Islam attacks Israel

[keras]

keras, I think Trump is declaring a "cease fire".

But it is not the peace and safety saying of 1Thessalonians 5:1-11.

I think it will be. Both Iran and Israel need to step back for a while now.
We all know very well that any peace agreement with Islamic Iran, won't be worth the paper it is written on. They still have enough enriched Uranium to make several nukes.

Also, there are other Prophesies, like Isaiah 3:1-7 and Isaiah 22:6-8a, will happen before the Lord takes action.

 

[Douggg]

I think it will be. Both Iran and Israel need to step back for a while now.
We all know very well that any peace agreement with Islamic Iran, won't be worth the paper it is written on. They still have enough enriched Uranium to make several nukes.

Also, there are other Prophesies, like Isaiah 3:1-7 and Isaiah 22:6-8a, will happen before the Lord takes action.

keras, the delusion of peace and safety of 1Thessalonains5 will be because of a false messianic age.

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Did you watch that video I posted of why the muslims want to kill all the Jews ? It is because of their belief that the 12 iman, i.e. the Mahdi will not come until all the Jews are dead. What a terrible religion.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You said;

I asked why Jesus would speak to his disciples about his return when they didn't even understand that he had to go away.
In fact I got that wrong; Jesus wasn't speaking to his disciples here, but to the Jewish leaders who were questioning his authority. If we read these verses in context, John 5:21 says that just as the Father gives life to the dead, so the Son gives life to those he chooses. John 5:25 says, "truly I tell you a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God". (Tradition says that before Jesus was raised from the dead, he went and preached to all who had died before they had been able to hear the Gospel.) He then goes on to say that whoever hears the voice of the Son of God will live.
Then he told them that a time was coming when all who were in their graves would hear his voice and come out. He says nothing here about his return. It was you who said that people coming out of their graves had to indicate the 2nd coming.
In fact, the dead hearing his voice could refer to when Jesus preached to them after his own death, or it could be that they heard the Gospel after the tombs were opened at his crucifixion.

I wasn't talking about Jesus' return. I was challenging your assumption about John 5:28.

That was my only point.
John 5:28-29 says;

Where, in those verses, are the words, "when I return"? And Jesus has been talking about the Father, do the words, "his voice" mean the voice of God the Father, or the voice of Jesus, the Son of God?
Jesus might have been hinting at future judgement and how even the dead who have rejected the Gospel will be judged and condemned. But he says nothing about his return - he hadn't even yet mentioned going away, never mind coming back again. The subject of the passage is the authority of the Son, because the Jewish leaders were grumbling that Jesus healed on the sabbath.

Did you even read my post? I clearly said in my post that I wasn't saying that He specifically referred to His return in John 5:28-29. Right? Did you not see that somehow? My point is that what He described in John 5:28-29 is something that will occur when He returns. We know that because of what is taught in other scripture which talks about the dead being resurrected when He returns.

 

[Douggg]

Did you even read my post? I clearly said in my post that I wasn't saying that He specifically referred to His return in John 5:28-29. Right? Did you not see that somehow? My point is that what He described in John 5:28-29 is something that will occur when He returns. We know that because of what is taught in other scripture which talks about the dead being resurrected when He returns.

I think John 5:28-29 is what will happen in the era generally referred to as the end times on this present earth.

Compare these two passages.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I think John 5:28-29 is what will happen in the era generally referred to as the end times on this present earth.

Compare these two passages.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Those passages indicate that dead unbelievers will be bodily resurrected at the same hour as dead believers. And we know that dead believers will be resurrected when Jesus returns (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17). So, that means the hour that Jesus said is coming when all of the dead will be bodily resurrected (John 5:28-29) is the same hour that He will return, which is not yet known (Matt 24:36, Matt 25:13).

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[Strong in Him]

Did you even read my post?

Did you read mine?
You said;

Jesus said a time is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29). We all know that the dead in Christ will be resurrected when He returns, so the hour He was talking about has to be the hour of His return since the dead in Christ will not be resurrected at any other time

You sentence which starts, "we know that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected ....." is reading something into the text that is not there.
Jesus said, firstly; "the time is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man", John 5:25. Then he said, "a time is coming when all who are in their graves .......", John 5:28.
He says, "the dead", not "the dead in Christ", and he doesn't mention when this time will be.
The people who heard him say that would not have known what he was referring to - it's only we, who live after the resurrection and have the benefit of other NT teaching, who can say, "the hour that the dead will be raised is at Christ's 2nd coming, therefore he MUST be talking about that."

I also pointed out that people in their graves were raised at Christ's crucifixion.

We know that because of what is taught in other scripture which talks about the dead being resurrected when He returns.

Yes, WE know that.
The Jewish leaders who heard Jesus say that those in their graves would hear the voice of the Son of Man, didn't.
Again, we have the benefit of later NT teaching. Those who heard Jesus' words could not look into the NT - the Jewish leaders had no idea that he was going to be killed, raised again and that his followers would continue to teach his words.
If they had thought Jesus' words about resurrection referred to future judgement, their idea would have been the OT idea of the day of the Lord - a day when their Messiah would come, bring in the Kingdom of God reward Israel for being God's chosen people and destroy all God's enemies.

 

[Aldebaran]

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Did you read mine?
You said;

You sentence which starts, "we know that all the dead in Christ will be resurrected ....." is reading something into the text that is not there.
Jesus said, firstly; "the time is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of Man", John 5:25. Then he said, "a time is coming when all who are in their graves .......", John 5:28.
He says, "the dead", not "the dead in Christ", and he doesn't mention when this time will be.
The people who heard him say that would not have known what he was referring to - it's only we, who live after the resurrection and have the benefit of other NT teaching, who can say, "the hour that the dead will be raised is at Christ's 2nd coming, therefore he MUST be talking about that."

LOL. What you said in your last sentence is the point I'm making. I have no idea how you are missing that even after I have explained that TWICE now.

I also pointed out that people in their graves were raised at Christ's crucifixion.

Not unto bodily immortality and eternal life. And no unbelievers were resurrected at that time. That has a different context than passages like John 5:28-29 and Daniel 12:2.

Yes, WE know that.

Exactly. That's my point. We know that now because of having all of scripture. We know that John 5:28-29 relates to Christ's return because that is when the dead will be resurrected according to other scripture.

The Jewish leaders who heard Jesus say that those in their graves would hear the voice of the Son of Man, didn't.
Again, we have the benefit of later NT teaching.

Exactly. That is what I have been saying as well. I can't imagine that you have been reading my posts very carefully if you did not even catch that I was saying exactly that. I clarified TWICE that I was NOT saying that Jesus specifically mentioned His return in John 5:28-29, but because of other scripture, we know that He was talking about something that will happen at His return (the resurrection of the dead), as evidenced by passages like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Those who heard Jesus' words could not look into the NT - the Jewish leaders had no idea that he was going to be killed, raised again and that his followers would continue to teach his words.

I'm not saying otherwise. Address what I say instead of anything you imagine me to be saying.

 

[Douggg]

Those passages indicate that dead unbelievers will be bodily resurrected at the same hour as dead believers.

Not at the same hour, but at the same part of this present earth's existence. Generally called the end times. The unsaved will be resurrected for the Great White Throne judgement.