Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[W2L]

No you don't decide, Christ does. The same Church that teaches the doctrine of purgatory is also the one that brought you the New Testament through the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority given to it by Christ Jesus. The Bible did not fall out of the sky. Well, at least you accept what the Church declares to be the inspired inerrant Word of God.

I follow what the Lord puts in my heart.

 

[tonialvarez]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

I say you are right!
Catholics place "sacred traditions" above "sacred scriptures.
It is not biblical, it is a satanic religion that will take its followers to hell.

Purgatory debunked:
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment"

One of many verses that destroy the Catholic definition of saints:
Acts 9:32 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda."

 

[Kenny'sID]

No you don't decide, Christ does. The same Church that teaches the doctrine of purgatory is also the one that brought you the New Testament through the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority given to it by Christ Jesus.

Then why doesn't that very same New Testament "clearly" verify the purgatory that "same church" claims?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Follow Jesus.

He never will lead anyone to believe in prgtry. No, not ever.

He said not to take things from pagan religions. When someone did/ does/ they sin and they are deceived.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then why doesn't that very same New Testament "clearly" verify the purgatory that "same church" claims?

It's a lot more deception than just prgtry.

It wasn't just one, nor two, nor three things only.

Since they accept and accept non-biblical , pagan, sources,
they
opened the door to a flood of errors, and continue to permit them.

They did not stop , nor prevent, nor get clean from the errors.

They won't, apparently , even be able to. More and more they keep erring, sinning, promoting indulgences proven ungodly,
promote prgtry proven pagan,
and so on,
instead of even trying to be free of those errors. No correction accepted, none sought -
just 'believe the errors are okay' they say - that's our job, to acccept the errors as truth,
and forget the truth!

 

[Tim Rohr]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

 

[Brian Sellers]

I say you are right!
Catholics place "sacred traditions" above "sacred scriptures.
It is not biblical, it is a satanic religion that will take its followers to hell.

Purgatory debunked:
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment"

One of many verses that destroy the Catholic definition of saints:
Acts 9:32 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda."

There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.
Let’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great says: “From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4, 39).

I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife. First, the Greek word for “age,” aion, is used in reference to life after death in Mark 10:30, when Jesus speaks of eternal life as a reward in the “age to come” for those who give up temporal things for his sake. This doesn’t mean Jesus is teaching purgatory is eternal, since he teaches souls who are there can get out by having their sins forgiven, but he is asserting this state of being exists in the afterlife.

Aion can be used to refer to a distinct period of time in this life, as in Matthew 28:20 when Jesus says he’ll be with his apostles until the end of the “age.” But I think the context suggests it’s being used for the afterlife. Just a few verses later (v. 36) Jesus speaks of the “day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after death.

So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or purified.

This state can’t be heaven, since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t be hell, since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.

The second Bible passage where Jesus teaches the reality of purgatory is Matthew 5:25-26:

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus makes it clear that the offender has to pay for his sins. But the question is, “Is Jesus referring to a place of repayment in this life or the next?” I argue the next.

The first clue is the Greek word for “prison,” which is phulake. St. Peter uses this Greek word in 1 Peter 3:19 when he describes the prison in which the Old Testament righteous souls were kept before Jesus’ ascension and that which Jesus visited during the separation of his soul and body in death. Since phulake was used for a holding place in the afterlife in the Christian tradition, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that’s how Matthew is using it in Matthew 5:25, especially when one considers the context, which constitutes our second clue.

That "satanic religion" gave you Sacred Scripture through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is a historical fact. Falsely accusing your neighbor is a sin. “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20). Notice Christ’s command restricts the Christian evangelist to teaching only what Christ revealed and not his own opinions. Whether it is on the issue of purgatory or the requirement of baptism or some other issue, there are a lot of churches violating this commandment. The Church is very careful to ensure that its teachings as explained in the catechism do not violate the command given by Christ.

 

[tonialvarez]

The same Church that teaches the doctrine of purgatory is also the one that brought you the New Testament through the power of the Holy Spirit

Really??
You mean the Alexandrian corrupt manuscripts? The ones that are used to write corrupt bibles from Alexandria Egypt?

Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Futhermore; if God promised to preserve His words, why do they keep changing from bible edition to bible edition??
What the Catholic Church brought us is a corrupt bible that has to keep changing because they are not God's true words, but the devil's words.

God promised to preserve His words and has done that in the King James Bible. The Catholic church hates the King James bible and would never promote it or use it because it hates God's true words.

 

[PollyJetix]

.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Let me use Vicomte's explanation here for a moment. The poster said "let Jesus do the explaining", (see quote at bottom of post) but do you see the twist there? The scripture was cited, but the poster did the explaining? Red flag.

Now let's move on to a specific. In the explanation quoted at the bottom, not the scripture, but the explanation, it states what Christ said, as in:

"And his master was angry, and delivered him to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

But then the explanation followed:

"Purgatory" is simply the Latin word for that place or state of punishment for that purpose.
"Gehenna" is the Hebrew word.

Why, in the parable, does Purgatory suddenly replace what we have always before known as THE place of "torture" or punishment... Hell? Why did they choose Purgatory over what most of us still believe without a second thought, belongs there...Hell? What reason was there to replace Hell with Purgatory?

It may be the Latin word for state of punishment but Hell is still the place of punishment. And Gehenna is the Hebrew word for state of punishment "for that purpose"? Really? I'd need to see that clearly written, with no twists or tricks. Can any of you do that? Or answer the question, why Purgatory and why not Hell, the normal and usual place of punishment in the explanation? which BTW, and once again, is not what Jesus said.

Ok. It doesn't require much effort. I'll just let Jesus do the explaining.

"And his master was angry, and delivered him to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

Does everybody die having forgiven everybody who has sinned against him? Not hardly. And if a man dies having not forgiven everyone everything, his own sins are not wholly forgiven either. Jesus' heavenly Father will deliver him to be punished UNTIL the entire debt is paid.

"Purgatory" is simply the Latin word for that place or state of punishment for that purpose.
"Gehenna" is the Hebrew word.

This is why prayers for the dead are effective.

 

[Brian Sellers]

I say you are right!
Catholics place "sacred traditions" above "sacred scriptures.
It is not biblical, it is a satanic religion that will take its followers to hell.

Purgatory debunked:
Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment"

One of many verses that destroy the Catholic definition of saints:
Acts 9:32 "And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda."

There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.
Let’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great says: “From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4, 39).

I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife. First, the Greek word for “age,” aion, is used in reference to life after death in Mark 10:30, when Jesus speaks of eternal life as a reward in the “age to come” for those who give up temporal things for his sake. This doesn’t mean Jesus is teaching purgatory is eternal, since he teaches souls who are there can get out by having their sins forgiven, but he is asserting this state of being exists in the afterlife.

Aion can be used to refer to a distinct period of time in this life, as in Matthew 28:20 when Jesus says he’ll be with his apostles until the end of the “age.” But I think the context suggests it’s being used for the afterlife. Just a few verses later (v. 36) Jesus speaks of the “day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after death.

So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or purified.

This state can’t be heaven, since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t be hell, since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.

The second Bible passage where Jesus teaches the reality of purgatory is Matthew 5:25-26:

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus makes it clear that the offender has to pay for his sins. But the question is, “Is Jesus referring to a place of repayment in this life or the next?” I argue the next.

The first clue is the Greek word for “prison,” which is phulake. St. Peter uses this Greek word in 1 Peter 3:19 when he describes the prison in which the Old Testament righteous souls were kept before Jesus’ ascension and that which Jesus visited during the separation of his soul and body in death. Since phulake was used for a holding place in the afterlife in the Christian tradition, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that’s how Matthew is using it in Matthew 5:25, especially when one considers the context, which constitutes our second clue.

That "satanic religion" gave you Sacred Scripture through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is a historical fact. Falsely accusing your neighbor is a sin. “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20). Notice Christ’s command restricts the Christian evangelist to teaching only what Christ revealed and not his own opinions. Whether it is on the issue of purgatory or the requirement of baptism or some other issue, there are a lot of churches violating this commandment. The Church is very careful to ensure that its teachings as explained in the catechism do not violate the command given by Christ.

Really??
You mean the Alexandrian corrupt manuscripts? The ones that are used to write corrupt bibles from Alexandria Egypt?

Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."
Futhermore; if God promised to preserve His words, why do they keep changing from bible edition to bible edition??
What the Catholic Church brought us is a corrupt bible that has to keep changing because they are not God's true words, but the devil's words.

God promised to preserve His words and has done that in the King James Bible. The Catholic church hates the King James bible and would never promote it or use it because it hates God's true words.

So you are saying God did not preserve His Word 1600 years until He dropped the KJV out of the sky in 1611?

 

[Tony Trout]

I agree purgatory is a lie ironically even know some catholics who consider it to be nonsense.

There's absolutely NOTHING true about there being a place called purgatory. It's another man-made idea. When you pass from this life, your soul simply either goes to Heaven or Hell depending on whether you know Christ as your Savior.

Little Colton Burpo reported that there are many pets and animals in heaven.

Wasn't it proven that Colton Burpo's story was made up? I seem to remember that being a bit of a big thing in the news when it was revealed.....

 

[Kenny'sID]

notice Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the age to come, whatever that age may be.

Forgive me, but I'm a little lost here, would you please post the scripture where Jesus "implies" that?

 

[Tony Trout]

Someone delete this post, please?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Someone should weep with tears and crying,
for saying Jesus taught anything from pagan sources ... (prgtry),
since it contradicts so many Scriptures,

then taking 2 or 3 Scriptures out of context, along with using the pagan sources,

to try to prove something directly opposed to Jesus Way of Salvation:
CHRIST CRUCIFIED ! for our sake
CHRIST CRUCIFIED ! for our sins
CHRIST'S BLOOD SHED to cleanse us of all sin.

Then to try to say , ooops, YHWH made a boo boo - not enough to pay for sin !
To try to say , ooops, YHWH didn't plan ahead, we better help Him ...

or even worse - don't worry if you don't repent as Jesus says,
we figured out a "back door" around God's Judgment ! We can get you in over the wall ,

not through the door, (not through Jesus! ! ) ,

you just have to pay us enough and we will take care of it !

 

[Brian Sellers]

The Original KJV published in 1611 includes the books that Protestants refer to as the Apocrypha. These apocryphal books were positioned between the Old and New Testament (it also contained maps and geneologies). The apocrypha was a part of the KJV for 274 years until being removed in 1885 A.D. A portion of these books were called deuterocanonical books by some entities, such as the Catholic church.

Many claim the apocrypha should never have been included in the first place, raising doubt about its validity and believing it was not God-inspired (for instance, a reference about magic seems inconsistent with the rest of the Bible: Tobit chapter 6, verses 5-8). Others, Catholics and Protestants believe it is valid and that it should never have been removed- that it was considered part of the Bible for nearly 2,000 years before it was recently removed a little more than 100 years ago. Some say it was removed because of not finding the books in the original Hebrew manuscripts. Others claim it wasn't removed by the church, but by printers to cut costs in distributing Bibles in the United States. Both sides tend to cite the same verses that warn against adding or subtracting from the Bible: Revelation 22:18. The word 'apocrypha' means 'hidden.' Fragments of Dead Sea Scrolls dating back to before 70 A.D. contained parts of the apocrypha books in Hebrew, including Sirach and Tobit [source].

1-MACCABEES CHAPTER 1 KJV

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, in other words, the catholics were tricked into adding or keeping books that no one else accepts ,
just like adding and keeping pagan concepts that no one
else accepts.

God never says to study, learn or keep what is not from Him, never.

To accept things from heathen religion, false teachings and pagan ways,
is wrong.

 

[Greg Merrill]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

I like what Hebrews 1:3 says about Jesus. "...when he had by himself purged our sins,..." He doesn't need us to spend time in the purgatory that doesn't exist. He purged our sins all by Himself. 2Pe 3:9 says "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins." Our sins have already been purged. No blood is said to be shed in Purgatory, yet Heb 9:22 says "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (forgiveness)."

 

[Brian Sellers]

Someone should weep with tears and crying,
for saying Jesus taught anything from pagan sources ... (prgtry),
since it contradicts so many Scriptures,

then taking 2 or 3 Scriptures out of context, along with using the pagan sources,

to try to prove something directly opposed to Jesus Way of Salvation:
CHRIST CRUCIFIED ! for our sake
CHRIST CRUCIFIED ! for our sins
CHRIST'S BLOOD SHED to cleanse us of all sin.

Then to try to say , ooops, YHWH made a boo boo - not enough to pay for sin !
To try to say , ooops, YHWH didn't plan ahead, we better help Him ...

or even worse - don't worry if you don't repent as Jesus says,
we figured out a "back door" around God's Judgment ! We can get you in over the wall ,

not through the door, (not through Jesus! ! ) ,

you just have to pay us enough and we will take care of it !

purgatory is not a second chance or a "back door" And I have provided Biblical quotes and explanations for the Church's teaching on purgatory. No pagan sources. Yet those who disagree with me call me names and accuse me of at best of being pagan, and at worst of belonging to a "satanic religion."

 

[Vicomte13]

Let me use Vicomte's explanation here for a moment. The poster said "let Jesus do the explaining", (see quote at bottom of post) but do you see the twist there? The scripture was cited, but the poster did the explaining? Red flag.

Now let's move on to a specific. In the explanation quoted at the bottom, not the scripture, but the explanation, it states what Christ said, as in:

"And his master was angry, and delivered him to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

But then the explanation followed:

"Purgatory" is simply the Latin word for that place or state of punishment for that purpose.
"Gehenna" is the Hebrew word.

Why does Purgatory suddenly replace what we have always before known as THE place of punishment, or Hell in Jesus's parable? Why did they choose Purgatory over what most of us still believe without a second thought, belongs there? What reason was there to replace Hell with Purgatory?

It may be the Latin word for state of punishment but Hell is still the place of punishment. And Gehenna is the Hebrew word for state of punishment "for that purpose"? Really? I'd need to see that clearly written, with no twists or tricks. Can any of you do that? Or answer the question, why Purgatory and why not Hell, the normal and usual place of punishment in the explanation? which BTW, and once again, is not what Jesus said.

You missed the word that Jesus used: UNTIL. UNTIL is not a synonym for "forever". Your tradition of Christian "Hell" is forever. But Jesus' "until the last penny is paid" is not forever. It is UNTIL - temporal - limited. And that is why Gehenna, the prison where this happens, is Purgatory, and not your Hell, because Hell is forever, but Purgatory is "until". And that "until" makes all the difference.