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Question for preterism: When did this happen?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Houly, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Houly

    Houly Member

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    The following is an excerpt from a work by Charlie Campbell: The Book of Revelation.

    None of these Revelation judgments were fulfilled in the first century (or any time since).

    [snip]

    These judgments, talked about in the Book of Revelation, describe…

    A. The turning of a 1/3 of the sea into blood.
    B. The death of a third of all sea life.
    C. A third of the world’s ships being destroyed.

    Revelation 8:8-9
    Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

    D. The most devastating earthquake that has ever taken place.

    Revelation 16:18-19
    "…there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell."

    E. An event that will wipe out 25 percent of the earth’s population.

    Revelation 6:8

    F. Three plagues that will wipe out one third of the remaining population.

    Revelation 9:18

    G. Two witnesses.

    Revelation 11:5-6
    "two witnesses…[who] will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth” [in Jerusalem, who will be able to destroy their enemies with fire (Rev. 11:5) and who will be able] “to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire."
    John goes on to say that these two witnesses will be killed, only to be resurrected and carried up to heaven in the sight of their enemies (in Rev. 11:12).
    There is no record that anything of the sort happened in the first century.

    [/snip]
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
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  2. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Many times 'ges' is simply the land of Israel in the NT. By contrast 'kosmos' is used for the whole world, or for heaven and earth together, or 'ktiseos.' Or in the case of Mt 24:29+ some other global expression like 'the four winds.'

    It can also be the 'known world' as in earlier in Mt 24. The gospel had to be preached to the known world, and Paul said it was twice; Col 1, I Tim 2; and that was part of his belief that the return was still very, very close.
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It needs to have literally happened?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. Houly

    Houly Member

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    These are the 8 leading translations on Bible Hub:

    New International Version (©2011)
    A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.

    New Living Translation (©2007)
    One-third of all the people on earth were killed by these three plagues--by the fire and smoke and burning sulfur that came from the mouths of the horses.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which proceeded out of their mouths.

    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
    A third of the human race was killed by these three plagues--by the fire, the smoke, and the sulfur that came from their mouths.

    International Standard Version (©2012)
    By these three plagues—the fire, the smoke, and the sulfur that came out of their mouths—one-third of humanity was killed.

    NET Bible (©2006)
    A third of humanity was killed by these three plagues, that is, by the fire, the smoke, and the sulfur that came out of their mouths.
     
  5. dysert

    dysert Member

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    Sure. Why not?
     
  6. Bible2

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    Indeed.

    For Revelation is almost entirely literal, because it's unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

    Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

    --

    The weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, and the subsequent army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", when in fact they could both have evolved (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). They won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

    Because the weird horse-like beings will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from this planet, such as on the far side of this planet's moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

    The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet, for 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).
     
  7. Bible2

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    Great question.

    For the world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

    At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the unsaved armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

    At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).
     
  8. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Being unsealed is about the worst reason I can imagine for taking Rev literally. You find out what kind of literature it is by comparing it to others from the period. How is it like or different from Romans? How is it like or different from Josephus? How is it like or different from 'the War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness'? And you find it out is most like the last.

    Someone here is always talking about 6-21 like it was a blueprint. Well, calling all literalists, I have some news. When you get to Babylon, you have a big fat symbol on your hands. It is not one city, nor none of them. I get the point, but not literally. I'm still working on that type of algebra that computes how 1/3 of a symbol dies or collapses!

    If you are not going to read other lit from the period, get out of the business.

    re chronology. "Prophesy again" means it starts over, among other things.

    Calling all literalists: where are the kabillions of cavalry today? they better start getting ready to be literal.
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    This is the typical nosense language of unbelief. If you want to understand the Revelation, compare it to Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zechariah, to name a few.

    The key to the Bible is the Bible.

    Other that the meaning of ancient words or the identification of ancient names, if my understanding of any part of the Bible depends on anything outside its pages, I probably don't understand it at all.
     
  10. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):) :thumbsup:
     
  11. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Exactly. They're all talking about a final tribulation and the ensuing kingdom of Christ. It won't be a debatable "maybe it already happened."

    "Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him."
    (Revelation 1:7)
     
  12. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    There is some apocalyptic in those prophets. But if we were to follow how they are used by the NT, and carry it over to Rev, we would not be so literal about Rev.

    No I am not an unbeliever. Whatever was promised to the fathers has been fulfilled by God raising Jesus from the dead, Acts 13. I hope you believe!

    The last point does need addressing regardless. No, there is no such word as kabillion. the point is modern military is not going the direction of cavalry, if you've been noticing. Droids and drones, but not mounties. Trouble with freeways, I've heard.
     
  13. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    Houly, interesting that you would quote Zech 12, because the other NT quotes all show that this piercing and morning was meant about the event itself. In the sense of I Cor 2:8 or 1 Tim 3:16--seen, sensed by the whole world at the time.

    I don't know of any NT place in ordinary language about the day of God's wrath that has all the Judaic details. The day of wrath is communicated just fine without them, and does not "take place" on earth anyway, because it affects all mankind ever, Acts 17:31 , Rom 5:9.
     
  14. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    For the same reason that Moby Dick isn't a journalistic biography of a sailor named Ahab. The narrative and language points to a much larger meaning beyond the literal; not unlike apocalyptic language.

    I'm not saying the Apocalypse can't contain things that are literal, I'm just saying that the plain, ordinary reading of the text would tell us that the default position is non-literal. Unless, of course, one believes in purple hydras and chimeric locusts.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  15. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    It hasn't. Any further questions?

    BTW, only orthodox preterists are allowed to post here. We're not the ones who believe that all the Scriptural prophecies have been fulfilled.
     
  16. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    So our Lord will really be going around with a sword sticking out of His mouth? Really? And the flying scorpions? And the lion-headed snake-tailed fire breathing horses? And how about when St.John says those things were happen soon, and that the time was at hand, zat literal too?

    And I could be Czar of All The Russias. But that ain't the way to bet.

    Oh boy, aliens again. Futurists do dearly love them some aliens.

    Just been layin' low all that time, huh?

    Or maybe Cleveland.

    One would think.

    Reckon?

    Or they could have been freeze dried and vacuum packed, and stored in back of the pantry where they've gone unnoticed for thousands of years.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  17. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    No, it's unbelief in nonsense. Futurists seem to specialize in taking stuff that ought to be seen literally as symbolic or just wrong (Daniel's 490 years or John's "time is at hand", for instance.) and taking stuff that is clearly symbolic (like our Lord with a sword sticking out of His mouth and fire-breathing lion-headed snake-tailed "horses", ) literally. That is, to my thinking, amazingly weird.
     
  18. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Do you expect it to happen?
     
  19. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Ah ha, that's what they want you to believe! When the proper time comes, the Bad Guys will unveil their secret weapon, and stage the greatest cavalry charge since Ypres, sweeping all before them!

    Ah, so you think that they be chewed up by artillery and aircraft at the first chokepoint, right? Silly person! These magic mounts are immune to explosives, even of the nuclear or enhanced radiation variety. Neither they nor the troopers who ride them require provender of any kind, either. After all, what good is Magic Cavalry (or perhaps more properly Dragoons) if it has to be fed and tended like any other livestock or any other soldiers.

    Nemmind the logistics of moving a force like that from where ever they're supposed to be coming from to Israel, it'll all be taken care of. The supplies will be moved by magic trucks or air dropped from magic airplanes on magic parachutes.

    Literalists may want to examine how literal they want to be along about now. <Laugh>
     
  20. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    :):) OR "maybe its happening" right now. :D

     
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