Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[Kenny'sID]

I've read quite a bit of baseless claims, accusations and unsubstantiated opinions

Will you name them?

 

[Mountainmike]

Well written

It should also be stated that all of the early church , until the reformation, even orthodox, believed in a process of purgation, even if orthodox say far less about the how it occurs, just as they say less about Eucharist manifests real presence,

Discounting purgation is a recent phenomenon, when reformationists empowered a priesthood of believers to make up their own version of doctrine from scripture, ignoring history, authority and tradition, - so ignoring the scriptural teaching authority of the true church.

I've read quite a bit of baseless claims, accusations and unsubstantiated opinions on this thread. Very sad really. Explains why we have over 30,000 Christian denominations claiming to have the truth. For those who are interested civil discourse, whether you agree or disagree with my views, I'll entertain any thoughtful questions and remarks to the best of my ability. "But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully." 1 Peter 3:15

First, purgatory is not a second chance to enter heaven. Second, purgatory is based on Sacred Scripture though you may disagree with the interpretation. Third, the doctrine of purgatory has been around since the beginning of the Church. The Early Church Fathers studied, debated and prayed about it before forming and teaching their beliefs. You may disagree with them if you choose, but the point is that the doctrine of purgatory is not an invention of the medieval Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).


The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven. You may disagree with the concept of mortal and venial sins and temporal punishment; however, simply ask yourself this question: At this moment have you been sanctified? That is perfected. Made Holy as Christ is Holy. If the answer is no but you have been saved, then if you were to die you would still need to be sanctified or purged of all stain as a result of sin because “Nothing impure will ever enter it (heaven.) Rev. 21:27. All those who enter purgatory will enter heaven. Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean."

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last penny" (Luke 12:59).

The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture. This is true, yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. This passage has been regarded by many of the Apostolic Fathers and theologians as evidence for the existence of an intermediate state in which the waste of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

I know some will argue that Scripture reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man.

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13) Clearly Paul is indicating a spiritual growth which takes place over time. I am closer to God now than I was 10 years ago, and by His Grace I will one day be in His presence.

There is no contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. You cannot argue that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).

The necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

I think purgatory is a process by where we learn of all the graces and blessings God gave us and we come to know our life and ourselves as God does, not just intellectually as though learning from a book, but spiritually, as only God can reveal the truth.
"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. For now we see through a glass, dimly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[PollyJetix]

2 Timothy 1:16-18 King James Version (KJV)

“The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well”.

All the commentaries I have read about this passage indicate that Paul’s friend is dead. The passage itself (2 Timothy 1:16-18) seems to be written in the context of a funeral. Paul is praying for the family of the deceased (just as we do today), and he is also praying for his dead friend. Question! Why is Paul praying for a dead person? See the parallel verse below.

2 Timothy 1:16-18 says absolutely nothing about purgatory. There is actually no proof at all that Onesiphorus was dead. And even if he was dead, this is not the prayer for one who was suffering in purgatory. And the word translated "mercy" in verse 18, ought to be translated "favor." Which puts a whole different light on it.

2 Samuel 1:12King James Version (KJV)

“And they mourned, and wept, and fasted until evening, for Saul, and for Jonathan his son, and for the people of the Lord, and for the house of Israel; because they were fallen by the sword”.

Fasting is a form of prayer and penance. Question! Why is David doing penance for the dead?
Why is Paul praying for the dead?

This is a huge leap of logic. No, I can't even call it logic. It's illogical.

Fasting is not "a form of prayer and penance."
Fasting is an expression of extreme sorrow. (It could be sorrow for sin, or sorrow for something else.)
When David fasted for Saul, it was not in prayer for his soul. It was an expression of sorrow.

Fasting is not prayer. Fasting is not asking God for mercy, necessarily.
Fasting can simply be not eating, because of being upset, like King Darius, in Daniel 6:18.

Was King Darius praying to God when he 'fasted all night'? Hardly. He was just too upset to eat.
And the same applies to 2 Samuel 1:12.

 

[Vicomte13]

Please explain in detail how you conclude that from the parable.

Ok. It doesn't require much effort. I'll just let Jesus do the explaining.

"And his master was angry, and delivered him to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

Does everybody die having forgiven everybody who has sinned against him? Not hardly. And if a man dies having not forgiven everyone everything, his own sins are not wholly forgiven either. Jesus' heavenly Father will deliver him to be punished UNTIL the entire debt is paid.

"Purgatory" is simply the Latin word for that place or state of punishment for that purpose.
"Gehenna" is the Hebrew word.

This is why prayers for the dead are effective.

 

[PollyJetix]

Really? You are pursuing God as closely as you can?

Okay. Simple question. We just finished Lent and the week of our Lord's Passion. Did you Fast all during Lent and Passion Week? And by Fast, I don't mean you gave up Twinkies like the Catholics do. I mean the real Fast of the Early Fathers and Ascetics - no meat, no dairy, no eggs, for forty days, with a complete fast except water on Good Friday and Holy Saturday.

If you didn't, then your claim is invalid.

Jesus said for us not to fast before men, or else our fasting is in vain.
I don't have to report to you how much fasting I do. It would cheapen the holy time I spend with my Lord.

That said, I don't call giving up meat, dairy, and eggs for forty days, a fast.
That's not a fast. It's a diet. It's what modern soft American Christians call a "Daniel's fast."

Funny, how what we call a "fast" in western society, is what 1/3 of the world calls a feast.

Fasting is water only. Period.

 

[Mountainmike]

Well, he also created very intense pressure on the Church to reform itself or lose its constituency. The Church DID sell indulgences before Luther. Admonition really wasn't nearly enough. The Church was not in the slow process of reforming. It was ossified and rotting from the head. Luther's rebellion against the Church authorities, and the rapidity with which it spread and multiplied, is a testimony to just how rotten and unsatisying the Church had become by his time. A half-century before Huss had attempted a reform, followed by rebellion when he got nowhere, but the Church was able to successfully quell him and that movement (through mass murder). Those tactics were tried on Luther and his followers, but they failed spectacularly. Luther's rebellion inspired Calvin and the Anabaptists, and the Church finally faced the choice of reform or dissolution.

The Church chose reform, and we are all better for that today. So, while one might decry Luther's excesses, and those of the other Reformers, we have to nevertheless acknowledge that their rebellion DID force the Church to correct itself. If the Church behaved today as it did in the years just before Luther, if the Pope, for example, were the head of the Gambino crime family, we would all leave it. And if the Church were like it was then, it would try to kill us on the way out. The Counter-Reformation left the Church that was much, much better than it would have been without Luther and the Reformation.

None of this means that Martin Luther will ever be a candidate for sainthood. Still, we should acknowledge that, in the Providence of God, Luther's brave, bull-headed stance ultimately DID result in the reform of the Church, for the better.

So to say that Luther founded nothing but chaos is not really true. He did a service thqt somebody had to do, and we are better off that he came our way. 500 years is a long enough space that we can acknowledge that without a heresy trial. And we DO acknowledge it, if only subtly, each year on Reformation Sunday, when the choirs in Catholic Churches all over sing "A Mighty Fortress", with most folks not even reading the small print identifying who wrote it.

And Luther was quite right to attack paid indulgencies, which many of his theses attack, which indeed the pope spoke against a few years after his death at the next council. So it took decades for reform. The church had always been slow. Luther went about it the wrong way.

But his opening Pandora's box by throwing out all authority so allowing all to make up doctrine was indeed false teaching - a recipe for chaos. He toyed with changing scripture or kicking out parts he did not like ( epistle of straw) , so it reflected his doctrine not the other way round.

In the end it is a matter of belief.
Jesus promised us the " gates of hell would not prevail against his church" , so to believe without one man of dubious beliefs, tr church would not have survived, is my view overestimating luthers importance.

 

[Mountainmike]

Matthew 5:26

Well remembered!
I had forgotten about that one!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Luther was just one of hundreds or thousands of others,
perhaps more like tens of thousand, hundreds of thousands or millions,
who were set free by God's Grace in Jesus to find Salvation free of
the corruption of rome doctrines.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Considering the vast deception and false teachings Luther and the others exposed, from low to high in what they had personally been taught and had both seen and heard ,
it is no surprise that many others likewise had fallen prey to the deceptions , and not been set free from them.

 

[PollyJetix]

To me, the idea of purgatory represents the mercy of God.

Let's say you went through your whole life being a nominal Christian, not ever really putting God first, not striving to obey His commandments, doing the occasional "little" sin but nothing too serious, and assuming you would be saved in the end because you are basically a "good" person.

Then you die. What happens? Scripture says if you are lukewarm, God will spew you out of His mouth. Or maybe because you did believe in Jesus, even though you never really took Him very seriously, you will be accepted anyway because God is merciful. But if that were true, why would there be so many scary warnings in Scripture about people going to hell?

Maybe there's another option. Maybe after you die, you get a chance to learn the things you should have learned in life if you were paying attention. A second chance? Or maybe just going through remedial education.

There are plenty of people who think salvation is black or white, heaven or hell. If you don't get it right in this life, it's off with your head. But wouldn't a merciful God give us every opportunity to get it right?

After He died, Jesus went and preached to the souls in prison. Maybe He is still doing that?

I believe purgatory is a place of education, not punishment. It's painful because people in purgatory have an awareness that they could be fully in the presence of God, but they're not yet, they have to wait. It's not a matter of paying for sin, it's a matter of being ready to enter God's holy presence.

Judy... this is the horrible danger of the false doctrine of purgatory.
It gives people a false hope... that if they don't really love God, they can get into heaven after all, by doing a little suffering of their own, to supplement the suffering of Jesus.

The eternal destination of our souls is far too important to hinge on a "maybe" purgatory option.

God gives us every opportunity in this life that we need, to get it right.
God says, if you live after the flesh you shall die.
Not go to purgatory. Die.

And spiritual death means separation from God forever.

Purgatory is a false hope.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why not everyone set free ?
< shrugs >
Why so often in SCRIPTURE, GOD'S WORD,
so few were chosen,
so few were set apart (holy),
so few chose to obey God instead of idols ?
(out of all the nations, out of all the gentile pagan and heathen nations) .
Why so few find the narrow road to life ? (As Jesus says)

 

[Mountainmike]

Set free to disagree with each all other Protestants on doctrine you mean.


Tell me Jeff - when scripture says " the pillar and foundation of truth is the church"

Which church does it mean?
Clue.. it cannot have been any started reformation or later, with all their mix and match doctrine.

They didnt exist when it was said, they are a product. Of the false belief that all can interpret scripture,

Luther was just one of hundreds or thousands of others,
perhaps more like tens of thousand, hundreds of thousands or millions,
who were set free by God's Grace in Jesus to find Salvation free of
the corruption of rome doctrines.

 

[W2L]

Set free to disagree with each all other Protestants on doctrine you mean.


Tell me Jeff - when scripture says " the pillar and foundation of truth is the church"

Which church does it mean?
Clue.. it cannot have been any started reformation or later, with all their mix and match doctrine.

They didnt exist when it was said, they are a product. Of the false belief that all can interpret scripture,

It means any church that follows the truth. They are upholding truth.

 

[Brian Sellers]

It means any church that follows the truth. They are upholding truth.

All churches claim to uphold the truth. Who decides? Luther disagreed with the Church. Calvin disagreed with Luther, etc...when does it end?

 

[PollyJetix]

Ok. It doesn't require much effort. I'll just let Jesus do the explaining.

"And his master was angry, and delivered him to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

Does everybody die having forgiven everybody who has sinned against him? Not hardly. And if a man dies having not forgiven everyone everything, his own sins are not wholly forgiven either. Jesus' heavenly Father will deliver him to be punished UNTIL the entire debt is paid.

"Purgatory" is simply the Latin word for that place or state of punishment for that purpose.
"Gehenna" is the Hebrew word.

This is why prayers for the dead are effective.

Jesus said we will be forgiven according to how we have forgiven others.
Just because it's difficult to find someone who has forgiven everyone, does not mean Jesus didn't mean what he said. All it means, is that many will be sadly surprised on that day, to find out their sins weren't forgiven by God after all, even though they asked.

I have known people who have forgiven everyone else. My mother, for instance. She died 2 weeks ago, at age 92. And she held absolutely no grudges. She loved everyone equally. Even those who had hurt her the worst, she offered forgiveness to.

God holds me to this standard. I have often been rebuked by Him for not forgiving someone immediately. And when He rebukes me, I find I must forgive that person, or my communion with God will go dark. I cannot exist without the light of His fellowship.

God says if we do not forgive others, we ourselves will not be forgiven.
Period.

It's not that we can get around it by paying for our grudges, by going to purgatory for awhile.

It's not so much a punishment for not forgiving others... it's more of a consequence of closing the door of forgiveness and love in our heart, which swings both inward, and outward.

The door through which we offer forgiveness to others, is the same door through which we receive God's forgiveness. If we bar that door, by holding a grudge, then it not only closes us off from giving forgiveness, but also closes us off from receiving it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Ok. It doesn't require much effort. I'll just let Jesus do the explaining.

"And his master was angry, and delivered him to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt. So my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother or sister from your heart."

Does everybody die having forgiven everybody who has sinned against him? Not hardly. And if a man dies having not forgiven everyone everything, his own sins are not wholly forgiven either. Jesus' heavenly Father will deliver him to be punished UNTIL the entire debt is paid.

"Purgatory" is simply the Latin word for that place or state of punishment for that purpose.
"Gehenna" is the Hebrew word.

This is why prayers for the dead are effective.

All that tells me is if we don't forgive, we'll not be forgiven and have to pay for our sins in Hell, nothing more.

No idea how you all go that from the parable.

 

[W2L]

All churches claim to uphold the truth. Who decides? Luther disagreed with the Church. Calvin disagreed with Luther, etc...when does it end?

Im glad you asked. I decide for myself. I read scripture and follow it instead of church dogma.

 

[Brian Sellers]

"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Jesus established a visible church with authority. That's the only way this works. But we have rebelled, Protestant and Catholic alike, we ignore the authority with which Jesus ordained His Church and we pick and choose what we accept and what we reject. Many Churches have watered down what they teach in order to conform to the world lest weekly donations decline. Some churches teach against abortion in principle yet tolerate it in practice. The Body of Christ, the Church, is not of one mind and one spirit as the early Church was. Many "Christians" even disregard the Church claiming "I love Christ but not the Church." The Church has never been perfect, and sins by the leaders of the Church has never been grounds for rejecting the Church. Judas betrayed Jesus but by the Grace of God the Apostles did not abandon Peter or the Church which Jesus Christ founded. Moreover, the Church has and will falter, but according to the One who founded it, "the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

First and foremost to say that all "Christians" are as equally holy as the canonized Saints, or the current martyrs in the middle east (Martyrdom is instant Sainthood, if you die a martyr you bypass purgatory and go straight to Heaven), well I'm not going to explain to you why that view is wrong. Yes in a sense Christians that are baptized and in a state of grace are in a sense holy or saintly, which is why the bible uses the term, but even with Saint Paul you can clearly see a progression in his holiness and besides, surely no one is going to assume or claim that all the Christian in the early Church were saved, and if you that you are among the elect, THAT is anti-biblical.

Second you've just accused Saint Paul of being Anti-Christ:
"... rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ..."
Colossians 1:24 DRV (emphasis added)

Thirdly escaping eternal damnation through purgatory is not easy, Saint Leonard of Port Maurice, in his awesome sermon, The Little Number of Those Who are Saved, records that the soul of archdeacon, who went into the desert to do penance, appeared before his bishop and told him that he died on the same day that Saint Bernard died and that at the same moment that they died, sixty thousand other people died as well, and of all those souls, only the archdeacon and Saint Bernard went strait to Heaven, three souls went to Purgatory, and all the rest fell into hell. So Purgatory does not in anyway enable us to get away from God's justice rather, it is because God's justice and mercy that purgatory is an option for souls who would otherwise suffer eternity in hell, God will not tolerate anything impure (that is, not totally dedicated to Him) to enter His Kingdom.

I assume someone has already mentioned all the biblical passages that refer to purgatory, I'd like to mention that the Bible, particularly the New Testament is not a catechetical book, the audience of the New Testament already knows most of the Faith when the receive these books. That's why the first three Gospels don't emphasize Jesus Divinity, the audience already knows that Jesus is the Son of God. It's only later, when one of Saint John's disciples, a man named Cerinthus, goes off the rails and starts teaching that Jesus was a man possessed by the gnostic god, Logos, in order to save us from the material world, that John has to write his Gospel to set the record straight about what Jesus meant when He said He was the Son of God.

 

[Brian Sellers]

No you don't decide, Christ does. The same Church that teaches the doctrine of purgatory is also the one that brought you the New Testament through the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority given to it by Christ Jesus. The Bible did not fall out of the sky. Well, at least you accept what the Church declares to be the inspired inerrant Word of God.