• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.

Featured Putting events in Revelation in chronological order?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Douggg, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    Revelation Chapter 2 Through Revelation Chapter 3 -concerned- the things to happen soon ie[ a judgment of God ] upon the 7 Churches in existence in the time of John ....

    In Revelation 4 it is said that John will be shown the things who will come thereafter ...which cover the period of time since Jesus have ascended to Heaven until His Coming mentioned to happen at the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19....and beyond ---after His Coming ---->the 1,000 years Revelation 20...

    Revelation 6
    We see that Seal 1 To Seal 5 correspond with what is described in Matthew 24
    Seal 1- The Conquest of the Gospel upon the world [still in action]
    Seal 2-The WARS who continue to plague humanity [still in action]
    Seal 3-The FAMINES who plague humanity-------------[still in action]
    Seal 4-1/4 of the surface of the Earth affected by a War [WW1 and WW2]main event of the 20 TH Century
    Seal 5 -The early Christians Martyrs to whom it was said that other of their brethren will join them [Still in action]

    Obviously the 6 Th Seal have not been opened YET...only in John vision of the things to come we have a glimpse of what will happen at the 6th seal ....
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  2. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +782
    Christian
    Married
    1. Do you believe in a future great tribulation,Matthew 24:21?

    2. Do You believe in a future literal human "Man Of Sin" 2 Thessalonians 2:3

    3. Do you believe in a literal return of Jesus Christ in the clouds, Matthew 24:29-31?

    4. Do you believe in a future literal bodily resurrection of the believer, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54

    5. Do you believe in a future lake of fire, Revelation 20:11-15?

    6. Do you believe in a future eternal kingdom, Revelation 21 & 22?
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  3. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +631
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    No. The great tribulation occurred under Emperor Vespasian. His son Titus led the Roman army to surround Jerusalem from 66-70AD. This was a horrible period for Jerusalem and led to the slaughter of over a million Jews and the destruction of the temple followed by the dispersion of the Jews.

    No. The man of sin Paul refers to was Emperor Nero who began a great persecution of the church and also banished John to Patmos where he wrote Revelation. Nero also martyred Peter and Paul.

    No. Not as you refer to it in the above passage. The term "Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory" is an apocalyptic term and refers to Christ coming in judgement of Jerusalem. It was used by the Prophet Isaiah at Isaiah 19:1 as he prophesied the judgement of Egypt. Christ return to judge the world is recorded in Matthew 25:31-46.

    Yes. It is also in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, erroneously called a “pretrib rapture” when all it is a condensed version of the resurrection.

    Yes. However, I do not believe it is actually a literal “lake of fire”. Jesus describes the final sentence many ways like being cast into outer darkness, or eternal fire, or eternal punishment. I think they are metaphors describing hell but we have no real idea how bad it is or what it looks like.

    Yes. However, I also believe the eternal kingdom already is. The Lord’s Prayer tells us this and directs us to pray “YOUR kingdom come, YOUR will be done ON EARTH, as IT IS in heaven”. Christ will certainly bring the kingdom to earth as New Jerusalem…but it already is in heaven. Galatians 4:26 and Hebrews 12:22-24
     
  4. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +782
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for the response, your "Partial Preterist" in your eschatology.

    I disagree with your views of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 Abomination Of Desolation/ Antichrist as "Nero"

    Matthew 24:21 great tribulation.

    Matthew 24:29-31 you disregard second advent seen, and pass this off as a symbolic judgment of Israel.

    The reason why this is symbolically interpreted, is to allow for 70AD fulfillment "Falsely"

    Conclusion: Matthew 24:29-31 is the second advent, and resurrection that takes place.

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those day's"

    "They shall see the Son Of Man coming in the clouds"

    This event is exactly the same as 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Same Jesus, Angel, Trump, Cloud, Resurrection in Gathering.

    How can you have 70AD fulfillment of the Great Tribulation, and a future second advent, taking place " immediately after the tribulation of those days"?

    You Can't!

    You have chosen 70AD fulfillment, and disregarded the second advent seen, pushing it aside in symbolic allegory.

    If you recognise this scriptural truth, your 70AD fulfillment is "Gone", because the second advent is a future event, just as the abomination of desolation- man of sin, and Great Tribulation are.

    "Immediately After The Tribulation Of Those Days"

    "They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming In The Clouds"

    You believe?

    A Literal Army Of Rome "Vespasian" Great Tribulation?

    A Literal Roman Emperor "Nero", Man Of Sin?

    A Symbolic Jesus Coming In The Clouds?

    A Symbolic World Watching?

    Just another case of disregarding the clear teaching of scripture in symbolic allegory, to make ones System/Belief work.

    Thanks For The Response, We Disagree.

    Jesus Christ Is Lord

    Truth7t7
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  5. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +782
    Christian
    Married
    You claim "Nero" imprisoned John, do you have Early Writings to support this claim?

    My study finds John was imprisioned under Emperor Domitian's Reign 81-96AD, a common historical teaching as attested to by Church father Iranaeus of Lyon 130-202AD

    Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXX, prgh 3

    "That Was Seen No Very Long Since, But Almost In Our Day, Towards The End Of Domitian's Reign"

    This is established Church history, quoted by many church fathers, and scholars today.

    Thanks for the response!

    Truth7t7
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  6. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +631
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    I think if you wish to walk through these things it's best to deal with them one at a time to keep these post shorter. I'm happy to deal with it that way.

    I do stand with the partial preterist model of eschatology. I was taught dispensational eschatology when I was converted to Christ back in the late 80's. However, more than that I labor for the truth of scripture. I'm striving to be faithful to God's word, rather than anyone's eschatology.

    The first thing doubtful is you know as well as I do Iranaeus' statement is quite ambiguous as to what it means. It is NOT "established church history" It is part of a long debate as to the dating of Revelation.

    Stand on your own feet Truth7t7...be honest and present the fact that you stand with the 95 AD late date.

    I stand convinced of the early date of Revelation as around 66 AD or later. I find the strongest argument to be if Revelation was written in 95 AD, why would John leave out the 70 AD destruction of the temple and exile of the Jews.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  7. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Newbie

    +782
    Christian
    Married

    I was part of the dispy crowd for 20 years, pre-trib not in scripture, I search for truth also.

    I stand convinced with many others of the latter date of 95-96AD on Revelations writing.

    You must follow the early date, to make your "Partial Preterist" 70AD fulfillment system work, because Revelation 11:2 is your Roman Destruction Of Jerusalem.

    You deny the "Second Advent" is seen in Matthew 24:29-31, when the complete chapter is dedicated to this event.

    Your teaching chooses 70AD fulfillment of the Great Tribulation Matthew 24:21 over the clear teaching of the "Second Advent" in Matthew 24:29-31

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"

    "They shall see the Son Of Man coming"

    Your "Partial Preterist" interpretation cant have both events, you choose 70AD fulfillment.

    A teaching in error in my opinion, as the Great Tribulation, and Second Advent are future events.

    There is no need to discuss the "Partial Preterist" interpretation, it is destroyed by Matthew 24:29-31 alone, put the date of Revelation at 95-96AD, its obliterated
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2018
  8. ebedmelech

    ebedmelech My dog Micah in the pic Supporter

    +631
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Constitution
    Interesting...and yet when Jesus walked this earth preaching the word, the religious leaders opposed Him. Many expected Him to conquer the Romans as Messiah. Just goes to show what is popular is not always right.


    Actually no. Just reading scripture in light of scripture will not permit the 95-96 AD date to work.


    I deny no such thing. That is NOT a second advent. If you read carefully Jesus said in verse 30 "and then THE SIGN of the Son of Man appearing in the sky..." It is a SIGN not a physical appearance. Furthermore to read the passage as if Jesus is speaking to you is faulty reasoning. Jesus is speaking to Peter, James, John, and Andrew, we know this from Mark 13:3. This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem when read correctly.
    So are we to neglect Luke 21:25-28? This is the same thing, only Luke is writing to Gentiles and it comes much clearer. Then Jesus goes on to say "THIS GENERATION", which cannot mean us in our time.
    Not when one reads the text properly. Once again Jesus is speaking to Peter, James, John, and Andrew. He consistently uses the pronoun "you"...so how is that us in our time?
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,844
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Okay everyone has had a chance to have their say. So now I will have mine.

    (1) the timeframes in Revelation are expressed differently for a reason, and that (2) the like timeframe expressions go together.

    The 1260 days in Revelation 11:3 and 12:6 go together.

    The 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and Revelation 13:5 go together.

    The time, times, half times in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 12:14 go together

    That's how you can start to piece together the events on a timeline. The worse thing a person can do is start equating the different time expressions as exact equivalents of each other, such as equating the 42 months as being the 1260 days.
     
  10. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +122
    Christian
    Married
    Seems plausible, probable even.

    But if you go with this, which I think you should, then you should also go with a deliberately ambiguous understanding of Daniel 9:27 where what is often translated as 'middle of the 7' should be translated as 'half of the 7'. Daniel 9:27 Interlinear: And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

    that would accommodate this understanding you are putting forward. That way, it is referring to the 1st half as well as the 2nd half. In other words, it can be applied to what you are saying: 42 months, then 1260 months (which is not necessarily one time period exactly after the other - it could be such that there is a 75 day gap, 5 month gap between these 2 timeframes. )

    The 'time, times, and half time' is a generic term that would apply to both 42 months OR the 1260 day time period. Just like 'beast from the 'abyss' is a generic term for 'beast from the SEA' and 'EARTH' (the 1st half or 2nd half)

    Like I've been trying to say for a while: prophecy is a repeated pattern/ fractal so as to conform to the 'strong delusion' which is Satan's imitation of prophecy.
     
  11. tranquil

    tranquil Newbie

    +122
    Christian
    Married
    We will see if this assumption is correct very shortly:

    the 42 months (which is the timeframe mentioned 1st) would be from 24 Sh'vat 5778 (our Feb. 9, 2018) to 24 Tammuz 5781 (our July 4, 2021 which is the middle of 70 '7's/ 245 years from July 4, 1776). The result of that war occurring on July 4, 2021 is that Israel finds its messiah who confirms the Mosaic covenant on dusk Sept 15/ day of Sept 16, 2021 Day of Atonement/ Yom Kippur.

    that's why there is a 75 day gap between dusk July 3, 2021 (Bible days go from dusk to dusk, so it is the same day as July 4th) and Yom Kippur 2021 Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results
    thus the 2nd covenant starts at yom kippur 2021 and goes to Feb 27, 2021
    1260 days later.
    Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results

    again, there's 2 covenants: Declaration of Independence gets broken, then the Mosaic covenant starts and is broken 1260 days later
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  12. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,844
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I don't put dates on a calendar for any of the following. But this is the framework of the 7 year timeline....................once the 7 years begin.

    The two witnesses' 1260 days on the timeline is tied to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 which takes place before the war in heaven. After the war in heaven is the time, times, half times.

    Which would put the 1260 days in the first half of the 7 years.
    And the time, times, half times in the second half of the 7 years.

    ________________________________________________________

    The 42 months of the Gentiles treading Jerusalem for 42 months is tied to the 42 months that the beast rules in Revelation 13:5 without being impeded by the two witnesses who will be gone from the earth.

    __________________________________________________________

    The time, times, half times in Daniel 12:7 is tied to Revelation 12:14 when Satan will be cast down, having great wrath, who persecutes the remanent of the woman for the time, times, half times.

    Which also the time, times, half times of Daniel 7:25 is tied to that same period of Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 12:14.
     
  13. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    The 1,260 days of the 2 witnesses will begin at the FIRST TRUMPET and will end when they will be killed by the Beast who ascended out of the Bottomless pit [Revelation 11:7] near the end of the second woe events associated with the 6 th trumpet.

    -The killing of the 2 witnesses will reveal who is the Beast that cometh out of the Bottomless Pit that the whole world shall wonder mentioned in Revelation 17:8 ....the AC/Angel Abaddon[Revelation 9:11].

    These are the 1,260 days of their testimony...the FIRST HALF of the Tribulation from the FIRST TRUMPET though the end of the 6 TH TRUMPET EVENTS who end when they will ascend to Heaven.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,844
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    You are building on the wrong foundation, Riberra.

    Revelation 12 provides the pure clarified foundation for everything to be placed on the 7 year timeline. There are no trumpets, no seals, no vials in Revelation 12.

    1260 days the first half. The time, times, half times nominally the second half. Separated by the war in heaven (the second heaven). Pure and simple.
    ___________________________________________________________________________


    The two witnesses' 1260 days on the timeline is tied to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 which takes place before the war in heaven. After the war in heaven is the time, times, half times.

    Which would put the 1260 days in the first half of the 7 years.
    And the time, times, half times in the second half of the 7 years
     
  15. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    The 7 TH trumpet will begin the THIRD WOE EVENTS.....the last half of the tribulation.

    The third woe will include the woman that will flee in the wilderness .....just few moments before [Revelation 12:6.... that Satan will be cast out of Heaven mentioned in [Revelation 12:7]

    The group called the woman who will flee in the wilderness will do it because they will know that the killing of the two witnesses and their ascension to Heaven mark the end of the second woe ....that Satan will be Cast out of Heaven right after ...

    Here what will be the turning point and who is the group called the woman that will flee in the wilderness at the end of the second woe....see Revelation 11:13-14

    Revelation 11
    11 And after the three days and a half the breath of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them that beheld them.

    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they went up into heaven in the cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

    13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  16. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,844
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Riberra, go back to Revelation 11:1. Everything about the two witnesses - John is TOLD about by the two witnesses. John himself doesn't SEE anything regarding the two witnesses.

    Chapter 11 and the two witnesses has nothing to do with the 6th trumpet. Unlike in Chapter 9,
    the 6th trumpet, the second woe, John actually sees for himself in the vision of 1/3 mankind being killed.

    17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

    The sixth trumpet, the second woe, ends in chapter 9. It does not leap frog chapter 10, to include what the angel talks about the two witnesses. The two witness are not announced by any trumpet. for them to be a woe, or part of a woe.

    Chapter 11 is a follow up to John eating the little book in chapter 10.

    After the angel is finished presenting John about the two witnesses, by telling John about them - John hears the seventh trumpet sound. John has been told in Revelation 8 that the last three trumpets announce the three woes. So since he has just seen the second woe in Chapter 9, he knows because of the sounding of the third trumpet, he is going to be presented the third woe quickly. Which he does see in the Revelation 12 vision of Satan being cast down to earth. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,844
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Happy birthday, Riberra !
     
  18. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks !
     
  19. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

    +590
    Christian
    Married
    What you forget to take into account is that there is a period of time associated with each woes.

    The first woe Revelation 9:1-12 [5th Trumpet]will have a period of time of 5 months.

    The Second Woe Revelation 9:13-21[6Th trumpet ]when 1/3 of humanity will be killed by the strange horses like creature will last until that the two witnesses will be killed and will ascend to Heaven mentioned in Revelation 11:7-14....

    Then

    the third woe associated to the 7 TH TRUMPET will begin quickly ----> Which he does see in Revelation 12 vision of Satan being cast down to earth. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth.....-the woman fleeing in the wilderness- ...-the 42 months reign of the Beast empowered by Satan Revelation 13...-
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

    +1,844
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Nothing to do with the second woe. The second woe ends in Revelation 9.

    Try this just for clarity....

    Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
     
Loading...