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Question for preterism: When did this happen?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Houly, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Dunno. I take Revelation as almost wholly symbolic, and unlike the millions of folks who know with absolute certainly precisely what the Revelation means, I'm not all that sure. There's stuff in revelation that clearly has happened (I won't go into what points, since I've found that futurists always respond that historical fulfillments of prophecy either somehow didn't count or in fact never happened at all), stuff that IMO hasn't yet happened, and a lot of stuff that will never literally happen at all because it's symbolic.
     
  2. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):) :thumbsup:
     
  3. Houly

    Houly Member

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    When Christ does return and set up his kingdom, whether it's tomorrow or in ten thousand years, we won't look back and debate about whether or not it happened.
     
  4. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Indeed. But regarding Jesus returning tomorrow, that isn't possible because Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

    Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

    At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Regarding "in ten thousand years", Jesus may not wait that long, for Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hoses 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, that is, won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and second coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until seventy or eighty years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    This doesn't require that the second coming will occur right before, like one year, before that generation will pass: that is, 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the second coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last seven years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.
     
  5. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    The "sword" in Revelation 1:16 and Revelation 19:15,21 can be a literal, spiritual sword, like the one in Genesis 3:24. And at the same time it can also be symbolic of the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17), just as, for example, the fruitless fig tree that Jesus cursed was a literal tree which at the same time symbolized fruitless, unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:19,43).

    From the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the seven, literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century AD persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent second coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some two thousand years is like the passing of only two days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some two thousand years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).
     
  6. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    That's right.

    Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

    Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

    Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the unsaved armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

    In Revelation 16:19, the "great city", which will be literally, topographically divided into 3 parts by a literal, future earthquake (Revelation 16:18), is the literal, earthly "great city" of Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified (Revelation 11:8, Luke 13:33).

    Revelation itself can be almost entirely literal because, as scripture, it's not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it wasn't written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (cf. 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (cf. Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.

    Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

    Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

    John's prophecies in the book of Revelation were originally sent to the first century AD church (Revelation chapters 1-3), which probably expected all of them to be fulfilled shortly thereafter (shortly from the viewpoint of men, not God). But when Revelation's future prophecies (Revelation 4:1b) in chapters 6 to 22 didn't happen right away, as the centuries passed the church began to pay less and less attention to Revelation. It's only in modern times that a significant portion of the church has become interested again in Revelation and the future fulfillment of chapters 6 to 22, so that in effect John is, through the enduring book of Revelation, "prophesying again" (Revelation 10:11), this time to the modern church, just as he prophesied originally to the early church.
     
  7. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    Didn't Jesus say the kingdom would NOT come with observatiin, and the kingdom of god is within them?

    Are you rejecting that fulfilled kingdom?

    When he said that every eye would see him, could that have been a contrasting statement against his previous appearing only to the 12 and some 500 disciples.

    These issues are another problem of the literal hermeneutic which minimizes the historical and conversational settings.

    Which of the churches in asia minor listed at the beginning of revelatiion are you a member of, hourly? Your reading a letter first addressed to another people at another time. It must be first understood from the perspective of the original addressees and recievers. That's why the issue of the date of writing is important.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  8. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):) Where you been? Seriously? Incarnation already occurred and His Kingdom is already set up. Don't you want to be in it now? :thumbsup:
     
  9. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    When one ignores the symbolism of scripture this is where you can get lost in understanding whats going on in this passage.

    We can gain this understanding through the Psalms and prophets where the symbolism cannot be missed.

    This is how to understand this passage.

    A clear tip to a reader that this is symbolism is simply to read the passage:

    A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

    To expect this to literally happen, after reading this passage is really ridiculous.

    Take ways that these three elements are used poetically (Psalms), and prophetically (prophets)...and you can arrive at an understanding.

    The two witnesses belong to God...how do they witness? They do it through the word of God...that's what's coming from the mouths of these witnessess.
    Try how Jeremiah said not declaring God's word affected him in Jeremiah 20:9:
    But if I say, “I will not remember Him Or speak anymore in His name,” Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire Shut up in my bones; And I am weary of holding it in, And I cannot endure it.


    How about Jeremiah 23:29?
    “Is not My word like fire?” declares the Lord, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

    This is how to arrive at the understanding...John is in a vision...and these are symbols in that vision...:thumbsup:

    So we have one third of mankind being affected by each. Now...let's take a look at Zechariah 13:7-9:
    7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate,”
    Declares the Lord of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.

    8 “It will come about in all the land,” Declares the Lord, “That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it.
    9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”



    You have to look to the Psalms and prophets to understand the passage.
     
  10. Manasseh_

    Manasseh_ not the evil king Manasseh

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    Christ did say that but who he was addressing is important in addition to some other facts

    Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
    Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. KJV

    it should be obvious that Christ was not telling the Pharisees that God's kingdom was within them

    the KJV is a mistranslation , the New KJV renders it in your midst other translations render it among you, the RSV also renders it in your midst

    and rightly said because the very king of this kingdom was standing there in front of them


    also the Pharisees' idea of Messiah coming was to form a great army and free them from Roman rule and tyranny this was the kind of "observation" they were looking for and we can't forget when asked by Pilate Christ told him that his kingdom was not of this world (present age including their generation)


    one more thing, if Christ meant with no observation at all then he would have contradicted himself when he told his apostles in his Olivet prophecy using the analogy of the greatest lightning bolt flashing all the way from east to west ,symbolic of the brightness of his glory, and then telling them that all the tribes of earth would see him come and would mourn, other prophecies show that when the beast and those who follow it prepare to fight Christ at his return but they and their great army are destroyed

    God's kingdom has not been established on earth yet

    writing to the chuches in Asia Minor is also to church eras not only to those present during John's generation

    Rev 3:10 Because you have kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the habitable world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

    Christ knew that those generations and many more would not experience the great tribulation at the very end time that he is describing in this verse again elsewhere described as the worst time of trouble for the whole world getting so intense to the point that God has to intervene or no flesh would be saved, ie, mankind would annihilate life off the planet............since this wasn't addressed to the historical church at Philadelphia who did not experience the great tribulation it is addressed to the church described as the Philadelphia era at the end times

     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Well, they had good reason to expect that didn't they?.....

    Revelation 3:3
    3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you [1st century church at Sardis] as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

    How many comings of Christ "as a thief" does scripture foretell??

    Here we have the Glorified Christ from Heaven promising his thief's coming would befall real air breathing, blood pumping human beings alive in the 1st century.

    Was The Glorified Christ mistaken when He promised this event would befall those actual people?
     
  12. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):) ....ie, first his Incarnation then "3" more Comings??? I have enough trouble understanding just his "1" Return. :confused: ie, as a thief and I had better be ready for that "1" Coming as a thief with you. :thumbsup:
     
  13. Notrash

    Notrash Senior Member

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    That would be the signs of his coming, not the establishment of the kingdom. His coming helped remove the mosaic covenant through the roman armies. It was from the east to the west as they camped on the east of Jerusalem and their march was known throughout judea and Rome. This removal gave the approval of the kingdom of grace and truth to his saints as Dan 7 prophesied.


    If you believe that, you'll not seek to advance the present kingdom of peace and life through Him and justification by faith.


    Perhaps the principles are continual, but I believe he was referring to remaining extant from ritualistic religions such as was in Rome and from Judaism. Those principles continue, and even apply to ritualistic Christianity. But I believe, that by now, we should have advanced and established the truths and principles he established in his incarnation and through the second nature of his coming through the romans; and I believe they would be further along and impacting more people if not for perspectives which 'push off' the kingdom while they themselves do not enter in, such as your presenting.
     
  14. Houly

    Houly Member

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    I think the kingdom described in Revelation (and throughout the OT) is still to come. And I believe that our sin is forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ. We are to strive towards righteousness (mainly love and forgiveness) and repent when we fall short. The actual kingdom in which Jesus Christ reigns on the earth for 1,000 years is still to come.
     
  15. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):) Rev.1:6, "and he made us a Kingdom,...." in the future??? :confused: Where Christ is and rules with his power and grace there he produces his Kingdom, ie, this moment![:thumbsup:/B]
     
  16. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Maybe more to the point of the early church: "us to be a kingdom" is the early Christians in contrast to Israel and its kingdom which was about to be shaken or burned, depending on which parable you read about it, for being the 'unfaithful wife who rode the beast' of Rev 17. The term for the woman is closer to an adulteress as defined by OT law than to prostitute. As you know, there are quite a few prophecies in which Israel is refered to as such.
     
  17. Houly

    Houly Member

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    War, famine, disease. 40 million abortions each year. This isn't His kingdom.
     
  18. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Ha ha! You speak truth! God's will is seen in His kingdom: heaven. Streets paved with gold, no tears, awesome peace, NO WARS.

    It is plain His will is not done on earth - that is why we are suppose to be praying that His will be done on earth.

    It is clear, at the 7th trumpet in Revelation, the kingdoms of this world FINALLY become the kingdoms of our Lord. Hallelujah!

    But He does not take possession until chapter 19.

    Lamad
     
  19. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Revelation 3:3 was addressed to the literal, first century AD local church congregation in the city of Sardis (Revelation 3:1), in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) regarding Jesus visiting that congregation spiritually (not physically) in judgment if it didn't repent. Compare 1 Corinthians 5:3, where the apostle Paul said that he had judged someone in a congregation by his spiritual presence, despite his being absent from that congregation physically. Revelation 2:5 and Revelation 2:16 can be understood in this same, spiritual sense, with regard to the literal, local church congregations in Ephesus and Pergamos.

    Regarding the similar Revelation 2:25, it didn't require that Jesus would ever actually come physically before the first-century AD members of the literal, local church congregation in Thyatira died off, just as, for example, Matthew 5:18 didn't require that heaven and earth had to pass away before Jesus abolished the letter of the Old Covenant law, which he did on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-27, Hebrews 10:9b). Also, the first century AD city of Thyatira still exists today as a thriving city in Turkey, where Christians still live. So Revelation 2:25 can include an encouragement to Christians living in that city still today to keep the faith until Jesus' physical, second coming, whether they die before it actually happens or not.
     
  20. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    The time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.
     
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