it has zero to do with living for ever? It's little clues like this that tell us ECT can't be true in regards to humans, the fact no human can live for ever unless they have access to the tree of life for ever. Which means, for example, 100 trillion years from now the saved will still be eating from the tree of life while the lost will never be eating from it ever.
We are then to believe that lost humans will still be alive 100 trillion years later, let alone all eternity? How? Produce the Scriptures that show how the lost also receive immortal bodies that can't die, and how they can live for ever without ever eating from the tree of life. Until you or anyone else can do that first, in the meantime you are just assuming things that are not even logical, that humans can somehow bodily live for ever and not even have to eat from the tree of life in order to do so. That God provided a different way for them to live for ever. If that's true, then produce the Scriptures that show and prove it.

The is a wild trip out in the boonies from what I posted, three vss. John 3:15, John 6:54, John 17:3 which said that a person received eternal life without mentioning eating from the tree of life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


Who do you think the overcomers are meaning in this verse if not any of the ones meant in the verses you supplied? Does not one put on bodily immortality in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump when Christ returns? And is it not these same ones that will be able to eat from the tree of life after that? Why do they need to eat from the tree of life after they have already put on bodily immortality?

The only thing I can figure out, unless you have a better solution, the fact the tree of life will be here for all eternity, thus, one is eating from it for forever, is because the continual eating from it prevents one from dying. Genesis 2-3 appears to prove that. It wasn't until man lost access to the tree of life when no human could continue bodily living indefinitely.

If one never eats from it ever, such as will be the case with the lost cast into the LOF, how can they continue to live for ever and ever? If the tree of life is not relevant to living for ever, post Christ's return, but that is was relevant in Adam's day following the fall, in regards to living for ever, why then is it recorded in Revelation 22, new heaven and new earth context having to do with eternity?

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


When you read a verse like this, do you take this to mean for only a certain period of time, or do you take it mean for forever?

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

When you read a verse like this, do you take this to mean for only a certain period of time, or do you take it mean for forever?

David. Great job here!

Brother: Hopefully others who come across this forum will have ears to hear will be able to listen.
We know many here will not be able to receive what is written in the Word of God because of their tradition of ECT.
It’s hard for some people to let go of an old belief that has become comfortable to them. For others, it could be a matter of pride in that they cannot be wrong ever no matter what new evidence is presented to them. We don’t know why folks do not accept the truth; But they do.

I know at one time I did not accept the truth of Conditional Immortality right away fully.
It took time for me to come out of the tradition of ECT because it had become ingrained in me for so long.

Anyways, all we can do is just share the truth of Scripture and pray that somebody out there will see what we have written with the Word (to enlighten their eyes by the Spirit). Many I know will never see such a truth in His Word, and we have to accept that. All we can do is share, pray, and love, my brother.

I hope your day is going well in The Lord, and please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

A Bible Highlighter.

 

[Der Alte]

***
We are then to believe that lost humans will still be alive 100 trillion years later, let alone all eternity? How? Produce the Scriptures that show how the lost also receive immortal bodies that can't die, and how they can live for ever without ever eating from the tree of life. Until you or anyone else can do that first, in the meantime you are just assuming things that are not even logical, that humans can somehow bodily live for ever and not even have to eat from the tree of life in order to do so. That God provided a different way for them to live for ever. If that's true, then produce the Scriptures that show and prove it.

I believe that God can do anything He wants to with "lost humans" as long as or as briefly as He chooses when and how He chooses. I have already posted 3 verses, which say someone receives eternal life but neither mention eating from the tree of life.
The scripture which show the lost receive immortal bodies, Matt 25:46, Luke 16:19, Luke 16:26, Rev 20:10, Rev 22:11, Rev 22:15.

 

[DavidPT]

David. Great job here!

Brother: Hopefully others who come across this forum will have ears to hear will be able to listen.
We know many here will not be able to receive what is written in the Word of God because of their tradition of ECT.
It’s hard for some people to let go of an old belief that has become comfortable to them. For others, it could be a matter of pride in that they cannot be wrong ever no matter what new evidence is presented to them. We don’t know why folks do not accept the truth; But they do.

I know at one time I did not accept the truth of Conditional Immortality right away fully.
It took time for me to come out of the tradition of ECT because it had become ingrained in me for so long.

Anyways, all we can do is just share the truth of Scripture and pray that somebody out there will see what we have written with the Word (to enlighten their eyes by the Spirit). Many I know will never see such a truth in His Word, and we have to accept that. All we can do is share, pray, and love, my brother.

I hope your day is going well in The Lord, and please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

A Bible Highlighter.

From our perspective, for example, pertaining to this present age only, one is sentenced to death for a crime they committed, then the death sentence being carried out on them. Would this not be an example of everlasting punishment, the fact once this death sentence is carried out they will no longer be living and breathing in this present age ever again?

In order, per this scenario, for this to be everlasting punishment, does it require that they need to keep being put to death multiple different times, or does it require that that only needs to happen to them just one time?

In Matthew 25 if everlasting punishment involves being tormented until one has reached a state of non existence, thus everlasting death, why would the latter not also be part of the punishment?

Some interpreters argue, that if the punishing leads to non existence eventually, this means no one has been punished since they wouldn't be being tortured once they become non existent. It would be a time of peace for them instead, it would be a time of relief, and that the torturing they endured up until they no longer exist, it was all in vain, thus pointless since they will no longer rember any of this if they cease to exist at some point. Let's test that theory by using the following example.

A sadistic person is out in the woods and gets attacked by a coyote, which then enrages this person. This person then sets a trap for it and captures it, but instead of killing it right off the bat, he decides to slowly torture it to death until it is eventually dead. Coyotes don't rise from the dead, right? Coyotes don't have souls that go to either heaven or hell upon death, right? Which technically means once they are dead they no longer exist.

One is to then believe, that while the coyote was being tortured to death, thus being punished, none of this actually counts as punishment since the coyote will no longer exist once it is dead? Try telling that to the coyote while it is being tortured to death prior to it eventually dying then no longer existing. But, since the coyote would be at peace, thus relief from the torture, by now being dead and no longer existing, it's punishing was all for nothing since it no longer matters to the coyote once it is dead. Which is basically the same way some interpreters are reasoning some of these things if annihilation in the LOF is true. Try telling that to those being tortured in the LOF before they are annihilated, though.

 

[Der Alte]

@DavidPT
In the NT Jesus used the word "death" 18 times, when He meant death, He said death. When Jesus said "these shall go away into eternal punishment." Matt 25:46 His audience knew that when people died it was permanent, they didn't come back. Also, unlike the folks at this forum they didn't have years and years of denominational pastors, teachers etc. teaching them universal reconciliation.