Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[Light of the East]

. I'm not sure where I stated I don't understand how the salvation and life long sanctification process works tbh when I say free from sin I don't mean perfect. Perfect doesn't just imply free from sin but also as like god as one can be and as you point out that's usually achieved in the next life

Okay. Fair dinkum. When you posted what you did, because you do not identify as either Catholic or Orthodox, I assumed that you were taking the standing Protestant position of legal justification which cleanses away everything and makes you instantly fit for heaven (which is heresy).

 

[Light of the East]

Purgatory is Scriptural. Gehenna is Purgatory.

No such place as Purgatory, therefore your supposition is in error.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Okay. Fair dinkum. When you posted what you did, because you do not identify as either Catholic or Orthodox, I assumed that you were taking the standing Protestant position of legal justification which cleanses away everything and makes you instantly fit for heaven (which is heresy).

Well I do believe that if one gets the Holy Spirit and dies right after they would go to heaven. I also believe sanctification is a life long process but I also believe that after you get the Holy Spirit and start walking in newness you're saved from sin and if you were to die the next week you can make it to heaven. Pentocostol beliefs are similar to Protestant in that as soon as you get saved you're saved... like you're not doomed for hell anymore, but you're a newborn babe in Christ, you still can grow and develop and sanctify yourself daily. You're in Christ but not as like him as you can be, now that you're free from sin you have to add kindness,meekness faith etc. you're saved but you must daily sanctify yourself and grow. You must experience refilling of the Holy Spirit daily

 

[Light of the East]

My Bible does not say that if I don't avoid meat, eggs, dairy for 40 days and nothing but water on Good Friday and Holy Saturday, that I am not pursuing my God closely. These are rituals of men and will not get one any closer to the Father.

It does say, however, that I am saved by faith through grace, and not of works so that none should boast.

The true gospel of Jesus Christ has been utterly forsaken by the RCC.

No, the true Gospel has been forsaken by Protestantism and Evangelicalism, which are 16th and 20th century inventions of men far removed from the teachings of the Apostles and the Early Fathers.

Show me where it says in the Bible that everything you must believe and only that which is in the Bible is that which you are to believe.

I'll wait.............

 

[Albion]

Well I do believe that if one gets the Holy Spirit and dies right after they would go to heaven. I also believe sanctification is a life long process but I also believe that after you get the Holy Spirit and start walking in newness you're saved from sin and if you were to die the next week you can make it to heaven. Pentocostol beliefs are similar to Protestant in that as soon as you get saved you're saved... like you're not doomed for hell anymore, but you're a newborn babe in Christ, you still can grow and develop and sanctify yourself daily.

FWIW, those who believe in Purgatory (or some version of the historic teaching of the church on the subject) would agree that if you die as a saved person, you're headed to Heaven. Purgatory is just a stop on the way for everyone who is headed for Heaven.

 

[Light of the East]

Well I do believe that if one gets the Holy Spirit and dies right after they would go to heaven.

Well, that is true, but even if that happened to a person, there is still that issue of having one's nature changed, therefore, there would be purgation after death for the newly converted.

The false doctrine of Protestantism regarding "forensic justification" (legal forgiveness) believes that when you "accept Jesus," you are automatically completely ready for heaven and union with God. This is as bogus as it gets.

To be united with God in the eternal love of the Trinity means that there can be nothing in our nature which is unlike God. If there is anything that is, then the fiery love of God will burn that away, much as fire changes wood until wood is no longer wood, but fire.

The man who has been a inappropriate contentography addict and fornicator for 40 years of his life and suddenly, by God's grace, is brought to repentance, is indeed forgiven, but is he changed?

NO!

That takes time and is not instantaneous. That is what our journey in life, and in the next life, is all about. It is about our cooperation with the grace of God which bends our nature to alignment with His and cleanses us of our impurities.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

FWIW, those who believe in Purgatory (or some version of the historic teaching of the church on the subject) would agree that if you die as a saved person, you're headed to Heaven. Purgatory is just a stop on the way for everyone who is headed for Heaven.

Wow so maybe it would fit with what I beliebe tbh, of course not going to include it or anything I've always been bible based. But it's interesting now seeing how the ideal of purgatory works. I never quite understood it or really looked into it

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Well, that is true, but even if that happened to a person, there is still that issue of having one's nature changed, therefore, there would be purgation after death for the newly converted.

The false doctrine of Protestantism regarding "forensic justification" (legal forgiveness) believes that when you "accept Jesus," you are automatically completely ready for heaven and union with God. This is as bogus as it gets.

To be united with God in the eternal love of the Trinity means that there can be nothing in our nature which is unlike God. If there is anything that is, then the fiery love of God will burn that away, much as fire changes wood until wood is no longer wood, but fire.

The man who has been a inappropriate contentography addict and fornicator for 40 years of his life and suddenly, by God's grace, is brought to repentance, is indeed forgiven, but is he changed?

NO!

That takes time and is not instantaneous. That is what our journey in life, and in the next life, is all about. It is about our cooperation with the grace of God which bends our nature to alignment with His and cleanses us of our impurities.

I don't believe in accept Jesus salvation I agree with that or believe in it. Now I disagree though in certain areas but if we discussed those would go too off topic. But the one I can bring up is the saved from 40 years of whatever. My pastor for example after he got saved immediality stopped with cigarettes and left his woman he had on the side. I immediately stopped talking to girls that were no good for me and left inappropriate contentogrophy. I'm not saying leaving deep sin is automatic for everyone, just that's it's possible. There's a reason in 1 john 2:1 it says sin not before it says take it up with the father. Some don't have to take it back up and can move straight into adding love,kindness, faithfulness and striving to be as like Christ as they can in life, some addess is then and there, Paul is another example of such a phenomenon we can't limit god!

 

[Albion]

Show me where it says in the Bible that everything you must believe and only that which is in the Bible is that which you are to believe.

I'll wait.............

I'd be more inclined to worry about the credibility of any theory that says the Bible is incomplete or inadequate and that something else which the Bible similarly does not teach is to be thought necessary to salvation.

 

[chilehed]

I said that there are only faint hints of something that might be like Purgatory in only a few respects. That's not the same as "admitting' that there is scriptural support for Purgatory.

What respects would those be?

 

[Albion]

Yes, it is.

No, its not, and it's not a strawman argument, either. I'm merely saying that there is no basis for 'Purgatory' in Scripture. I would also appreciate not being said to agree that Purgatory has a scriptural basis when my expressed belief is the opposite.

 

[Light of the East]

There is no purgatory. This is a Roman Catholic false doctrine and is not supported by scripture. When you die you had better be fessed up and right with God through Jesus and His cross His blood and His sacrifice. The simplicity of the gospel is just that. Men and their false doctrines and religions have tried to change the very word of God. Woe unto them. They have tried to add to and take away from God's word. I was saved outside of church walls a d knew nothing of Jesus or God's word. He took a blank page and was able to show me His word, the Bible and the power and truth written there.

That is just the starting point and does not change what you are ontologically. Your very nature has to be changed into likeness of Him, and salvation does not accomplish this. Salvation frees us from the slavery to and damnation of sin, but it is only a starting point.

The doctrine of purgatory has stumbled and damned multitudes.

It may well have made some men stumble, and certainly misunderstand God's love and the afterlife, as it is a Medieval invention of the Roman Church, but it has not damned anyone. It sounds like you are reading Chick tracts.

See what the word says. Repent, be born again, be baptized in water and in the Holy Spirit of God.

No, that is not what the Scripture says. To understand the proper interpretation of the Scriptures, you must study what the first century preachers taught in their sermons. The proper soteriological formula is this: repent, be born again by baptism, and by chrismation receive the Holy Spirit.

Receive the spiritual gifts of God. Speak in tongues. Cast out devils. Put on the full armor of God Ephesians 6th chapter.

All of which are evident in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. It will help you if you do a study on the saints of the Church and the miracles they performed through the centuries.

Those baptized in His Holy Spirit have no need for men to teach them for.

1 John 2:27 (NKJV)
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Do you think that this verse means that these disciples could believe anything they wanted to? Using your reasoning, Arias the Christ-denying heretic could say (and I imagine that he did when defending himself at the Council of Nicea) that the Holy Spirit was teaching him.

There are over 40,000 Protestant denominations, all of which teach something different, some of them quite whacky, yet they all claim that they are being led by the Holy Spirit and the Bible. Do you see a problem here?

 

[Albion]

I'm confused by the fact that your profile twice describes you as Catholic. I didn't think that Purgatory was a doctrine of the Roman rite but not of the other rites that are under the Pope.

 

[PropheticTimes]

No, the true Gospel has been forsaken by Protestantism and Evangelicalism, which are 16th and 20th century inventions of men far removed from the teachings of the Apostles and the Early Fathers.

Show me where it says in the Bible that everything you must believe and only that which is in the Bible is that which you are to believe.

You may choose to believe doctrines and traditions of men over Scripture, but I will not. I test all things against Scripture.

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16

8“ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’c ”
Matthew 15:8-9

20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Colossians 2:20-23

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the traditions of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
Colossians 2:8

I hope I didn't keep you waiting too long.

 

[chilehed]

No, its not, and it's not a strawman argument, either. I'm merely saying that there is no basis for 'Purgatory' in Scripture. I would also appreciate not being said to agree that Purgatory has a scriptural basis when my expressed belief is the opposite.

Rats, I hoped that my edit got in before you saw that post.

You said that "there are only faint hints of something that might be like Purgatory in only a few respects". That is manifestly an admission that there is indeed something in scripture. So, what are those respects?

 

[Light of the East]

I'd be more inclined to worry about the credibility of any theory that says the Bible is incomplete or inadequate and that something else which the Bible similarly does not teach is to be thought necessary to salvation.

Not what I asked, sir. Now show me the verse.....

 

[Albion]

Rats, I hoped that my edit got in before you saw that post.

You said that "there are only faint hints of something that might be like Purgatory in only a few respects". That is manifestly an admission that there is indeed something in scripture. So, what are those respects?

Well, there is a mention of a coming fire. And we have in Maccabees the report of Jews who prayed for their departed fellows that they be loosed from their sins. On those faint hints the idea of Purgatory is built. But that's like saying that the existence of fire proves the existence of fire-breathing dragons or that a scriptural reference to someone talking about a horn proves the existence of unicorns.

 

[Light of the East]

I don't believe in accept Jesus salvation I agree with that or believe in it. Now I disagree though in certain areas but if we discussed those would go too off topic. But the one I can bring up is the saved from 40 years of whatever. My pastor for example after he got saved immediality stopped with cigarettes and left his woman he had on the side. I immediately stopped talking to girls that were no good for me and left inappropriate contentogrophy. I'm not saying leaving deep sin is automatic for everyone, just that's it's possible. There's a reason in 1 john 2:1 it says sin not before it says take it up with the father. Some don't have to take it back up and can move straight into adding love,kindness, faithfulness and striving to be as like Christ as they can in life, some addess is then and there, Paul is another example of such a phenomenon we can't limit god!

You mistake the leaving of our sins of the flesh with complete sanctification. I used to think this way, but as I continued in the faith, I began to see that there are much deeper issues of one's nature that need to be dealt with. Sins such as pride, anger, etc. are not easily seen, and are often excused by us. But they are the real depths to our souls which must be cleansed.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You mistake the leaving of our sins of the flesh with complete sanctification. I used to think this way, but as I continued in the faith, I began to see that there are much deeper issues of one's nature that need to be dealt with. Sins such as pride, anger, etc. are not easily seen, and are often excused by us. But they are the real depths to our souls which must be cleansed.

I never said complete sanctification, clearly I said complete salvation. There's a difference. Salvation is through repetence, baptism in Jesus name, Holy Ghost. Santificafion is a continued daily refilling of the Holy Spirit and growing in Christ daily continuously addressing weights and things in your life

 

[Light of the East]

You may choose to believe doctrines and traditions of men over Scripture, but I will not. I test all things against Scripture.

16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16

8“ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’c ”
Matthew 15:8-9

20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules:21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Colossians 2:20-23

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the traditions of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
Colossians 2:8

I hope I didn't keep you waiting too long.

You didn't answer my question, sir. Where is the verse that says that the Bible only is all you need for living the Christian life? The verse you quoted above (2 Tim. 3:16) does not say that. If that were true, there would be no need of the Church now, would there?

For instance, where in the Bible do you get the correct understanding of the two natures of Christ Jesus so that you do not wind up a Monophysite or Monothelite heretic? Where in the Bible does it talk about artificial contraception, in vitro fertilization, or what kind of structure a church building must have?

Are you getting my point. The Church is called "the pillar and ground of truth" and not our opinions nor teachings. It is the Church which teaches us and not vice-versa.

I have to laugh when you post all those verses about "human rules" and "traditions of men." If you are not either Catholic or Orthodox, you are following exactly that - a man-made religion of some sort which started around the 16th century and has no connection to that which the Apostles taught.

I find that .... hilarious.