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Question for preterism: When did this happen?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Houly, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    Christians are kings and priests now (Revelation 1:6; 1 Peter 2:9), and are in the kingdom's spiritual aspect now (Romans 14:17). But they aren't yet in the kingdom's physical aspect (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) which will exist on the earth during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Amen.

    Presently the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). In the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21) and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).

    Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his second coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' second coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
     
  2. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    That's right.

    The 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus, but to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

    Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately.) The only part of Revelation 11:18 that will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

    So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the entire tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

    Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the first vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly an android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

    At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

    Everyone not resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for some 2,000 years.
     
  3. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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  4. Manasseh_

    Manasseh_ not the evil king Manasseh

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    you're attempting to separate his coming from the establishment of his kingdom when in fact this is the reason for his return to take his inheritance that the Father gives him

    Psa_110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    this prophecy and promise was referred to a number of times in both testaments.........it's obvious Christ still has enemies.........the appointed time of when God begins to vanquish Christ's enemies is held only in his knowledge , ie, no man knows the day and hour of his return and the establishment of his kingdom , receiving his inheritance.........

    a number of other prophecies foretell many great things when this establishment begins........they shall beat their swords into p[SIZE=3]lowshares.....ie.......no reso[SIZE=3]urces will be used up by any nation to support armies and weapons......they won't be learning war any longer, instead resou[SIZE=3]rces will[SIZE=3] be given to farm im[SIZE=3]plements to grow food and feed people and there will be peace throughout the whole world, this is just one example of do[SIZE=3]zens of event[SIZE=3]s to occur when[SIZE=3] G[SIZE=3]od's kingdom (go[SIZE=3]vernment) comes to earth and begins rule here[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]



    1Co_15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

    at this time while I'm a mortal I can only seek to enter into this government of God through faith in Christ again at the appointed time when it is established on earth by God

    this is further proof that God's kingdom has not yet been established on earth although a servant of God , the servant cannot enter into this kingdom until the change come from mortal to immortal

    now if you want to also claim you're already immortal then we can see how long you'll stand in f[SIZE=3]ro[SIZE=3]nt of an oncoming train before you jump to safety, I'm not saying this in sarcasm but [SIZE=3]rather to prove a point.........that preterism is an escapist doctrine similiar to pret[SIZE=3]rib and both tend to always spiritualize away prophecy...........but pro[SIZE=3]phecy is simply foretelling [SIZE=3]history in advance, e[SIZE=3]vents must occur and[SIZE=3] if they don[SIZE=3]'t the prophecy fails..............these fa[SIZE=3]lse doctrines either ignore, at[SIZE=3]tempt to change the p[SIZE=3]ro[SIZE=3]phecy[SIZE=3]'s intended meaning or spiritua[SIZE=3]lize it [SIZE=3]away but most important their lies[SIZE=3] (doct[SIZE=3]rines) aren't even part of the world of reality

    [SIZE=3]God claims [SIZE=3]the power to foret[SIZE=3]ell[SIZE=3] e[SIZE=3]vents in advance an he promises tha[SIZE=3] what he foretell[SIZE=3]s he will perform

    [SIZE=3]Isa 48:3 I have foretold the former things from the beginning; and they went out of My mouth; and I made them hear; I acted suddenly;
    and they came abou[SIZE=3][SIZE=3]t
    [/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

    Isa 46:9 Remember former things from forever; for I am God, and no other is God, even none like Me,
    Isa 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;
     
  5. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    re God revealing things
    Well, then why is it that so many Bible prophecy experts don't pay attention to the non-mystery (no longer mystery) of Eph 3, Col 1, Rom 16: that God was always intent on a mission to the nations to save them; the mystery was how it could happen apart from the Law. Jack Kelly says involvement with the nations was somehting of a detour, distraction, interruption! Yeah, right, Jack.
     
  6. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    THis is a great historical presentation. However, Pastor Preston does say he is full preterist, and I don't know any details, or why he thinks that way; but it does not affect what is said here. It stands alone and stands just fine. ​

    THe segment on the 'woman' will rock you, most of you. It starts about 25 or 30 mins in.​
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2013
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Correct

    Except that Scripture never teaches that Christ's comes "as a thief" multiple times.

    Compare These:


    1. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
    2. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
    3. 2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
    4. Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
    5. Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

    Everyone knows about Christ's teaching that he would come as a "thief in the night" (Jesus gives this teaching in Matthew 24:43). That coming came upon the first-century Church of Sardis in Revelation 3:1-3. It is clear that Christ's coming as a thief to the Church of Sardis was to violently remove many of them from the Church while vindicating the worthy ones there (Rev 3:1-5). This same thief-in-the-night coming was also promised to come upon the enemies of the Thessalonians; yet it would not violently overtake the Thessalonians themselves (1 Thess 5:2-9). For the early Thessalonian Church, the Day of the Lord brought about the much-expected glorification of Christ in His Church (2 Thess 1:10), the cessation of their contemporary persecution (2 Thess 1:6-7), and the continuation of their lampstand (presumably, from Rev 2:5). To the Church at Thyatira, Christ's coming meant the destruction of their false prophetess, "Jezebel," and her followers that were teaching against the decree of the Jerusalem council (compare Rev 2:20-21 to Acts 15:28-29). While Jesus promised them that these all would be killed or thrown into great tribulation, the faithful ones at Thyatira were to simply hold fast to what they had until Christ came to them to grant participation in his reign (Rev 2:24-25). For Pergamum, the coming of Christ primarily removed the Nicolaitans from destroying the Church ( Rev 2;14-16). All this, of course, necessarily places Christ's one and only coming "as a thief" in the first century.

     
  8. Interplanner

    Interplanner Newbie

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    both the DofJ and the return are warned of, that their arrival would be thievous to certain naive or skeptical people
     
  9. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Ha ha ha! This reminds of of a scripture:

    Matthew 15:14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

    Has anyone in the world seen Jesus come as described in Rev. 19? Were the combined armies of ten nations there to meet Him and become toast?

    Just basic common sense tells us MOST of the events in Revelation have not happened and are therefore still future.

    For the readers, just hang onto your hat, for it will not be long and these events starting the the 6th seal will come to pass. Lamad
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    Mat. 21
    33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
    40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
    41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
    42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
    ‘The stone which the builders rejected
    Has become the chief cornerstone.
    This was the Lord’s doing,
    And it is marvelous in our eyes’?[j]

    43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
    45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.

    God waited for a few years to see if Israel would accept Him. They did not, so God turned to the Gentiles.

    Lamad
     
  11. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

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    That's right, with regard to Christ coming physically "as a thief" multiple times.

    The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's physical second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' physical second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his physical second coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    And after the thousand years, the Gog and Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least seven more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' physical second coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a thousand-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

    In Revelation 16:15, Jesus is encouraging and warning those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12, near the end of the future tribulation), still waiting for his physical coming as a thief, to hang on just a little longer until his physical 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, right after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:3). Revelation 16:15 could be the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12.

    Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' physical 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

    It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' physical 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' physical 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

    Some Thessalonian Christians could still be alive at both the (as yet unfulfilled) falling away (apostasy) (2 Thessalonians 2:3) and the subsequent physical second coming of Jesus (2 Thessalonians 1:7), for today many Christians are still living in Thessalonica, a major city in Greece.

    Even though Jesus' physical second coming hasn't happened yet, and the persecution of Christians on the earth hasn't ended yet, 2 Thessalonians 1:6 was fulfilled by any suffering which God brought on the first century AD Thessalonians' persecutors while they were still alive, and was and still is being fulfilled by their suffering after they died, in the ongoing torment of Hades (Luke 16:23), if they never repented and got saved.

    2 Thessalonians 1:7 also was true even though the physical second coming hasn't happened yet, and the persecution of Christians hasn't ended yet. For 2 Thessalonians 1:7 meant that if the Thessalonian Christians didn't die before the physical second coming, at that time they would rest from being persecuted. Regarding the first century AD Thessalonian Christians whom Paul was originally addressing, 2 Thessalonians 1:7 didn't mean that none of them, or even not all of them, would die before the physical second coming. For they all did die, without the physical second coming happening, and without the persecution of Christians ending. The physical second coming didn't happen in 70 AD, just as the persecution of Christians in Thessalonica and elsewhere in the world didn't end in 70 AD.

    The physical second coming will happen, and the persecution of Christians will end, only when Jesus is physically "revealed from heaven with his mighty angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7) and is seen by everyone (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 1:7), and he descends bodily from heaven on a white horse and brings temporal judgment against the people throughout the world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11-21) "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8). The returned Jesus will then reign physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    If the first century AD Thessalonian Christians whom Paul was originally addressing had believed the mistaken idea that 2 Thessalonians 1:7 meant that none of them would die before the physical second coming, this could have led to a rank superstition among them, exemplified in the (not historical) story of:

    THE MAGIC TALISMAN

    On the night that Paul's letter was first read to the Thessalonian Christians, they took special delight in what 2 Thessalonians 1:7 said, mistakenly thinking that it meant that none of them would die before Jesus' physical second coming. But later that same night, in the wee hours, a very aged member of the congregation died in his sleep. As word of this spread the next day, it caused a great uproar within the congregation: "How can this be? How can Old Tychicus have died after we received Paul's promise that none of us would die?"

    The church was called together that night to discuss the issue. The bishop stood up and said: "Let us lift up our voices to God and ask him in prayer how this can have happened". But before they could pray, a young man stood up in the back and said: "I know how it happened. Old Tychicus' house is the farthest away from this church building, in which we're keeping Paul's letter. So Old Tychicus must have been just outside the range of the magical power of the promise written in Paul's letter. What we need to do, to make sure that none of us suffers Old Tychicus' fate, is to copy Paul's promise onto little pieces of parchment and hang them around our necks, so that the magical power of the written promise can be with us at all times, no matter where we are. Then none of us can die before Jesus' physical second coming".

    The congregation agreed to this idea. But, because it was already late, the congregation was unable that night to purchase blank parchment to make the little talismans with. So everyone went home. (That same night, it so happened that a woman in the congregation named Anna conceived twins within her womb.) The next day, the parchment was purchased, the talismans were made, and everyone received one that night in church. But then, only two weeks later, someone else in the congregation died, and then another died only a month after that, and then another died a couple of months after that. But after each of these people died, the congregation was able to come up with an explanation for how his or her death wasn't because of a failure of the talisman, but because of a failure by the person who died. For example, it was said that one of them died because she took off the talisman to bathe, and another must have died because he didn't have enough faith in the power of the talisman.

    Later, some nine months after Paul's letter was first read to the congregation, Anna gave birth to beautiful twin girls. A few days later, she brought them to church to receive their talismans, just as other infants had been brought who had been born after Paul's letter was first read to the congregation. But when she asked for the talismans, she was refused: "We're sorry, dear, but we can't give talismans to your girls. The midwives assure us that your girls were most likely conceived two days after Paul's letter was first read to the congregation. And the promise in Paul's letter applies only to those in the congregation who were alive at the exact moment that the promise was first read to the congregation".

    "What are you talking about?", said Anna. "That letter has been read again many times to us since then. Why, it was read again to us just last week."

    "We're sorry, dear. It doesn't work like that. The promise applies to only those alive the first time it's read."

    "But then my babies are unprotected! They can die before Jesus' physical second coming! Oh, my precious little babies are going to die!"

    Anna began sobbing uncontrollably, and as people gathered around her to commiserate with her over her unprotected babies, a wise old man named Apollos stood up and addressed the entire congregation with a firm voice: "I realize now what a gross, paganish superstition we have all fallen into. Surely Paul's promise applies to these precious little ones no less than it applies to any of us. And if it can apply to these, conceived two days after the promise was first read to us, then it can apply to those conceived two years after, or two thousand years after. The length of time doesn't matter. And it's the same with regard to our dying. If Old Tychicus and the others could die after the promise was first read to us, then any of us, even all of us alive today, could die before Jesus' physical second coming. Clearly, we have misunderstood the promise. It must simply mean that if we are still alive at his physical second coming -- and by 'we' I include not only us alive today, but any Thessalonian Christians born in the future -- if we as individuals are still alive at his physical second coming, at that time we will rest from being persecuted".

    The people in the congregation were dumbstruck when they heard this, and they all felt ashamed. As Apollos took the talisman off his neck, one by one so did all the rest of the congregation. They put all the talismans in a little box which contained Paul's letter. And then they all kneeled down and prayed together for God to forgive them for their paganish error, which he did. And after that, they lived full lives and had many children, who grew up and had children, who grew up and had children, and so on, so that there are still Thessalonian Christians alive today, in the city of Thessalonica in Greece. And they're still waiting patiently for Jesus' physical second coming (2 Peter 3:8-9) and the end of the persecution of Christians (2 Timothy 3:12).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 15, 2013
  12. shturt678

    shturt678 Senior Veteran

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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2013
  13. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    If the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are the same event, then most of it was fulfilled up the destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple in AD 70.

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/#post64050465
    How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled [Poll thread]





    .
     
  14. Bible2

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    Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

    Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd-temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple-complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

    Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd-temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
     
  15. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    :)
    Perhaps that is the one Jesus wanted left standing as evidence of the prophecied destruction of Jerusalem in the Gospels and Revelation :idea:

    http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/#post64056218
    How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled


    http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923/#post64056218
    DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AD 70

    Luke 19:43
    `Because days shall come upon thee, and thine enemies shall cast around thee a rampart, and compass thee round, and press thee on every side,
    Luke 19:44
    and lay thee low, and thy children within thee, and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone,
    because thou didst not know the time of thy inspection.'


    Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.

    There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection. Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged. The robbers and seditious were all punished with death : the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome. After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.



    [​IMG]





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  16. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    There are those who think the walls were part of the temple. The "Wailing Wall" is not and has never been the temple proper! To even thinks so is erroneous.

    There was the wall that surrounded Jerusalem, and another wall to surround the temple...but that wall is NOT the temple itself...it protected the temple as this model of the temple shows:

    [​IMG]

    This smaller view shows the potion called the "Wailing Wall" that is left...notice where the temple is:

    [​IMG]

    The "Wailing" Wall is not part of the temple...and never has been!!!
     
  17. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    So?

    That is the Jew's concerning, not Christians..............

    Western Wall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Western Wall, Wailing Wall or Kotel (Hebrew: ][​IMG]הַכֹּתֶל הַמַּעֲרָ(help·info)[/font], translit.: HaKotel HaMa'aravi; Ashkenazic pronunciation: Kosel; Arabic: [FONT=Amiri,sans-serif]حائط البراق‎[/FONT], translit.: Ḥā'iṭ Al-Burāq, translat.: The Buraq Wall) is located in the Old City of Jerusalem at the foot of the western side of the Temple Mount. It is a remnant of the ancient wall that surrounded the Jewish Temple's courtyard, and is arguably the most sacred site recognized by the Jewish faith outside of the Temple Mount itself. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, commonly believed to have been constructed around 19 BCE by Herod the Great, but recent excavations indicate that the works were not finished during Herod's lifetime



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  18. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

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    That's the very point I'm making! What does a temple matter? It is of NO significance.

    Some Christian think the temple was not completely destroyed as Christ said because the Wailing Wall still stands.

    Then...you have Christians thinking a 3rd temple is going to mean something to God when the church is the temple of God. That's a major teaching of a lot of prophecy today...and it is erroneous.
     
  19. Jipsah

    Jipsah Blood Drinker

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    Especially since those breeding lion-headed snake-tailed fire breathing mounts are scarcer than hen's teeth. They're gonna need 200,000,000 of the critters right shortly.

    Of course, B2 reckons that somebody has a few hundred million of them stashed in a cave somewhere...:thumbsup:
     
  20. Bible2

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    While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

    For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

    ~

    One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

    Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they've already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

    Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

    "God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

    Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.
     
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