Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[S.O.J.I.A.]

biblical UFO

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

What you said purgatory is isn't there, but what you said it is isn't what it is. You're engaging in a straw man fallacy.

So what's your posistion on purgetory then?

 

[Albion]

Or maybe it means it's simply not there... I mean? The bible is typically clear when it comes to important concepts or ideologies.... It's very clear about hell, heaven, lake of fire....you would figure purgatory would be somewhere in there.

Chilehed's right that you've picked up an erroneous concept of Purgatory, but you are right that the correct one has almost no basis in Scripture.

At best, there are faint hints of something that might be somewhat like Purgatory in a few respects only, but that does stand in contrast to what the Bible says about Hell and Heaven.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Chilehed's right that you've picked up an erroneous concept of Purgatory, but you are right that the correct one has almost no basis in Scripture.

At best, there are faint hints of something that might be somewhat like Purgatory in a few respects only, but that does stand in contrast to what the Bible says about Hell and Heaven.

I see and yeah that's what I'm saying, figured if god was offering second chances he would emphasis that. BUt it's hard to understand something that's not biblical so I'm not surprised maybe I didn't address the concept correctly I guess. All I was trying to say was I just have never seen any indication of it in scripture. I've read about a possible resting place or whatever but it's never referred to as a place for second chances

 

[chilehed]

So what's your posistion on purgetory then?

I believe what Christ's Church teaches: All who die in God's grace and friendship (i.e., those who have been redeemed by the work of Christ), but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This process of final purification is called purgatory.

You said that purgatory bypasses the work of Christ, when in fact it presupposes the work of Christ and no one can attain purgatory unless he is saved by Christ's work.

You said that purgatory is a second chance, when in fact it's not a second chance but conclusion of our first chance: the completion of our sanctification.

 

[Albion]

I see and yeah that's what I'm saying, figured if god was offering second chances he would emphasis that.

Well, Purgatory doesn't give anyone a second chance. That's what Chilehed was saying. It supposedly exists in order to punish those who are already saved.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I believe what Christ's Church teaches: All who die in God's grace and friendship (i.e., those who have been redeemed by the work of Christ), but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. This process of final purification is called purgatory.

You said that purgatory bypasses the work of Christ, when in fact it presupposes the work of Christ and no one can attain purgatory unless he is saved by Christ's work.

Ooh so the belief in purgatory stems from the believe that salvation and sanctification doesn't free you sin? That the Holy Spirit doesn't alone enable an individual to be righteous and Holy? Not criticizing here just wondering and if so it could explain why I couldn't fathom it as a concept because I believe the Holy Ghost enables and individual to be Holy

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well, Purgatory doesn't give anyone a second chance. That's what Chilehed was saying. It supposedly exists in order to punish those who are already saved.

Why do so many then who believe it (I find a lot of Catholics do) present it as a second chance thing? Is it simply that maybe some misunderstand it or? Cause when Christians like myself hear it from others who are supposedly taught it they present it as a second chance thing. I'm 20 btw so I speak mainly with others around my age, maybe it's just part of the whole young people not reading the word epidimec though.

 

[Light of the East]

Or maybe it means it's simply not there... I mean? The bible is typically clear when it comes to important concepts or ideologies.... It's very clear about hell, heaven, lake of fire....you would figure purgatory would be somewhere in there.

It is not there. It is a fond invention of the Roman Church which breaks with the Apostolic Holy Tradition. It is probably the ugly, red-headed step child of Augustine and his strange mental meanderings on anthropology ("massa damnata") and his thoughts on predestination and penal substitution theory.

The Orthodox reject it - case closed.

 

[chilehed]

Ooh so the belief in purgatory stems from the believe that salvation and sanctification doesn't free you sin? That the Holy Spirit doesn't alone enable an individual to be righteous and Holy

Not at all, and I don't understand how you got that idea from what I said.

It stems from the fact that most of us don't attain perfect sanctification before we die, and that only the perfectly sanctified can enter heaven. And as you and Albion admit, there is scriptural support for the teaching.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Not at all, and I don't understand how you got that idea from what I said.

It stems from the fact that most of us don't attain complete sanctification before we die.

How would I not get that from what you said? The only reason you would need another cleansing in some other realm is if salvation on earth doesn't work. Or you believe in a half salvation. I beliebe a saved indidicual as the Bible points out is walking in a spiritual kingdom on earth as they grow and continue to be sanctified, I believe I earth they are preparing for heaven. The Bible even says the righteousness will scarcely be saved. It's a process you work on now

 

[Light of the East]

Three of the best words Jesus ever spoke: "IT IS FINISHED!"

And you are wrong. "It is finished" does not mean that there is some magical incantation called "making a decision for Jesus" and by that, all your sins, past, present, and future, are gone and you are declared in the heavenly courts as "Not Guilty."

What was finished was the Old Covenant and man's separation from God. We are now, according to St. Paul, to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. St. Paul gives no writing with this bogus idea that once we "accept Jesus" all is done and we are in the express lane to heaven.

Salvation is about a journey into Christ-likeness. To be saved is just the beginning of a hard but wonderful journey to God. And if you don't make that journey of theosis here, entering into ascetic practices of the Church (of course, if you are not in the Church, you can't do this because they don't teach it) and bringing your passions under control and with the grace of God, changing your nature in to His, so that "by adoption become what He (Christ) is by nature."

 

[Albion]

Ooh so the belief in purgatory stems from the believe that salvation and sanctification doesn't free you sin?

Oh, it frees you from the eternal consequences of sin. The Medieval mind was big on the idea of God as a righteous judge, so Purgatory is the way he can "purge" the saved of the imperfections supposedly remaining from past sins and also minor transgressions that would not get you condemned to Hell. There's a lot of guesswork and speculation built into the concept.

 

[chilehed]

How would I not get that from what you said?

Because it's the opposite of what I said.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Oh, it frees you from the eternal consequences of sin. The Medieval mind was big on the idea of God as a righteous judge, so Purgatory is the way he can "purge" the saved of the imperfections supposedly remaining from past sins and also minor transgressions that would not get you Hell.

Interesting I see. I read some about the idea originating in the miedvial ages but never understood it. Now I get it a bit more

 

[Light of the East]

Ooh so the belief in purgatory stems from the believe that salvation and sanctification doesn't free you sin? That the Holy Spirit doesn't alone enable an individual to be righteous and Holy? Not criticizing here just wondering and if so it could explain why I couldn't fathom it as a concept because I believe the Holy Ghost enables and individual to be Holy

Salvation frees mankind from sin so that we can not only become sanctified in this life, but that when we die, instead of going into Paradise as the place of waiting as did the OT saints, we go directly to be with our Lord.

Sanctification is a process, a journey, and I sincerely doubt that even the most holy of monks on Mt. Athos have completely attained to Christ-likeness and perfection (they would be the first, in their humility, to admit this) even though many have gotten very close.

Thus the sanctification process must be finished in the next life. Purgatory is a false doctrine of the Roman Church which we Orthodox do not accept nor believe in, but we do know that when we come to the presence of God, who is described as "fire" in the Bible, the fire of His passionate love for us will burn away all in our natures that is not like Him, making us pure and ready for union with Him.

 

[Albion]

Not at all, and I don't understand how you got that idea from what I said.

It stems from the fact that most of us don't attain perfect sanctification before we die, and that only the perfectly sanctified can enter heaven. And as you and Albion admit, there is scriptural support for the teaching.

I said that there are only faint hints of something that might be like Purgatory in only a few respects. That's not the same as "admitting' that there is scriptural support for Purgatory.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Salvation frees mankind from sin so that we can not only become sanctified in this life, but that when we die, instead of going into Paradise as the place of waiting as did the OT saints, we go directly to be with our Lord.

Sanctification is a process, a journey, and I sincerely doubt that even the most holy of monks on Mt. Athos have completely attained to Christ-likeness and perfection (they would be the first, in their humility, to admit this) even though many have gotten very close.

Thus the sanctification process must be finished in the next life. Purgatory is a false doctrine of the Roman Church which we Orthodox do not accept nor believe in, but we do know that when we come to the presence of God, who is described as "fire" in the Bible, the fire of His passionate love for us will burn away all in our natures that is not like Him, making us pure and ready for union with Him.

. I'm not sure where I stated I don't understand how the salvation and life long sanctification process works tbh when I say free from sin I don't mean perfect. Perfect doesn't just imply free from sin but also as like god as one can be and as you point out that's usually achieved in the next life. I say usually cause you could argue there were a few exceptions in the Bible

 

[Vicomte13]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

Purgatory is Scriptural. Gehenna is Purgatory.

 

[Albion]

Purgatory is Scriptural. Gehenna is Purgatory.

Well, THAT's a novel theory.