Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[Light of the East]

I never said complete sanctification, clearly I said complete salvation. There's a difference. Salvation is through repetence, baptism in Jesus name, Holy Ghost. Santificafion is a continued daily refilling of the Holy Spirit and growing in Christ daily continuously addressing weights and things in your life

I never indicated that our salvation is anything other than complete upon our baptism into the faith. I think we are saying the same thing here....sort of.

 

[chilehed]

Well, there is a mention of a coming fire...

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor 3: 10-15​

This passage explicitly speaks of a process which occurs after death, in which one may suffer loss and yet be saved.

There is no suffering or loss in heaven, so this process cannot be taking place in heaven. And there is no escape from hell, so it can't be happening in hell either.

Therefore, there is a third state, in which this purging of the works of wood, hay and straw takes place, and only those bound for heaven enter this third state. This is purgatory. It's right there, explicitly taught by the Apostle Paul.

 

[Albion]

Are you getting my point. The Church is called "the pillar and ground of truth" and not our opinions nor teachings. It is the Church which teaches us and not vice-versa.

I have to laugh when you post all those verses about "human rules" and "traditions of men." If you are not either Catholic or Orthodox, you are following exactly that - a man-made religion of some sort which started around the 16th century and has no connection to that which the Apostles taught.

I find that .... hilarious.

Many people take comfort from simple answers to complex questions and issues, but of course it is the household of God, the believers, that the Scriptures say is the pillar and ground of the faith.

And even they are expected to uphold the Gospel, not improvise on it. To do that would be to defy the meaning of that verse, which is to protect the faith once given to the saints.

 

[Albion]

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor 3: 10-15​

This passage explicitly speaks of a process which occurs after death, in which one may suffer loss and yet be saved.

Let's say that this sketchy passage does speak of a process that occurs after death. In no way does that amount to "Purgatory," which involves a dozen other functions and characteristics and purposes, etc. -- at least according to the church that invented Purgatory. This is what I was explaining in the earlier post.

And when you say "therefore, there is a third state," it's an admission that you've reasoned out the possibility of something that the Bible doesn't actually define or necessitate.

 

[Light of the East]

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor 3: 10-15​

This passage explicitly speaks of a process which occurs after death, in which one may suffer loss and yet be saved.

There is no suffering or loss in heaven, so this process cannot be taking place in heaven. And there is no escape from hell, so it can't be happening in hell either.

Therefore, there is a third state, in which this purging of the works of wood, hay and straw takes place, and only those bound for heaven enter this third state. This is purgatory. It's right there, explicitly taught by the Apostle Paul.

Purgatory was not taught by the Early Fathers. Purgation was, but not Purgatory. And most assuredly not the idea of indulgences and merits which caused the Protestant Rebellion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

See the full circle God first, man rebels,......

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

As I see it, when people do not get forgiven by GOD through JESUS ,
they seek another way,

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

....... God provides, men rebel...

 

[Light of the East]

Many people take comfort from simple answers to complex questions and issues, but of course it is the household of God, the believers, that the Scriptures say is the pillar and ground of the faith.

And even they are expected to uphold the Gospel, not improvise on it. To do that would be to defy the meaning of that verse, which is to protect the faith once given to the saints.

Your statement is a denial of the covenant principle of hierarchy, or Church authority and leadership. Of course, not a surprising statement from one who belongs to a congregation which defied the authority of Rome over them.

 

[JacksBratt]

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor 3: 10-15​

This passage explicitly speaks of a process which occurs after death, in which one may suffer loss and yet be saved.

There is no suffering or loss in heaven, so this process cannot be taking place in heaven. And there is no escape from hell, so it can't be happening in hell either.

Therefore, there is a third state, in which this purging of the works of wood, hay and straw takes place, and only those bound for heaven enter this third state. This is purgatory. It's right there, explicitly taught by the Apostle Paul.

The way that I see this is like a school test. You are in the class, we are all in the class. There is a passing mark of 50%. To achieve the minimum mark, all you have to do is accept Christ as for who He is and His free gift of salvation.... accepting your heart to be sinful and falling short of what is necessary for 50%. Asking for forgiveness and turning your heart to the ways of God.

After that, your faith works will earn you crowns and awards. Through the help of the Holy Spirit, you will do great things on this earth and bring others to Christ, care for the poor, sick and underprivileged.... etc. These things you do will be judged upon your death.

This trial by fire will leave some with the basic passing grade of 50%. In by the skin of your teeth so to speak. Others will be given crowns and honors for their works by faith..

If you did not get the basic 50% for belief in Christ and acceptance of who He was and what He stood for... You never go beyond 0%.....

So, your options are 0%, no matter what you do in your mind to think you are such a great person. You may do great things but Christ will say "I never knew you"

Or, 50% plus...where you have acknowledged God and are saved.

There is no need to and no ability on my part or yours to earn anything toward salvation. It is way beyond our ability to do anything that would justify payment for our sins.

If this were so, then the whole of the gospel was unnecessary and we could have all just spent an allotted time in some jail in the afterlife until we earned our freedom.

Totally unbiblical and a fabrication of those who have a worldly outlook of God's judgement.

 

[PropheticTimes]

You didn't answer my question, sir. Where is the verse that says that the Bible only is all you need for living the Christian life? The verse you quoted above (2 Tim. 3:16) does not say that. If that were true, there would be no need of the Church now, would there?

For instance, where in the Bible do you get the correct understanding of the two natures of Christ Jesus so that you do not wind up a Monophysite or Monothelite heretic? Where in the Bible does it talk about artificial contraception, in vitro fertilization, or what kind of structure a church building must have?

Are you getting my point. The Church is called "the pillar and ground of truth" and not our opinions nor teachings. It is the Church which teaches us and not vice-versa.

I have to laugh when you post all those verses about "human rules" and "traditions of men." If you are not either Catholic or Orthodox, you are following exactly that - a man-made religion of some sort which started around the 16th century and has no connection to that which the Apostles taught.

I find that .... hilarious.

Glad you had a good laugh. You are misunderstanding the meaning of "church". Ekklésia does not refer to a building or a religious system, it refers to " the whole body of Christian believers". The body of Christ, "the church", were taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ as written in Scripture. The church is indeed "the pillar and ground of truth", but it isn't the Catholic church or any other "denomination". It is the body of Christ that is the pillar and ground of truth.

If you must be taught by fallible men in order to feel secure, then by all means do, but you are being/will be led astray. Catholicism is simply a mix of Christian tenets and paganism, but you can say what you like. Most of my family is Catholic so I am not ignorant of the teachings and rituals, which do not have their basis in Scripture, which is God's Word, which I will believe over men.

You go ahead and keep defending what you have been misled to believe, because you will never see it any other way until you choose to open yourself to God's truth. And I don't find that hilarious, I find it very sad.

God bless.

 

[chilehed]

Let's say that this sketchy passage does speak of a process that occurs after death.

Are you indicating that it doesn't, when it explicitly does?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the heirarchy principle - God loves men,
men hate God ............. God provides truth to salvation,
men hate God ............. God sends Jesus,
men defie God ............. God Purifies by BLOOD,
men shed blood............ God Provides Free Righteousness,
men charge money....... God Provides Free Salvation,
men prevent salvation... God gives freely to men,
men hate it ................. God says come to ME all ye......
men say no, serve satan.. God exposes the heirarchy.....
men defend it

 

[Light of the East]

Glad you had a good laugh. You are misunderstanding the meaning of "church". Ekklésia does not refer to a building or a religious system, it refers to " the whole body of Christian believers". The body of Christ, "the church", were taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ as written in Scripture. The church is indeed "the pillar and ground of truth", but it isn't the Catholic church or any other "denomination". It is the body of Christ that is the pillar and ground of truth.

This is utter Protestant balogna, sir, a thick, thick slice of it. Such an understanding of the Church is not found among the Early Fathers or Judaism. This is indeed, nonsense from the Enlightenment.

When you study the Scriptures, you find a hierarchical structure in which God establishes a particular place of worship, a particular form of worship, and particular leaders. When the word "church" is found in the Scriptures, it refers to exactly that. In the Old Covenant, it was national Israel, the Temple, and the priests. In the New Covenant, it is the Apostolic Church, the Apostles, and and the various parishes that have been established under Apostolic authority.

The Church is not a democracy and you don't get to vote on what you think should be proper worship or proper theology. All those who have wandered outside the boundaries of the Church have wandered into heresy or heterodoxy, including, but not limited to: denial of baptismal regeneration, Monothelitism, Monophysitism, Arianism, denial of the Sacraments, "accepting Jesus" for salvation, Marcionism, and an assortment of other wrong teachings. It is the Church alone which is the "pillar and ground of truth" and if you cannot look at the 40,000 Protestant denominations extant and realize that.....well, I can't help you. God is not the author of confusion, but Protestantism is.

If you must be taught by fallible men in order to feel secure, then by all means do, but you are being/will be led astray. Catholicism is simply a mix of Christian tenets and paganism, but you can say what you like. Most of my family is Catholic so I am not ignorant of the teachings and rituals, which do not have their basis in Scripture, which is God's Word, which I will believe over men.

You need to familiarize yourself with the Scriptures. With the giving of the Holy Spirit to them in the Upper Room (John 14-17) the Apostolic office was no longer held by "fallible men." Jesus promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. It is these same "fallible men" who gave you the canon of Scripture, defended the deity of Christ at Nicea, and overturned the heresies regarding the nature of Christ such as Monothelitism. This promise is not given randomly, but to a specific group of men - the Apostles, who were also given the authority to hear and forgive sins (John 20:23).

You go ahead and keep defending what you have been misled to believe, because you will never see it any other way until you choose to open yourself to God's truth. And I don't find that hilarious, I find it very sad.

I find it sad that you have left the Apostolic faith for some Johnny-Come-Lately man-made doctrines made up in the 16th century. You cannot find the things you follow as a Protestant anywhere in the Early Church. This is the scandal of the Roman Church, that so many were ill-catechized (or not at all) and left the Church believing in falsehoods and misinterpretations of the Bible when presented to them with a handshake over coffee hour at some Protestant conclave.

What I am "defending" is simply that which has been taught from the very beginning. I know because I was once a deluded Protestant myself who was too lazy to do historical research and too trusting in the preachers I thought were giving me the pure water of the Gospel when it was in fact so much sewage. That was entirely my fault. I am thankful that God had mercy upon me and has opened my eyes as I have continued to study and seek Him.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What ?

 

[Light of the East]

the heirarchy principle - God loves men,
men hate God ............. God provides truth to salvation,
men hate God ............. God sends Jesus,
men defie God ............. God Purifies by BLOOD,
men shed blood............ God Provides Free Righteousness,
men charge money....... God Provides Free Salvation,
men prevent salvation... God gives freely to men,
men hate it ................. God says come to ME all ye......
men say no, serve satan.. God exposes the heirarchy.....
men defend it

I have no idea what you are trying to prove here with this gobbledegook, other than it appears that you are trying to trash the covenant principle of hierarchy, or leadership.

How you read the Bible and do not see that God establishes leadership over His Church kind of amazes me. You seem to think that any sort of authority is evil, when it clearly appears in Scripture.

 

[PropheticTimes]

Glad you had a good laugh. You are misunderstanding the meaning of "church". Ekklésia does not refer to a building or a religious system, it refers to " the whole body of Christian believers". The body of Christ, "the church", were taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ as written in Scripture. The church is indeed "the pillar and ground of truth", but it isn't the Catholic church or any other "denomination". It is the body of Christ that is the pillar and ground of truth.

This is utter Protestant balogna, sir, a thick, thick slice of it. Such an understanding of the Church is not found among the Early Fathers or Judaism. This is indeed, nonsense from the Enlightenment.

When you study the Scriptures, you find a hierarchical structure in which God establishes a particular place of worship, a particular form of worship, and particular leaders. When the word "church" is found in the Scriptures, it refers to exactly that. In the Old Covenant, it was national Israel, the Temple, and the priests. In the New Covenant, it is the Apostolic Church, the Apostles, and and the various parishes that have been established under Apostolic authority.

The Church is not a democracy and you don't get to vote on what you think should be proper worship or proper theology. All those who have wandered outside the boundaries of the Church have wandered into heresy or heterodoxy, including, but not limited to: denial of baptismal regeneration, Monothelitism, Monophysitism, Arianism, denial of the Sacraments, "accepting Jesus" for salvation, Marcionism, and an assortment of other wrong teachings. It is the Church alone which is the "pillar and ground of truth" and if you cannot look at the 40,000 Protestant denominations extant and realize that.....well, I can't help you. God is not the author of confusion, but Protestantism is.

If you must be taught by fallible men in order to feel secure, then by all means do, but you are being/will be led astray. Catholicism is simply a mix of Christian tenets and paganism, but you can say what you like. Most of my family is Catholic so I am not ignorant of the teachings and rituals, which do not have their basis in Scripture, which is God's Word, which I will believe over men.

You need to familiarize yourself with the Scriptures. With the giving of the Holy Spirit to them in the Upper Room (John 14-17) the Apostolic office was no longer held by "fallible men." Jesus promised them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. It is these same "fallible men" who gave you the canon of Scripture, defended the deity of Christ at Nicea, and overturned the heresies regarding the nature of Christ such as Monothelitism. This promise is not given randomly, but to a specific group of men - the Apostles, who were also given the authority to hear and forgive sins (John 20:23).

You go ahead and keep defending what you have been misled to believe, because you will never see it any other way until you choose to open yourself to God's truth. And I don't find that hilarious, I find it very sad.

I find it sad that you have left the Apostolic faith for some Johnny-Come-Lately man-made doctrines made up in the 16th century. You cannot find the things you follow as a Protestant anywhere in the Early Church. This is the scandal of the Roman Church, that so many were ill-catechized (or not at all) and left the Church believing in falsehoods and misinterpretations of the Bible when presented to them with a handshake over coffee hour at some Protestant conclave.

What I am "defending" is simply that which has been taught from the very beginning. I know because I was once a deluded Protestant myself who was too lazy to do historical research and too trusting in the preachers I thought were giving me the pure water of the Gospel when it was in fact so much sewage. That was entirely my fault. I am thankful that God had mercy upon me and has opened my eyes as I have continued to study and seek Him.

You are misled, sir. We will agree to diagree. What you have been taugh is a lie and your eyes are blinded to it. Enjoy arguing with yourself.

God bless.

 

[PropheticTimes]

What ?

exactly, jeff, exactly

 

[Light of the East]

You are misled, sir. We will agree to diagree. What you have been taugh is a lie and your eyes are blinded to it. Enjoy arguing with yourself.

God bless.

One is never misled by following that which the very first Christians taught. If you wish to believe teachings that came along 16 centuries later and do not agree with what the Apostles taught, you have that right.

 

[Jack Isaacks]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

I say that I don't see invitation hymns, altar calls, and revivals in scripture. They are not only anti-Biblical, but Anti-CHRIST!

Christ is risen!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As written in Scripture,
He who IS IN CHRIST purifies himself, for CHRIST is PURE.
After a person dies,
he does nothing - it is already finished - either he is condemned,
resurrected as the BIBLE says on the appointed day to judgment and shame,
or he is raised to life in CHRIST JESUS as appointed.
All the stories about 'cleaning up sin' after dieing
are completely and utterly from pagan religions
and directly contrary to all SCRIPTURE.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Mankind is evil.
The answers and the warning are clear (the warnings especially, since they are repeated more than the other).

This forum is not an ideal place (understatement!?)
to try to learn the truth from SCRIPTURE - take everything
to GOD in prayer, and VERIFY in HIS WORD
BEFORE accepting anything.