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Question for preterism: When did this happen?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Houly, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    No Bible2...the NT NO WHERE speaks of a temple that is not the church except in cases where it's obvious Herod's temple is still standing...like in the gospels.

    The temple was God's dwelling in the OT and in the NT after Christ sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost the church became God's dwelling, His temple.

    Christ put an end to sacrifice and offering NO NEED WHATSOEVER for a 3rd temple. Hebrews makes that very clear.
     
  2. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Actually, it does. For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

    Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

    But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

    At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

    Indeed (Hebrews 10). But the ultra-Orthodox Jews could still build a 3rd temple out of their own misguided zeal for the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which they don't believe has been abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6). Also, a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24) claiming to speak for God could be the one who will command them to build the 3rd temple.
     
  3. Houly

    Houly Member

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    I updated the original post.

    It's now an excerpt from a work by Charlie Campbell: The Book of Revelation.

    It's a list of seven judgment events prophesied in Revelation that were definitely not fulfilled in the first century (or any time since).
     
  4. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    When I took my license exams in college, they warned us NEVER choose the multiple choice answers that said "definitely!"
     
  5. Houly

    Houly Member

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    "The turning of a 1/3 of the sea into blood" has definitely not happened.
    "The death of a third of all sea life" has definitely not happened.
    Same for the rest, but they will all be fulfilled at some point.
     
  6. usexpat97

    usexpat97 kewlness

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    Not so fast....
     
  7. Houly

    Houly Member

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    Ok. This is the verse we're looking at:

    The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Revelation 8:8)
     
  8. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Understand prophetic symbolism:

    Symbol: SEA or WATERS

    Interpretation: A multitude or a nation of people.

    Old Testament References:

    ISAIAH 5:30 "And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea."
    The parties involved here are the Assyrian armies "roaring" against the Hebrews. In this symbol, the great number and strength of the Assyrian soldiers are compared to the waves of the stormy sea.
    ISAIAH 8:7 "The Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many."
    These WATERS are symbolic of a warlike nation that would sweep over Judah like flood waters. The next phrase (vss. 7-8) tell us who it is:
    "...even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go all over his banks: And he shall pass through Judah..."
    ISAIAH 18:12 "Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!"
    This passage concerning Israel's enemies shows plainly how the terms SEAS and WATERS are used symbolically or figuratively to represent nations and multitudes.
    JEREMIAH 51:42 "The sea is come up upon Babylon: she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof."
    What was this sea that would cover Babylon? Was it the literal ocean waters? No, this was the "sea" of the armies of the Medes as we read in verse 28. In verse 25, another symbol is used that gives the image of Babylon becoming a "burnt mountain." Utterly different images, both meaning the same thing: the destruction of the Babylonian nation by God, through the use of the Medes.

    New Testament References:


    REVELATION 4:6 "...before the throne, there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal...."[NIV]
    The throne was Gods, and this sea was (and is) the sea of his own people, the faithful Christian believers. The sea is pictured as being like glass - that is, it was smooth and not turbulent. Gods people are given true peace.
    REVELATION 8:8 "...something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood." [NIV]
    The "huge mountain was a symbol for the Roman empire, and when that empire was "thrown into the sea," it simply signifies that God was causing the Roman army to come into conflict with the peoples of Palestine, who were the SEA here. That this was an action of war is indicated by the imagery of the SEA (the people involved) turning into blood.
    REVELATION 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." [NIV]
    After the old Jewish Law had been fulfilled, and the faithful remnant, the Christian believers, had been secured, then the old unbelieving nation of Judaism was utterly destroyed in the war. The Jewish nation ceased to exist as it did in Biblical times. The SEA of the Jewish peoples "was no longer."
     
  9. Houly

    Houly Member

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    That doesn't mean every time the word "sea" is used it refers to a multitude of people. Sometimes "sea" means the actual sea.

    Consider that John was prophesying a literal object ("something like a huge mountain all ablaze") being thrown into the actual sea, killing a third of all actual sea creatures and destroying a third of all actual ships. How could he have explained it any more clearly than this:

    Something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. (Revelation 8:8)
     
  10. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    That's right.

    Regarding the 2nd trumpet, Revelation 8:8a could refer to the collapse into the ocean of an erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Revelation 8:8b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Revelation 8:9a could refer to 1/3 of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. Revelation 8:9b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami caused by the volcano's collapse into the ocean. This tsunami could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

    If such a tsunami occurs, it could cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

    After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b). Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).
     
  11. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    It is interesting to note that Titus was not slain, nor was his soldiers, as he went on to be emporer of Rome.

    The end of the age will be such that all who come against her [Jerusalem] will be slain.

    3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day," says the Lord, "I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness...

    5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, 'The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.' 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place--Jerusalem.


    10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

    Zechariah 12


    3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

    6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:3-7


    This is what Matthew 24 is describing, The Day of the Lord.


    JLB
     
  12. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    The Law was fulfilled at the cross.

    The New Covenant began at the cross.

    The old covenant ended at the cross, being fulfilled.

    There is no symbolism in Luke 21, or Matthew 24 until Jesus says, now here the parable.

    20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."


    Verses 20 describe the destruction of "The city and sanctuary", which was literal.

    The following verses are literal as well.

    Men's heart don't fail because of symbolic events.


    In verse 29 Jesus tells everyone that he is now shifting to a parable. The reason He does this is because everything He has said before this is literal.


    29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.


    Sorry, Preterism is not sound, nor does it employ sound interpretation techniques to understand what the scriptures say.


    JLB
     
  13. tulipbee

    tulipbee Worker of the Hive

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    That was a tough book to read but it got easier to understand it cause almost everything was referring to the Old Testament. In other words, in the book, they were able to back their claims with Old Testament quotes.

    The new end times theories backed their claims on today's events which doesn't help much
     
  14. coraline

    coraline Active Member

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    Of course "sea," mountains & other words have literal meanings. When God led them through the "sea" we understand that that is the literal Red sea.
    Same for not worshiping on "this mountain or in Jerusalem" as Jesus depicted (sorry, i do not have the v. & must get ready for work)
    That's a literal mountain reference Jesus was literally on. Just like the Mt of Olives is literal point of reference. They can also have spiritual references too. We know Mt Zion has both.

    But the symbolic interpretation of "sea" in its context in Revelation is not the literal "sea"

    Just as Jesus has a sword coming out of His mouth in Rev.19- it is symbolic of ruling the nations by means of the gospel of the kingdom.


    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    (Heb.4:12)
     
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