Protestants Dominating Christian Fiction

[Gxg (G²)]

Hey I'm looking forward to the movie, I just hope it won't be as changed as Lotr and realize it won't be as good as the book.

If I may say,

I think this film (The Hobbit) was closer to the book than parts of the other LOFR saga.

 

[GenetoJean]

My daughter was upset because she didnt realise it had been made into a trilogy. But I agree, I think the movie was awsome.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My daughter was upset because she didnt realise it had been made into a trilogy. But I agree, I think the movie was awsome.

I was just told on that after I saw the film - and I don't know how they could stretch the material in the book into a triology. Mabye a Two Part movie - but three films, I'd really hope to be impressed on how they'd work it - and if they could find a way to put a lot of things together in a way that neither feels like it's rushed or dragged.

I think I'll like it, regardless, in how it comes out more so than Lord of the Rings

 

[GenetoJean]

Well, the battle scenes will probably be longer. Plus most people complain about the things left out of movies. That won't happen as much.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well, the battle scenes will probably be longer. Plus most people complain about the things left out of movies. That won't happen as much.

I truly do hope they make the films as much as possible like the books - and extend the scenes as much as possible, while making the battle scenes look truly epic. ..especially Smaug. The fights with the Dragon could perhaps span near the End and the Final Movie. I'm still wondering on the conclusion on the Pale Orc who killed the father of the leader of the Dwarf party. Hoping they would find a creative way to make sure he dies well since he really ticked me off...

Tolken was a genius to be able to come up with the things he did.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I have to say I am not holding out a lot of hope for the movie of The Hobbit. The things I have heard make it sound like it will probably stink.

Don't let the reviews sway you, IMHO..as it's worth viewing..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Thorin Oakenshield.

Thorin was epic - and complex in his reasonings.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Tolkien for the win!!

Truthfully, whenever I consider the themes by Tolkien, I see them consistent with what's taught in Christendom and Ancient Christianity - and I wonder if it's necessary for something to be written by someone from a certain camp/worldview in order to express an idea consistent with that worldview...and thus offer a point of unity. To me, whether Protestant or Orthodox, good reading is good reading - and righteousness is righteousness. It shouldn't matter if there's a major story written by a Protestant that seems to get more press than that which other EOs may come up with when it's already the case that the story does a good job of expressing the heart of what many EOs hold sacred in value. No different than what occurs in the world of music and arts.

 

[ArmyMatt]

personally, I have not seen the movie yet, but I am looking forward to when Smaug attacks

 

[Gxg (G²)]

personally, I have not seen the movie yet, but I am looking forward to when Smaug attacks

Why? Not saying it's not an amazing scene to look forward to - but why that one in specific?

I'm hoping the battles will be epic...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why? Not saying it's not an amazing scene to look forward to - but why that one in specific?

I'm hoping the battles will be epic...

prolly just because it's so iconic, like when Bilbo and Gollum are asking each other riddles.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, like EasyG said, are LOADED with Christian allegories and ideas. The problem is, I wonder how many dufus Americans and folks in general really "get" that? I am sad to say, but I think most folks go to the movies to see action, "cool stuff," sword fights, some orcs get their heads chopped off with some oozing black oil, some funny quips from Gandalf and the dwarves, and some great music in the background....maybe a touch of love story here and there at times....

Did people really get the message of the series that JRRT was conveying through is extremely faithful Catholic worldview? I'm sad to say, but I'd doubt it....

 

[Mary of Bethany]

personally, I have not seen the movie yet, but I am looking forward to when Smaug attacks

You'll have to wait for the 2nd installment. Part 1 doesn't get that far, except for a back-story scene telling the history of Smaug & the dwarves.

 

[GenetoJean]

Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, like EasyG said, are LOADED with Christian allegories and ideas. The problem is, I wonder how many dufus Americans and folks in general really "get" that? I am sad to say, but I think most folks go to the movies to see action, "cool stuff," sword fights, some orcs get their heads chopped off with some oozing black oil, some funny quips from Gandalf and the dwarves, and some great music in the background....maybe a touch of love story here and there at times....

Did people really get the message of the series that JRRT was conveying through is extremely faithful Catholic worldview? I'm sad to say, but I'd doubt it....

Well, this dufus didnt. Nor did I know Narnia had Christian allegories either. It is a little problem I have with having aspbergers. I dont read between the lines very well. I love reading but hated afterwords when the teacher asked "What did the author mean when he wrote..." I never knew and didnt get it until it was explained to me.

 

[seashale76]

Well, this dufus didnt. Nor did I know Narnia had Christian allegories either. It is a little problem I have with having aspbergers. I dont read between the lines very well. I love reading but hated afterwords when the teacher asked "What did the author mean when he wrote..." I never knew and didnt get it until it was explained to me.

It's okay- I never got any of the allegories on my first reading either. I read the Narnia books in middle school and never looked deeper than the surface. I read Tolkien in high school (Hobbit, LOTR, and Silmarillion) and never saw allegory there either. It took being told that there was allegory to be found and then going back and rereading to look for it- for me to see it.

I loved the Hobbit movie, btw! For a movie adaptation, I thought it was extremely well done. I actually think I enjoyed this more than the LOTR movies. I also enjoyed the LOTR movies- and I'm quite forgiving of how they were portrayed- as I think it is impossible to truly get everything in. That said, I find them all a bit too long. I've got no problems reading epic novels, but watching movies of said novels more than once is a chore. The movie in my mind is always better.

Of course, I've always separated books from movies in my mind. Books are always going to be better than movies. Movies aren't truly comparable- so I don't really try to go there. It keeps the disappointment factor way down when you do that. Watching movies will never ruin a book for me or vice versa- although I do admit to preferring to read a book before watching a movie as I like the way I picture characters in my mind better. However, it does sometimes annoy me when I think certain actors are miscast.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I never got any of the allegories on my first reading either. I read the Narnia books in middle school and never looked deeper than the surface. I read Tolkien in high school (Hobbit, LOTR, and Silmarillion) and never saw allegory there either. It took being told that there was allegory to be found and then going back and rereading to look for it- for me to see it.

Had the same experience, as I got turned onto the Tolkien series and one by Lewis in Highschool - and I didn't originally get why so many seemed to be in love with it, including one girl I knew around my Junior year who actually studied Elvish - based on the worK Tolkien did with inventing languages. To be clear, if searching out the matter, you may stumble upon a poem called "Namárië," or "Galadriel's Lament in Lórien," which was written in Tolkien's invented language, Quenya, a dialect of Elvish. Two years before the novel was published, Tolkien recorded himself reading the poem in Elvish. The poem has also been recorded as a song by many artists, including one Celtic-sounding tenor which the author authorized. Before he was lauded by geeks and book lovers alike for his writing, Tolkien was a philologist, or a person who studies the origins of words. According to "The Ring of Words: Tolkien and the OED," his first job after World War I was studying the histories of words with Germanic origin beginning with the letter W for the Oxford English Dictionary. For more on Quenya, click here.

But again, as said before, I really didn't get why others were so into Tolkien's work - and yet, after hearing others explain how Tolkien was a believer and having others explain certain Christian themes for me, I began to actually like the series. And from there, I ended up watching both "The Twin Towers" and "Return of the King" in theaters throughout highschool and loving the conversations I could have with others - be it on themes or even which race would you want to be. Even without the explanations, the books/films were good entertainment and plain good stories that captured your imagination - and gave universal themes others could relate to, be it Christians or Non-Christians.

And even others unaware of the Christian themes in the films/books can still find themes of their own depending on what they relate to and value - as it's that simple in concept. ..and yet compkex.

I loved the Hobbit movie, btw! For a movie adaptation, I thought it was extremely well done. I actually think I enjoyed this more than the LOTR movies. I also enjoyed the LOTR movies- and I'm quite forgiving of how they were portrayed- as I think it is impossible to truly get everything in. That said, I find them all a bit too long. I've got no problems reading epic novels, but watching movies of said novels more than once is a chore. The movie in my mind is always better.

So there with you on everything you noted.

Of course, I've always separated books from movies in my mind. Books are always going to be better than movies. Movies aren't truly comparable- so I don't really try to go there. It keeps the disappointment factor way down when you do that. Watching movies will never ruin a book for me or vice versa- although I do admit to preferring to read a book before watching a movie as I like the way I picture characters in my mind better. However, it does sometimes annoy me when I think certain actors are miscast.

I really love the way that the movies can add in giving a different dimension in portraying others - especially in ways that can be relatable to the people viewing, depending on the era one's in.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The movie in my mind is always better.

Of course, I've always separated books from movies in my mind. Books are always going to be better than movies. Movies aren't truly comparable- so I don't really try to go there. It keeps the disappointment factor way down when you do that. Watching movies will never ruin a book for me or vice versa- although I do admit to preferring to read a book before watching a movie as I like the way I picture characters in my mind better. However, it does sometimes annoy me when I think certain actors are miscast.

Truthfully (and I pray I'm not taken the wrong way in saying this ) - but after seeing the Hobbit and LOFR saga, I was reminded of some discussions I had long ago with others on how it can be frustrating that people making the films were able to be creative in how they made others appear - and yet no one seemed creative enough (or desiring to make things relatable enough) to show any of the characters looking non-European. To me, it always seemed bizzare that none of the character descriptions of the people of Middle Earth seemed to preclude having others be people with differing types of skin tones such as Brown, Red or Yellow - or appearing to look like they had Hispanic attributes, Asian or Polynesian/Indonesian Descent, African/Caribbean freatures or Aboriginal/ Indian (and Native American as well) composure. Although I enjoyed the series with my close friends (both whites and non-whites), I did find it odd how there didn't really seem to be anything at all that crossed the minds of the directors to actually give some type of multi-cultural representation.

One person actually said to me once "Well, of course they had those - that's what the Orcs were there for!!" - and to me, I was thinking "Seriously...For REAL??!!"...and another noted that some of the bad guys like the ones riding the Elephant - like Mumakil ( used by the Haradrim ) against the Kingdom of Gondor represented those who could be Non-European...and that kind of put me off a bit.

Apparently, the primitive and savage people of Harad lived in one of the harshest environments in Middle-earth. The tribes of Haradrim lived in a nomadic existence. Due to the lack of natural resources, they relied on organic material such as bone, tusk and obsidian for their armor in place of steel. Their greatest weapon is of course the Mumakil which they rode to battle. The Haradrim would fire spears and arrows from the covered frame placed on top of the Mumakil. The only time they appeared was in the Return of the King where they took part in the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Most of the Harad's population was wiped out there when Aragon unleashed the Dead Men of Dunharrow upon them.

In Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings film trilogy the Haradrim are inspired by Aztecs and Kiribati tribes, according to the ROTK DVD's Weta Workshop documentary.

Again, something just didn't sit right with me on that one...

For why did those who looked Arabic/Eastern (like something from "Prince of Persia" ) have to be the ones who were the bad guys presented? Surely - in all of Middle Earth - there could've been some good people of color and surely the magical races of Middle Earth (Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, etc ) had some folks who were a little bit darker than others. I know others have said that a good story should not make one think it matters - for people are people - and yet I have a feeling that the film would not have been recieved well if all presentations of characthers had looked like they were from the Middle East. Someone would've complained that they didn't look European or white like they envisioned when they read the book ..

Again, I pray that what I say isn't taken the wrong way - as I was personally able to enjoy the story and have done the same for many others. Growing up as a comic/cartoon lover, you fall in love with characters on the basis of their actions/character and it didn't really matter to me fully who the ethnic group of the characer. And yet in light of how many others I've grown up hearing liked the LOTR saga within Non-European communities, I do wonder why it doesn't seem that there's enough concern to make some characters look according to others from those groups. For all of the struggle that has been discussed to make characters relatable on the Big Screen to others who are fans, why does it seem that some representation of the fans of the series who aren't looking complexion-wise like Middle-Earth Europeans strong enough to make a point.

And in light of how many I've even witnessed from within the Black community note where they don't like LOFR for the specific reason that it seemed to universally portray a standard Hollywood theme/forumula in media of non-whites not being significant enough to make a visible prescence in the world of fantasy/adventure quest films, I do hope that it is taken seriously in the future.

As one writer wrote:

"Dr Stephen Shapiro, an expert in cultural studies, race and slavery, said the author used his novels to present bigotry through a fantasy world... He said: "Put simply, Tolkien's good guys are white and the bad guys are black, slant-eyed, unattractive, inarticulate and a psychologically undeveloped horde."In the trilogy, a small group, the fellowship, is pitted against a foreign horde and this reflects long-standing Anglo-European anxieties about being overwhelmed by non-Europeans, he said."
​

Interestingly enought, it was already the case that The Hobbit fired a casting director for thinking only white people live in Middle Earth. Specifically, the casting director was fired after placing ads in New Zealand newspapers specifically calling for actors with “light skin tones” and dismissing another actor by telling her she was “too dark” to appear in the film...and interestingly enough, the one turned away was a woman of Pakistani descent...all in the name of being too dark to play a hobbit.

For more specific reference on the issue where discussion has occurred:

• Racism in Tolkien's Works - Tolkien Gateway
• Wraiths and race | Books | guardian.co.uk
• 'Lord' of racism? Critics view trilogy as discriminatory
• National Geographic Lord of the Rings -- historical influences
• 32. The Lord of the Rings Trilogy - Stuff Black People Don't Like
• In Middle Earth, Must All Hobbits Be White? - National - The Atlantic

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well, Easy, you made up for whatever you seemed to miss with Tolkien in spades as you got older. You seem to be a keenly insightful observer of book, film, and entertainment now, moreso than many actually.

On a different topic, I know you like Sinbad, the comic. I was thinking today about a bit he did in the mid 90's somewhere, where he made fun of Interview with a Vampire, the vampire movie, where he said he would let Dracula kill his girlfriend as long as he could get away...I spent like 1.5 hours searching the internet EVERYWHERE for it. I started to think, "did I dream that up?" Then I found it on Internet Movie Database on Sinbad's page when he hosted SNL around 1994 or so! I cracked up all over again watching it. I love that dude....can't believe Maxim magazine voted him the worst comedian of all time. Lame.

Truthfully (and I pray I'm not taken the wrong way in saying this ) - but after seeing the Hobbit and LOFR saga, I was reminded of some discussions I had long ago with others on how it can be frustrating that people making the films were able to be creative in how they made others appear - and yet no one seemed creative enough (or desiring to make things relatable enough) to show any of the characters looking non-European. To me, it always seemed bizzare that none of the character descriptions of the people of Middle Earth seemed to preclude having others be people with differing types of skin tones such as Brown, Red or Yellow - or appearing to look like they had Hispanic attributes, Asian Descent/features, African/Caribbean freatures or Indian (and Native American as well).

One person actually said to me once "Well, of course they had those - that's what the Orcs were there for!!" - and to me, I was thinking "Seriously...For REAL??!!"...and another noted that some of the bad guys like the ones riding the Elephant - like Mumakil against the Kingdom of Gondor represented those who could be Non-European...and that kind of put me off a bit.

For why did those who looked Arabic/Eastern have to be the ones who were the bad guys presented? Surely - in all of Middle Earth - there could've been some good people of color and surely the magical races of Middle Earth (Dwarves, Elves, Hobbits, etc ) had some folks who were a little bit darker than others. I know others have said that a good story should not make one think it matters - for people are people - and yet I have a feeling that the film would not have been recieved well if all presentations of characthers had looked like they were from the Middle East. Someone would've complained that they didn't look European or white like they envisioned when they read the book ..

 

[Gxg (G²)]

prolly just because it's so iconic, like when Bilbo and Gollum are asking each other riddles.

That makes sense. Iconic is a good word for it

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit, like EasyG said, are LOADED with Christian allegories and ideas. The problem is, I wonder how many dufus Americans and folks in general really "get" that? I am sad to say, but I think most folks go to the movies to see action, "cool stuff," sword fights, some orcs get their heads chopped off with some oozing black oil, some funny quips from Gandalf and the dwarves, and some great music in the background....maybe a touch of love story here and there at times....

Did people really get the message of the series that JRRT was conveying through is extremely faithful Catholic worldview? I'm sad to say, but I'd doubt it....

Personally,

I think there's nothing wrong with going to the movies for the sake of getting a good action/drama or any type of entertainment value. For a lot of people, it seems that it's expected that you can only enjoy a movie if you can find a deep/meaningful theme in it - and personality types can influence what you look for. For others who are more deep in their processing and emotional than others (not a bad thing, mind you), it's easier for them to get a message out of a film than others - whereas those who are geared toward visual/the artisic may pick up more so on other things than most, such as the position of trees in a scene - or the color of clothing or the ways the lighting was for others.

On the Catholic aspect of Tolkien's work, I do think that there are others who caught it mainly due to the fact that they're either knowledgeable about Catholicism and have close friends/family involved in it - or they themselves are Catholic. ...but for the majority of Americans, Protestantism is what rules and even those who enjoy the work of Tolkien would not be able to see Catholic consistency because they've been trained to only see through a Protestant lens....and thus, they feel the work was geared toward them alone - similar to what others do with C.S Lewis when assuming he only wrote for Anglicans and Protestants when many of his views were often in direct support of Eastern Orthodoxy...and he himself noted it, to my knowledge.

I think that even those not looking for a denominational theme could still pick up on good Christian themes if they looked for it. One of the most simple to catch in the Hobbit is the fact that Bilbo was consumed/possessed with comfort - and yet he was willing to leave it all after being challenged with the fact that couldn't stand by/enjoy the comforts of his home while being faced with those who didn't have one......those who lost their home due to the actions of a corrupt king whose lust for gold set the stage for a power-hungry/greedy Dragon to wipe out his people and send them into exile. It was basically a matter of being a Good Samaritan/neighbor to those who come into your path (Luke 10:25-39).

It wasn't difficult for me to see a concept of servanthood/growth in journey. I saw how Bilbo was like Christ who helped us find our way home by leaving the heavenly comforts of His home to aid us - growing as well in wisdom/skill and overcoming temptations in order to help us find our way. Even if I wasn't aware of the Christian themes intended by Tolkien, I think one could still find them just as you can in any film - be it fantasy or scienc fiction. Then again, I'm the kat that could find Biblical truth in a film like "Kill Bill" as easily as I could in a film like "Chronicles of Narnia" ...and ended up crying at the end of the film entitled "The Wolfman" when seeing how the main character died (thankful/content) in the arms of the one who loved him enough to put him out of his misery/save him from himself.