Propitiation

[BNR32FAN]

Good day,

Umm no, let look at the text:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Willingly accepted an "invitation" certainly not here it the text.

You have a group of people who did things in the Lords name some of them mighty. They thought that doing so would be the "key" to entering the kingdom, they were mistaken.

He told them to depart because he never knew them, he never choose to have a relationship with them.

In the end it was not about what they did or did not do , but what Jesus does or does not do.

In Him,

Bill

Well you’re making a lot of assumptions as to why they were rejected. Jesus said they were rejected because of their lawlessness, not because they were not elected to salvation. So how do you apply this same logic you used in this passage with Luke 13:6-9?

”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How do you explain Jesus giving special attention to these individuals and yet their outcome is still uncertain?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, it is not.
There are lots of people in the USA especially, who call themselves "Christians", but have not humbled themselves to the point of accepting (begging) for pure undeserved, unconditional, unselfish charity (forgiveness of the unbelievable huge debt their sins created). They may think their personal sins were not that bad (they are a lot better than most people, or they are automatically forgiven, since they are part on the elect (not up to them to accept).

You said they have not humbled themselves. According to Calvinism that’s God’s work, not their own. These false prophets are willingly accepting God’s offer for salvation, they’re just not holding to their part of the covenant. They do not have Christ abiding in them because they choose lawlessness over faithfulness.

 

[BBAS 64]

Well you’re making a lot of assumptions as to why they were rejected. Jesus said they were rejected because of their lawlessness, not because they were not elected to salvation. So how do you apply this same logic you used in this passage with Luke 13:6-9?

”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How do you explain Jesus giving special attention to these individuals and yet their outcome is still uncertain?

Good day, BRN32

He did not know them and they were worker of lawlessness...

I will stick to what the text means by what it says.

In understanding the passage of Luke one has to understand it is the final part of a long list of teaching from Luke 12:57–59 (Luke 13:1–5).

You may find premier NT geek scholar DA Carson helpful to your in understanding parables.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good day, BRN32

He did not know them and they were worker of lawlessness...

I will stick to what the text means by what it says.

In understanding the passage of Luke one has to understand it is the final part of a long list of teaching from Luke 12:57–59 (Luke 13:1–5).

You may find premier NT geek scholar DA Carson helpful to your in understanding parables.

In Him,

Bill

Yes they weren’t abiding in Christ but it’s obvious from their statement in the passage that they were willing to accept the invitation to salvation.

”Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This isn’t the statement of someone rejecting the offer of salvation, this is the statement of someone trying to receive it thru deceptive intentions. These were people who heard His words and did not act on them.

I still don’t see what why you posted these verses pertaining to Luke 13 when the question, was why is the outcome of these people uncertain when Jesus gave them special attention? God The Father said “cut them down” Jesus stepped in and said give Me time to give them special attention and if they bear fruit let them be, but if they still don’t bear fruit chop them down. These verses you posted have nothing to do with the question I asked.

 

[BBAS 64]

Yes they weren’t abiding in Christ but it’s obvious from their statement in the passage that they were willing to accept the invitation to salvation.

”Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This isn’t the statement of someone rejecting the offer of salvation, this is the statement of someone trying to receive it thru deceptive intentions. These were people who heard His words and did not act on them.

I still don’t see what why you posted these verses pertaining to Luke 13 when the question, was why is the outcome of these people uncertain when Jesus gave them special attention? God The Father said “cut them down” Jesus stepped in and said give Me time to give them special attention and if they bear fruit let them be, but if they still don’t bear fruit chop them down. These verses you posted have nothing to do with the question I asked.

Good day, BNR

Just re-adding the context... it is king:

Nothing about abiding
Nothing about an invitation
Nothing about a offer
Nothing about them hearing his words

I will stick to the text, I am not really a big fan of assertions from silence.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I addressed Luke for you as it relates to Parables.

In Him

Bill

 

[bling]

Not if that person whose sin has been forgiven, has never believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. They end up at the great white throne judgment.

First off: it is not following a bunch of rules which “saves you”, Deity forgives you and saves you and makes all the rules. Deity looks at the hearts of people to decide who He save.

We agree that “believing” is more than just acknowledging, so looking at a few verses which tells us some of what believing includes doe not mean there is not more to it, what all does it mean?

All the people who were saved prior to Christ coming to earth were saved by God’s forgiving mercy/Love/charity/grace, without knowing Jesus. The New Testament was written to Christians which did believe in Christ and were saved by that faith.

I can not answer your second statement as Jesus has taken away all sin for every person.

OK, we have a real big difference here:

• Do you believe God forgives people’s sins or are they somehow “Taken away”?
• If sins are forgiven 100% there is nothing to pay for or take away.
• Forgiveness is a transaction, so God can forgive you without forgiveness taking place Matt. 18. God always does His part perfectly, so He is forgiving everyone unconditionally, but people have to much pride to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (forgiveness) as pure charity.
• How can you say: “all sin for every person, has been taken away” when people are still sinning?

What does it mean to "Believe in Jesus", i will let The Bible speak to this.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

If you need a longer written examination of what is belief in Jesus, here are a few articles read them if you like.
What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

Believing That Jesus Is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31) – Grace Evangelical Society

The verses you chose and the articles you asked me to read still do not really explain what it means for me to believe in Jesus.

Do I also not need to Love Jesus?

If I Love Jesus as my savior, would I not also obey Jesus?

Would I also be a disciple of Jesus and how is that not being one of the apostles?

Do I not also have to be like Jesus?

Will I hate sin?

 

[bling]

-
​

Can you name a person or person's who Jesus' death and resurrection did not cover their sin.

All those forgiven prior to the cross and died:
Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

 

[bling]

You said they have not humbled themselves. According to Calvinism that’s God’s work, not their own. These false prophets are willingly accepting God’s offer for salvation, they’re just not holding to their part of the covenant. They do not have Christ abiding in them because they choose lawlessness over faithfulness.

Matt. 23: 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Jesus is saying those in the world who exalt themselves (evil prideful sinners) now will later be humbled, so God humility is on their part and not God miraculously making the humble.

 

[d taylor]

First off: it is not following a bunch of rules which “saves you”, Deity forgives you and saves you and makes all the rules. Deity looks at the hearts of people to decide who He save.

We agree that “believing” is more than just acknowledging, so looking at a few verses which tells us some of what believing includes doe not mean there is not more to it, what all does it mean?

All the people who were saved prior to Christ coming to earth were saved by God’s forgiving mercy/Love/charity/grace, without knowing Jesus. The New Testament was written to Christians which did believe in Christ and were saved by that faith.

OK, we have a real big difference here:

• Do you believe God forgives people’s sins or are they somehow “Taken away”?
• If sins are forgiven 100% there is nothing to pay for or take away.
• Forgiveness is a transaction, so God can forgive you without forgiveness taking place Matt. 18. God always does His part perfectly, so He is forgiving everyone unconditionally, but people have to much pride to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved charity (forgiveness) as pure charity.
• How can you say: “all sin for every person, has been taken away” when people are still sinning?

The verses you chose and the articles you asked me to read still do not really explain what it means for me to believe in Jesus.

Do I also not need to Love Jesus?

If I Love Jesus as my savior, would I not also obey Jesus?

Would I also be a disciple of Jesus and how is that not being one of the apostles?

Do I not also have to be like Jesus?

Will I hate sin?

Why do you have to be told what believing is. If a person tells you, tomorrow they will bring you a few tomatoes, you either believe them or not. That is what believing is, plain and simple.

So in The Bible where Jesus tells you He is the resurrection and the life, the promised Messiah/Son of God. You either believe this or you do not.

Take the illustration in John 3 about Moses and the snake placed up on the pole. The people either believed Moses and looked at the snake on the pole when bitten and lived or they did not believe Moses and did not look and died,

The Bible states Jesus took away the sin of the world. Sin is not the reason a person ends up in the lake of fire. The articles i linked to covered this well.

 

[Hammster]

And you shall consume all the peoples whom Yahweh your God will give over to you; your eye shall not pity them, nor shall you serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you.
— Deuteronomy 7:16

This was said after the command to go into the promised land and utterly destroy the people. God said He destroys those who hate Him. So for these people God’s wrath was satisfied by their destruction, not Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good day, BNR

Just re-adding the context... it is king:

Nothing about abiding
Nothing about an invitation
Nothing about a offer
Nothing about them hearing his words

I will stick to the text, I am not really a big fan of assertions from silence.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I addressed Luke for you as it relates to Parables.

In Him

Bill

He wasn’t finished with the message at verse 23 which is why verse 24 begins with the word “Therefore”.

”“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell and great was its fall.”“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭24‬-‭27‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Apparently according to the context this was in reference to people who had heard His words and weren’t acting on them.

Does Jesus say “I never knew you” to people who are currently abiding in Him? No? Then apparently they weren’t abiding in Him. So that is also supported by the context.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Matt. 23: 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Jesus is saying those in the world who exalt themselves (evil prideful sinners) now will later be humbled, so God humility is on their part and not God miraculously making the humble.

He didn’t say anything about these particular people exalting themselves. He specifically said that they will be rejected because of their lawlessness not because of their arrogance. They will hear His words and but they won’t act on them. Granted Matthew 23:11-12 does apply to everyone but it was not stated in reference to this specific group of people. You’re quoting a passage spoken years later, in a completely different place, to a different group of people, that is not pertaining to false prophets. Matthew 23 is in reference to the Pharisees not false prophets who were performing miracles in Christ’s name.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And you shall consume all the peoples whom Yahweh your God will give over to you; your eye shall not pity them, nor shall you serve their gods, for that would be a snare to you.
— Deuteronomy 7:16

This was said after the command to go into the promised land and utterly destroy the people. God said He destroys those who hate Him. So for these people God’s wrath was satisfied by their destruction, not Christ’s sacrifice.

The first death is not what satisfies God’s wrath. If that were the case there would be no need for the lake of fire. I think it’s possible that people may have been saved by Jesus preaching in Sheol, if that’s what Peter was referring to in 1 Peter 3:19.

 

[Hammster]

The first death is not what satisfies God’s wrath. If that were the case there would be no need for the lake of fire. I think it’s possible that people may have been saved by Jesus preaching in Sheol, if that’s what Peter was referring to in 1 Peter 3:19.

That would contradict Hebrews 9.

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
— Hebrews 9:27

Plus, it would contradict how God speaks of them.

 

[bling]

Why do you have to be told what believing is. If a person tells you, tomorrow they will bring you a few tomatoes, you either believe them or not. That is what believing is, plain and simple.

This “trust” concerning tomatoes is of no significance. But do I, “trust” you to pack my parachute, so I can jump out of an airplane is a whole different degree of trust.

So in The Bible where Jesus tells you He is the resurrection and the life, the promised Messiah/Son of God. You either believe this or you do not.

What if you know nothing about Jesus?

What if you read very little of the Bible? (there are lots of books out there.)

Take the illustration in John 3 about Moses and the snake placed up on the pole. The people either believed Moses and looked at the snake on the pole when bitten and lived or they did not believe Moses and did not look and died,

They might have personally witnessed people bitten and living by looking at the pole. They had plenty of personal reasons to trust Moses.

The Bible states Jesus took away the sin of the world. Sin is not the reason a person ends up in the lake of fire. The articles i linked to covered this well.

People are still sinning, so Jesus did not take away all sins. People end up in the “Lake of Fire” because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness.

 

[bling]

He didn’t say anything about these particular people exalting themselves. He specifically said that they will be rejected because of their lawlessness not because of their arrogance. They will hear His words and but they won’t act on them. Granted Matthew 23:11-12 does apply to everyone but it was not stated in reference to this specific group of people. You’re quoting a passage spoken years later, in a completely different place, to a different group of people, that is not pertaining to false prophets. Matthew 23 is in reference to the Pharisees not false prophets who were performing miracles in Christ’s name.

We were talking about humility only and if sinful people could be humble.

 

[d taylor]

This “trust” concerning tomatoes is of no significance. But do I, “trust” you to pack my parachute, so I can jump out of an airplane is a whole different degree of trust.

What if you know nothing about Jesus?

What if you read very little of the Bible? (there are lots of books out there.)

They might have personally witnessed people bitten and living by looking at the pole. They had plenty of personal reasons to trust Moses.



People are still sinning, so Jesus did not take away all sins. People end up in the “Lake of Fire” because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness.

No belief is belief. There is no special type of belief a person uses to believe in Jesus, what makes receiving Eternal Life special. Is that, it is a promise from God who can not lie. Unlike the promise from a person bringing you tomatoes, they could have lied or forgot to bring them. But still your belief in their original promise to bring you tomatoes was not a false belief.

Where does in The Bible does it say a person has to have great knowledge of Jesus before they can believe in Jesus. If they understand Jesus is The promised Messiah/Son of God the resurrection and the life and believe this. They know enough to believe in Jesus and receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Again where does it say in The Bible a person has to have read a lot of The Bible, to be able to believe in Jesus.

You still miss what Jesus taking away the sin of the world means. What you are trying to make it mean is not correct. Jesus dying and being resurrected took away the sin of man as a barrier between God and man. That is why The Bible states sacrifice for sin is over Jesus has sat down the work is finished (go read Hebrews).

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Jesus taking away the sin of the world, does not mean people have stopped sinning. People (believers and unbelievers) will sin till the day they die. But sin is not a condition humanity has to deal with before they can believe in Jesus.

No mention at the great white throne (which is the judgment of all unbelievers) of unbelievers being sent to the lake of fire because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness.

It is stated they are sent to the lake of fire for one reason and one reason only they (their names) are not found to be written in the book of life. These unbelievers remain a sinner for all eternity, where as a believer at their physical death stop being a sinner.

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

A person gets their name written in the book of life, when they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[bling]

No belief is belief. There is no special type of belief a person uses to believe in Jesus, what makes receiving Eternal Life special. Is that, it is a promise from God who can not lie. Unlike the promise from a person bringing you tomatoes, they could have lied or forgot to bring them. But still your belief in their original promise to bring you tomatoes was not a false belief.

God is making some huge promises, which takes a knowledge of God, understanding the need, and choosing to believe.

Where does in The Bible does it say a person has to have great knowledge of Jesus before they can believe in Jesus. If they understand Jesus is The promised Messiah/Son of God the resurrection and the life and believe this. They know enough to believe in Jesus and receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

Again where does it say in The Bible a person has to have read a lot of The Bible, to be able to believe in Jesus.

How many people know what “Messiah” means?

Greek poets talked about everyone being a child of God.

Most people have a really hard time believing Christ rose from the grave.

I do not believe you have to read any of the Bible to believe in the Christ living in and through a Christian.

You are the one saying “read the Bible”.

You still miss what Jesus taking away the sin of the world means. What you are trying to make it mean is not correct. Jesus dying and being resurrected took away the sin of man as a barrier between God and man. That is why The Bible states sacrifice for sin is over Jesus has sat down the work is finished (go read Hebrews).

God forgave the sins which were between myself and God. What Christ did was to help me be reconciled, feel righteous and justified before God.

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

The word “many” is used and not “all”.

Jesus taking away the sin of the world, does not mean people have stopped sinning. People (believers and unbelievers) will sin till the day they die. But sin is not a condition humanity has to deal with before they can believe in Jesus.

If you are a nonbelieving sinner, what are they believing in Jesus to do.

No mention at the great white throne (which is the judgment of all unbelievers) of unbelievers being sent to the lake of fire because they did not humbly accept God’s forgiveness.

It is stated they are sent to the lake of fire for one reason and one reason only they (their names) are not found to be written in the book of life. These unbelievers remain a sinner for all eternity, where as a believer at their physical death stop being a sinner.

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

A person gets their name written in the book of life, when they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Your name is in the book of life, because your sins are forgiven.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

To truly believe in Jesus is to Love Jesus otherwise you are just acknowledging His existence, to Love him with this Godly type Love requires forgiveness Luke 7 He that is forgiven much Loves much.

 

[d taylor]

God is making some huge promises, which takes a knowledge of God, understanding the need, and choosing to believe.

How many people know what “Messiah” means?

Greek poets talked about everyone being a child of God.

Most people have a really hard time believing Christ rose from the grave.

I do not believe you have to read any of the Bible to believe in the Christ living in and through a Christian.

You are the one saying “read the Bible”.

God forgave the sins which were between myself and God. What Christ did was to help me be reconciled, feel righteous and justified before God.

The word “many” is used and not “all”.

If you are a nonbelieving sinner, what are they believing in Jesus to do.

Your name is in the book of life, because your sins are forgiven.

To truly believe in Jesus is to Love Jesus otherwise you are just acknowledging His existence, to Love him with this Godly type Love requires forgiveness Luke 7 He that is forgiven much Loves much.

A person does not choose their beliefs. If a person believes in Jesus, they believe in Jesus because they believe the evidence presented in The Bible about Jesus and how to receive Eternal Life is true.

If they do not believe the evidence is true, they will not believe.

Knowing Santa Claus is fake, can you choose to actually believe he is real. You may say you could, but that would be dishonest.

Messiah and Son of God are saying the same identity about Jesus. Ok so Greek poets talk about that, How many talk about The Son of God.

Most people have a hard time believing Christ rose from the grave. So obviously these people believe Jesus is not the resurrection and the life. So what is you point saying, most people have a hard time believing Christ rose from the grave. Believers who Paul was addressing in 1st Corinthians 15, did not believe in a resurrection for the dead.


Romans 5
even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
The many is applied to people who believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, not all will believe in Jesus so many is used. But the free gift is there for all to have, just some will never receive it, because they never believe.

A persons name is in the book of life, because they believed in Jesus for The life of God. The book is not called, the your sins are forgiven book.

A nonbelieving sinner (person) is not believing in Jesus for anything

Love is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Receiving God;s free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus, should result in the person loving God, but that may not be the case.

Just like bearing fruit should be the activity of the believer, but that is not the case for a lot of believers. The parable of the soils shows/teaches this, out of the three soils of believers only one of those soils bore fruit, the fourth soil.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We were talking about humility only and if sinful people could be humble.

I thought we were talking about the people Jesus is referring to in Matthew 7:21-27.