Question for Preterists ...

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Gideon

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... and Amills ... and Covt Theos ... and Part Pretty’s ...

What does this verse mean?
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luke 21:24

Exactly what (in your scheme of things) is this talking about.

Gideon
 

Jipsah

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... and Amills ... and Covt Theos ... and Part Pretty’s ...

What does this verse mean?

Taking my usual OP (orthodox preterist) stance - it means what it says.

Now, my question in return is, what else do you think it means? That's where we come into conflict, isn't it? Taking a verse and saying "OK, here's what it says, but what it (really means/also means/must signify/clearly teaches) is..." then finishing the sentence with a "meaning" that's designed to support whatever doctrinal ax we're trying to grind.

So go ahead and grind your dispensationalist ax. ;)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The time of the Great Tribulation, where Jerusalem will be trampled by AntiChrist and his armies.
Did you ever notice the wording of Matt 13:49 where instead of coming to seperate the righteous out of the wicked it says to seperate the wicked out of the midst of the righteous.

So doesn't that imply the righteous stay? :eek:

(Young) Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full End of the Age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Daniel 12:3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the End; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Reve 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great voice from the sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, `It hath come!'
 
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pehkay

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Did you ever notice the wording of Matt 13:49 where instead of coming to seperate the righteous out of the wicked it says to seperate the wicked out of the midst of the righteous.

So doesn't that imply the righteous stay? :eek:

(Young) Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full End of the Age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Daniel 12:3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the End; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

Ah .. in verses 47-50, it concerns The Eternal Gospel and Its Result. The net here is not the gospel of grace. Instead it is the eternal gospel declared in Rev 14:6-7. That time, Antichrist will persecute jews and the Christians. An angel will be sent forth to proclaim the eternal gospel (different from gospel of grace). It is more that men should fear God and worship Him rather than repentance and faith in Christ Jesus.

Here, those who treat the believers favorably at that time, will be regarded as "sheep". And those who do not are regarted as "goats."
The goats will be casat into eternal fire, but the sheep will be transferred to the millinnium to be the citizens on the earth (vs the overcoming believers as co-kings with Christ).

:D
 
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Jipsah

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Dont assume that I'm dispensational.
Sorry. You have to understand that this is a forum where people typically post stuff like "the Bible says that the antichrist will come from the Europe, will become secretary general of the UN, drive a Mercedes-Benz, and wear bespoke suits made in Hong Kong." So by default I figure everyone is a Lindseyite dispensationalist until I'm told otherwise.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So doesn't that imply the righteous stay? :eek:

(Young) Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full End of the Age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Daniel 12:3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the End; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Ah .. in verses 47-50, it concerns The Eternal Gospel and Its Result. The net here is not the gospel of grace. Instead it is the eternal gospel declared in Rev 14:6-7. That time, Antichrist will persecute jews and the Christians. An angel will be sent forth to proclaim the eternal gospel (different from gospel of grace). It is more that men should fear God and worship Him rather than repentance and faith in Christ Jesus.

Here, those who treat the believers favorably at that time, will be regarded as "sheep". And those who do not are regarted as "goats."
The goats will be casat into eternal fire, but the sheep will be transferred to the millinnium to be the citizens on the earth (vs the overcoming believers as co-kings with Christ).

:D
Um,, Daniel 12 shows the resurrection of the dead and that judgment happens when Jesus comes in Matt 13, unless you are implying we are in the millinium now.

(Young) Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full End of the Age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Dan 121 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation [Luke 21:22], [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be saved, Every one who is found written in the book. :2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.
[SIZE=+2] [/SIZE]reve 20: 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
[SIZE=+2] [/SIZE]
 
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pehkay

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Um,, Daniel 12 shows the resurrection of the dead and that judgment happens when Jesus comes in Matt 13, unless you are implying we are in the millinium now.

(Young) Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full End of the Age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Dan 121 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation [Luke 21:22], [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be saved, Every one who is found written in the book. :2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

Ah, I see the problem ... there are a lot of sections in Matt 13. Watch for "... the kingdom of the heavens is like", which marks each sections.

The verse you quoted is a section from vv. 47-50 which is on the eternal gospel.

The first six parables in Matthew 13 are related to the church. In the church there are the abnormal ones, and around the church there are the false ones. Thus, directly or indirectly, the first six parables are related to the church. But what happens to the people outside of the church, those in the world?

The seventh parable, the parable of the net, is related not to the church. but to the world, to the nations.

The net here is not the gospel of grace. Instead, it is the eternal gospel declared in Revelation 14:6 and 7.

During the tribulation, Antichrist, who will oppose all religion, will persecute both Christians and Jews. So we are not in the millenium.
Antichrist will set himself up as God, erecting an image of himself and compelling people to worship it, the eternal gospel will tell people to worship God, the One who created the heavens, the earth, and the sea, not to worship the idol of Antichrist.

Here, those who treat the believers favorably at that time, will be regarded as "sheep". And those who do not are regarted as "goats."

Hope it helps...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So doesn't that imply the righteous stay? :eek:

(Young) Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full End of the Age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Daniel 12:3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. 4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the End; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
The first six parables in Matthew 13 are related to the church. In the church there are the abnormal ones, and around the church there are the false ones. Thus, directly or indirectly, the first six parables are related to the church. But what happens to the people outside of the church, those in the world?
The False one being the Law of Moses in the NC of Christ today perhaps? There were 2 "churches/covenants in the NT.
(Young) Acts 7:38 `This is he who was in the assembly/"church" in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us;
The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus concerns the Jews and Israel if you study it close enough [the Jews of today just don't realize it yet
:
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm [Rich Man and Lazarus]

What Gospel are these "2 witnesses" preaching to Israel and Judah and is this past, present, future or ongoing today and why would they need to preach the same one again the Paul and Jesus preached? Aren't they the ones bringing the New Covenant to both Israel and Judah/Jews? :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 11:3 and I shall be giving to the two Witnesses/m of me sackcloths, having been about cast, and they shall be prophesying a thousand, two hundred, sixty days;
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold! Days/Times/yowm, ones coming, declaration of Y@hovah, and I CUT with house/bayith of Israel and house/bayith of Judah NEW Covenant/b@riyth.
 
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pehkay

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The False one being the Law of Moses in the NC of Christ today perhaps? There were 2 "churches/covenants in the NT. The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus concerns the Jews and Israel if you study it close enough [the Jews of today just don't realize it yet
:
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/abraham/abrahams_bosom.htm [Rich Man and Lazarus]

What Gospel are these "2 witnesses" preaching to Israel and Judah and is this past, present, future or ongoing today and why would they need to preach the same one again the Paul and Jesus preached? Aren't they the ones bringing the New Covenant to both Israel and Judah/Jews? :wave:

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 11:3 and I shall be giving to the two Witnesses/m of me sackcloths, having been about cast, and they shall be prophesying a thousand, two hundred, sixty days;

It not that complicated ... :D
If you look at today's Christendom, you will see that the real Christians are the wheat and that the false Christians have been mixed with the real ones to frustrate their growth. Many are Christian in name but not regenerated ...

The parable of the rich man and lazarus:
Not sure.. it may.
For me, it is more significance that all man who died will go to Hades until the Lord come back (resurrection of the dead). Hades is a place where disembodied spirits are kept temporarily. There are two sections in Hades: the section of comfort, a pleasant section, for the saved, and the section of torment for the unsaved. This story was directed at the rich Pharisees, as money-lovers who were incited by their riches to indulge their lust.

The dead will remain in Hades until the day of resurrection. When the Lord Jesus comes back, the saved ones will be resurrected. This will take place before the millennium, before the thousand years of God's reign on earth. The unsaved ones will remain in the section of torment in Hades for another thousand years. At the end of the millennium the unsaved ones will be resurrected from Hades and, with a body, will stand before the white throne to be judged and condemned to eternal perdition. Then their entire being--body, soul, and spirit--will be cast into the lake of fire.

Two witnesses:
Two witnesses give an adequate testimony (Deut. 17:6; 19:15; Matt. 18:16). The two witnesses here are Moses and Elijah. What they do are the same as what Moses and Elijah did (Exo 7:17, 19; 9:14; 11:1; 2 Kings 1:10-12; 1 Kings 17:1). Moses and Elijah appeared before the Lord on the mount of transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-3). Moses, representing the law, and Elijah, representing the prophets (Luke 16:16), both testified for God. Elijah's mission was predicted (Mal. 4:5; Matt. 17:11). They are the two olive trees, the two sons of oil, in Zech. 4:3, 11-14.

According to Revelation 14, immediately after the rapture of the firstfruit, Antichrist will persecute God's people and compel them to worship him and his image (14:9-12). At this time, the two witnesses will strengthen God's people. Simultaneously, an angel "flying in mid-heaven" will preach "an eternal gospel" (14:6). This gospel, which is different from the gospel of life or the gospel of the kingdom, will charge people to fear God, implying that they should not persecute His people, and to worship Him, implying that they should not worship Antichrist. Thus, during the great tribulation, there will be two kinds of strengthenings: the strengthening by the two witnesses and the strengthening by the preaching of the eternal gospel.


The eternal gospel is different from gospel of grace. That time, it is already too late, in the sense, to receive the Lord Jesus to be Christian. During the three and one-half years Antichrist will force people to worship his image, an angel in mid-air will proclaim the eternal gospel, telling the people on earth not to worship the image but to fear God and worship Him. It's not the new covenant ministry.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The eternal gospel is different from gospel of grace. :confused:That time, it is already too late, in the sense, to receive the Lord Jesus to be Christian. During the three and one-half years Antichrist will force people to worship his image, an angel in mid-air will proclaim the eternal gospel, telling the people on earth not to worship the image but to fear God and worship Him. It's not the new covenant :eek: ministry.
How are they different?

Matt 23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of gehenna?

Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end [ sun-teleia] of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous.
Ezkeiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to Cleanse/purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the 'Adonay Y@hovih.
 
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pehkay

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How are they different?

Matt 23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of gehenna?

Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end [ sun-teleia] of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous.

Between these 2 verses? I don't see any connection. Matt 23 is on the Lord's rebuking of the Pharisees. Matt 13 is on the mysteries of the kingdom.

Matt 23:29 says, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you build the graves of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous."

Monuments here refer to the tombs of the righteous. Outside of Jerusalem there are a number of monuments. The Pharisees remodeled the graves of the prophets and adorned them in order to make a show.

The Lord said that by doing this they were proving that they were the sons of those who murdered the prophets (v. 31). Thus, the Lord called them "serpents" and the "brood of vipers" (v. 33). As verse 34 indicates, the scribes and Pharisees later scourged and killed the New Testament apostles sent out by the Lord.

:confused:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
How are they different?

Matt 23:32 "Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers' [guilt.] 33 "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of gehenna?

Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end [ sun-teleia] of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous.
Between these 2 verses? I don't see any connection. Matt 23 is on the Lord's rebuking of the Pharisees. Matt 13 is on the mysteries of the kingdom.

Matt 23:29 says, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you build the graves of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous."

Monuments here refer to the tombs of the righteous. Outside of Jerusalem there are a number of monuments. The Pharisees remodeled the graves of the prophets and adorned them in order to make a show.

The Lord said that by doing this they were proving that they were the sons of those who murdered the prophets (v. 31). Thus, the Lord called them "serpents" and the "brood of vipers" (v. 33). As verse 34 indicates, the scribes and Pharisees later scourged and killed the New Testament apostles sent out by the Lord.
So why wouldn't those "cursed ones" be the ones being "buried" in Ezekiel 39:12? I am sure that would be how the OC Jewish christians would have looked at it . :confused:
Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already,
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from You [Judah/Levi?], and shall be given to a Nation [Israel?] bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Ezkeiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to Cleanse/purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the Land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the 'Adonay Y@hovih.
 
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pehkay

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So why wouldn't those "cursed ones" be the ones being "buried" in Ezekiel 39:12? I am sure that would be how the OC Jewish christians would have looked at it . :confused:Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from You [Judah/Levi?], and shall be given to a Nation [Israel?] bringing forth the fruits thereof.


I must apologize here. I don't see the connection. :D

What is mentioned in chs. 38-39 is on Gog and Magog. Gog and Magog (Russia) probably corresponds to what is written in Rev. 14:19-20; 16:12-21; and 19:11-18 concerning the war at Armageddon. This may indicate that Gog and Magog will take the lead among the nations who seek to destroy Israel at the end of this age.

Try:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from You [Israel], and shall be given to a Nation [Church] bringing forth the fruits thereof

:D

Since the kingdom of God was already there among the Israelites, the transfer (due to rejection from the Jews) was to the church (since the nation are Gentiles). The church will be the reality of the kingdom of heavens today (Matt 18 or 5-7).

At this moment, I am still not sure what you getting at?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
So why wouldn't those "cursed ones" be the ones being "buried" in Ezekiel 39:12? I am sure that would be how the OC Jewish christians would have looked at it . :confused:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from You [Judah/Levi?], and shall be given to a Nation [Israel?] bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Ezkeiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to Cleanse/purify the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the Land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the 'Adonay Y@hovih.
I must apologize here. I don't see the connection. :D

What is mentioned in chs. 38-39 is on Gog and Magog. Gog and Magog (Russia) probably corresponds to what is written in Rev. 14:19-20; 16:12-21; and 19:11-18 concerning the war at Armageddon. This may indicate that Gog and Magog will take the lead among the nations who seek to destroy Israel at the end of this age.
Could it be you are looking at revelation as a "gentile" instead of an OC Jew?

Do you see a connection between the court in revelation, the son/maid servant in Galatians and the "sons of the kingdom" in Matt?
If you were a Jew, how would you view this? :wave:

30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman; ' [Genesis 21:10]

reve 11:2 And the Court [#833], the one without[ exqen] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be you Casting- Out! [#1544 ekbale ] Out-side [#1854 exw] and ye should not be measuring it/her,.......
Matthew 8:12 "But the sons [#5207] of the kingdom [#932] shall be being cast out [#1544 ekblhqhsontai] into outer [#1857] darkness.
 
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pehkay

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Could it be you are looking at revelation as a "gentile" instead of an OC Jew?

Do you see a connection between the court in revelation, the son/maid servant in Galatians and the "sons of the kingdom" in Matt?
If you were a Jew, how would you view this? :wave:

30 but what saith the Writing? `Be you casting out! [#1544 ekbale] the maid-servant and her son, for the son of the maid-servant may not be heir with the son of the free-woman; ' [Genesis 21:10]

reve 11:2 And the Court [#833], the one without[ exqen] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be you Casting- Out! [#1544 ekbale ] Out-side [#1854 exw] and ye should not be measuring it/her,.......

Well, I am not a Jew :p. So I won't know.

But one thing I know is that we cannot come to the Bible with our background, views and human opinions. It like putting a "coloured" glasses to view the divine revelation. Just like an ethical person coming to the Bible will see ethical things, like Husband, love your wife instead of Christ and the church in Eph.

Oh well, it's nice talking to you. I outta this thread. Grace be with you, brother.
 
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