Propitiation

[bling]

A person does not choose their beliefs. If a person believes in Jesus, they believe in Jesus because they believe the evidence presented in The Bible about Jesus and how to receive Eternal Life is true.

If they do not believe the evidence is true, they will not believe.

Knowing Santa Claus is fake, can you choose to actually believe he is real. You may say you could, but that would be dishonest.

Messiah and Son of God are saying the same identity about Jesus. Ok so Greek poets talk about that, How many talk about The Son of God.

Most people have a hard time believing Christ rose from the grave. So obviously these people believe Jesus is not the resurrection and the life. So what is you point saying, most people have a hard time believing Christ rose from the grave. Believers who Paul was addressing in 1st Corinthians 15, did not believe in a resurrection for the dead.


Romans 5
even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
The many is applied to people who believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, not all will believe in Jesus so many is used. But the free gift is there for all to have, just some will never receive it, because they never believe.

A persons name is in the book of life, because they believed in Jesus for The life of God. The book is not called, the your sins are forgiven book.

A nonbelieving sinner (person) is not believing in Jesus for anything

Love is not a condition to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Receiving God;s free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus, should result in the person loving God, but that may not be the case.

Just like bearing fruit should be the activity of the believer, but that is not the case for a lot of believers. The parable of the soils shows/teaches this, out of the three soils of believers only one of those soils bore fruit, the fourth soil.

You say: “…believe the evidence presented in The Bible about Jesus”, People have to see Jesus living in and through a true Christian and they will trust and believe that person. Just picking up the Bible and believing the Bible is not first century.

“So obviously these people believe Jesus is not the resurrection and the life”, People do not know what and why they need to believe so they cannot make the choice. It is our job to provide them the choice.

 

[d taylor]

You say: “…believe the evidence presented in The Bible about Jesus”, People have to see Jesus living in and through a true Christian and they will trust and believe that person. Just picking up the Bible and believing the Bible is not first century.

“So obviously these people believe Jesus is not the resurrection and the life”, People do not know what and why they need to believe so they cannot make the choice. It is our job to provide them the choice.

I have replied enough to your post quoting me.

 

[biblelesson]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

God did in fact love the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

God gave His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world! The requirement is we must believe on His Son to be saved. Those who choose not to believe cannot be saved - Cannot

You can’t just make blatant statements without knowing scripture. And you can take whatever opinion you want that people say; however you are responsible for knowing God’s truth - so it’s a waste of time taking sides with people. That’s your first mistake that’s blinding you! We are to follow what God say.

The entire salvation process is defined in the gospel. So why take one scripture and ignore all the other scriptures? Doing so makes you someone who are using flawed reasoning without any bases to do so, simply because you failed to consider all other scriptures relating to salvation - because you choose to follow what people say who also do not know scripture.

1) You failed to consider the Holy Spirit.
2) You failed to consider the Spirit of Christ.
3) You failed to consider the indwelling Spirit
4) You failed to consider how our spirit communes with the Holy Spirit and the purpose
5) You failed to consider the sealing of the believer for the kingdom
6) You failed to consider what makes us children of God based on Christ atonement - that we cry Abba Father
7) You failed to consider that the believer is raised with the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead which is the same Spirit that indwells the believer
8) You failed to see that it’s the Spirit of Christ that clothes the believer with righteousness.
9) You failed to consider we are to possess the faith of Abraham, which is a requirement for salvation
8) You failed to consider that it’s the believers that are the temple of God and you fail to consider how the body as a temple compares to the temple the children of Israel sacrificed in
8) You fail to consider that through Christ we are grafted into Abraham, we are made Abraham’s seed, and are grafted into the blessings of Abraham ordained by God relating to our salvation in Jesus
9) You fail to consider we as believers are grafted into Israel, God’s chosen people who He made a promise to the fathers to forever save - saved through Jesus Whose name is also Israel
10) You failed to consider the carnal nature
11) You failed to consider the old man and the new man, who they are and why they are important related to salvation

Ever numbered item is in the Bible and relates to salvation in Jesus. Studying will answer the question as to why some are saved and why some are not, compared to God’s love for all mankind.

The lake of fire is for those who chose not to believe in Jesus who is our only Advocate and is the propitiation for our sins. Jesus atoned for every person on earth, but many people will not accept Christ Jesus to be saved.

Study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of God, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

I gave you enough to start with.

 

[Hammster]

God did in fact love the world that He gave His only begotten Son.

I know. But what I don’t know is what you think is meant by world.

God gave His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of the world! The requirement is we must believe on His Son to be saved. Those who choose not to believe cannot be saved - Cannot

Again, what is meant by world? Does this include those wiped out by the flood? First born in Egypt? The babies that the Israelites killed when they conquered Canaan?

You can’t just make blatant statements without knowing scripture.

I didn’t.

And you can take whatever opinion you want that people say; however you are responsible for knowing God’s truth - so it’s a waste of time taking sides with people.

Um…okay.

That’s your first mistake that’s blinding you! We are to follow what God say.

I have followed His word.

The entire salvation process is defined in the gospel. So why take one scripture and ignore all the other scriptures?

I haven’t.

Doing so makes you someone who are using flawed reasoning without any bases to do so, simply because you failed to consider all other scriptures relating to salvation - because you choose to follow what people say who also do not know scripture.

If I had done that, you’d be correct

1) You failed to consider the Holy Spirit.

No, I haven’t.

2) You failed to consider the Spirit of Christ.

That the same person as the Holy Spirit.

3) You failed to consider the indwelling Spirit

Nope.

4) You failed to consider how our spirit communes with the Holy Spirit and the purpose

That isn’t relevant to my point.

5) You failed to consider the sealing of the believer for the kingdom

Still not relevant to my point.

6) You failed to consider what makes us children of God based on Christ atonement - that we cry Abba Father

Not relevant to my point.

7) You failed to consider that the believer is raised with the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead which is the same Spirit that indwells the believer.

Not relevant to my point.

8) You failed to see that it’s the Spirit of Christ that clothes the believer with righteousness.

While that is true, it isn’t relevant to my point.

9) You failed to consider we are to possess the faith of Abraham, which is a requirement for salvation

It’s the requirement for justification, not regeneration.

8) You failed to consider that it’s the believers that are the temple of God and you fail to consider how the body as a temple compares to the temple the children of Israel sacrificed in

Not relevant

8) You fail to consider that through Christ we are grafted into Abraham, we are made Abraham’s seed, and are grafted into the blessings of Abraham ordained by God relating to our salvation in Jesus

Not relevant

9) You fail to consider we as believers are grafted into Israel, God’s chosen people who He made a promise to the fathers to forever save - saved through Jesus Whose name is also Israel

Not relevant

10) You failed to consider the carnal nature

Actually, that I have considered.

11) You failed to consider the old man and the new man, who they are and why they are important related to salvation

I have considered that.

Ever numbered item is in the Bible and relates to salvation in Jesus. Studying will answer the question as to why some are saved and why some are not, compared to God’s love for all mankind.

I already have studied that. And I know why.

The lake of fire is for those who chose not to believe in Jesus who is our only Advocate and is the propitiation for our sins. Jesus atoned for every person on earth, but many people will not accept Christ Jesus to be saved.

It’s for unregenerate sinners.

Study to show yourself approved rightly dividing the word of God, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV

I gave you enough to start with.

You didn’t actually address my argument though.

 

[contratodo]

But as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His order, Christ the first fruits, then they that are Christs at His coming. Then afterward the resurrection of the unjust.
Christ purchased resurrection for every man, there will be a resurrection of the dead, the just and the unjust, Acts 24:15.

Indeed His death and resurrection was the propitiation of the whole world.

Christ returns and reigns for 1000 years, Revelation 20:4-6
after the 1000 years Satan is let loose again "to deceive" the whole world, gathering them for battle against the camp of the saints.
Revelation 20:7-9 How long is that time? The Bible does not say.
The whole world is deceived into going to fight the camp of the saints,
but a fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys them.
Then the second resurrection, Revelation 20:11-15 everyone dead is resurrected and judged, the book of life opened to see if any are in it.
It must be that they could potentially be in the book of life, I do not think God is facetious, if the book of life is opened, people may be in it,
which means even during the time of deception, people can be saved, saved by believing in Jesus whom we have record of in the Bible.

There is no point in time when someone can't be saved,
and resurrection has indeed been purchased for every human, just and unjust.

 

[Hammster]

Indeed His death and resurrection was the propitiation of the whole world.

Then there is no one in hell, since hell is punishment for sin.

 

[contratodo]

Then there is no one in hell, since hell is punishment for sin.

"And death and hades gave up the dead that were in them...." Revelation 20:13

Christ paid the price for that to be able to happen.

There will be a resurrection of the dead, of both the just and the unjust. Acts 24:15

Such was paid for by the death and resurrection of Christ.

As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Hell is punishment for not accepting Christ, for not being led by Christ.

And the idea that Gods judgement is extreme is not in the Bible.
If you told a lie when you were 5, if you turned from lying, God does not hold that old lie against you for entrance into His kingdom.

"If the wicked turn from his wickedness and do what is lawful and right,
all his wickedness that he did will not be remembered against him." Ezekiel 18:21-32

That is how God will judge, looking for a time when a person, turned, from their sin.
Through Christ a person can turn and then be transformed by His Holy Spirit.

Hell is punishment for those who refuse to turn.
But even those in hell, will be resurrected out, due to the price Christ paid.


Everyone gets resurrected, and also the life that people enjoy now was paid for by Christ,
we must remember that God destroyed the old world with a flood due to their sin,
due to Christ, that same kind of destruction is abated, propitiated.


In the end Christ Himself will come and destroy those who are willing to reject and fight against Him.

 

[Hammster]

Hell is punishment for not accepting Christ, for not being led by Christ.

Which is a sin. And if someone is punished for any sin that Christ took the punishment for, that makes God unjust.

You can’t have Christ taking all the punishment for all the sin in all of history, and still have someone punished for that sin.

 

[bling]

Which is a sin. And if someone is punished for any sin that Christ took the punishment for, that makes God unjust.

You can’t have Christ taking all the punishment for all the sin in all of history, and still have someone punished for that sin.

I agree with your logic, but Christ did not take our place taking the "punishment instead of us:
When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept: A doctrine, a denomination, a book, a theology, a church or something else. NO, you want the nonbeliever to accept “Jesus Christ and Him Crucified” and if he does accept this, then a child of God is released to enter the Kingdom and be with God, but if the sinner rejects “Jesus Christ and Him crucifies” a child is kept out of the Kingdom.

Does this not sound very much like a kidnapping scenario with a ransom being offered?



“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is described in scripture as the ransom payment.



Could the sinner holding a child of God out of the Kingdom of God, be described as a criminal kidnapper?



“Jesus Christ and Him crucified” is a huge sacrificial payment, like you find with children being ransomed?



Now think about this:



In the context of first century time and the people being addressed how would they have understood this idea of an unbelievable huge ransom being paid. Does the “ransoming” fit a kidnapping ransom? The Bible tells us there is a ransom payment at least being offered and definitely made for “many” and “God’s saints” and there is a redemption (setting free).



Peter even helps us out more by contrasting the unbelievable huge payment of Christ to just a payment of silver and gold. Who might take silver and gold, so it can be a good analogy for Peter? 1 Peter 1:18 You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold,



A kidnapper, in general, holds back the parent’s children awaiting an acceptable ransom payment, so who do you blame for keeping children out of the Kingdom?



The Kidnapper cannot be God, since He is not an undeserving criminal kidnapper holding His own children back.



Also, the Kidnapper would not be satan, since God has the power to take from satan, without paying anything to satan. There is no cosmic Law saying you got to pay the kidnapper and it would be wrong to do so, if you could get around it and satan is fully undeserving.

 

[Hammster]

When you go up to a nonbelieving sinner, what are you trying to get him/her to accept:

That man is sinful, and outside of believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, they are eternally damned.

 

[bling]

That man is sinful, and outside of believing in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, they are eternally damned.

Yes, all mature adults are sinful and they cannot do anything 'worthy, righteous, holy or deserving of anything, but man can for selfish reasons (thus sinful reasons) can humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity from his enemy (God). Then God can shower the person with gifts including eternal life.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, all mature adults are sinful and they cannot do anything 'worthy, righteous, holy or deserving of anything, but man can for selfish reasons (thus sinful reasons) can humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity from his enemy (God). Then God can shower the person with gifts including eternal life.

That’s outside the scope of this thread. This thread is about propitiation.

 

[zoidar]

Which is a sin. And if someone is punished for any sin that Christ took the punishment for, that makes God unjust.

You can’t have Christ taking all the punishment for all the sin in all of history, and still have someone punished for that sin.

Hi Hammster! How ya doing?

It is a bit hard to fully explain everything that happened on the cross. We do our best through theology and philosophy. You make the statement "if it is like this God is unjust". Maybe the problem is we lack the complete picture of the punishment of Christ on the cross. If what you say is unjust, then the statement must have a logical flaw. It doesn't mean unlimited atonement itself must be in error. Unlimited atonement raises some tough questions, but even more so does limited atonement/particular redemption, at least from my point of view. We have to choose which we find is biblically correct and live with the things we can't yet fully grasp.

Anyhow, here are a few of my thoughts.

1. Did Christ take the punishment for the sin of Adam? If Christ did, what does that mean? All sin stems from Adam, which means Christ has taken the punishment for the root sin, a sin which is in essense the same as all sin. I think of it like Adam's sin is a drop of poison put in a glass of water (mankind), the whole glass is full of the same poison. So Christ taking the punishment for sin is like an antidote against Adam's sin/the drop of poison. It clears up the whole glass, even it's only in essense an antidote for the one sin/the drop of Adam.

2. Christ was a man, sacrificed on the cross. Was he fully a man, or were only parts of him man? Of course fully man! If so, he was fully a human sacrifice. What does a human sacrifice do? It is a payment for whatever it is representing, in Christ's case, he represents the human, a sacrifice equally valid for everyone who is a human.

3. Christ didn't bear particular sins. What I mean is Christ didn't bear my particular sin as a kid stealing money from my brother. What he did was bear the punishment of the general sin of stealing. So if anyone steals, that sin is paid by Christ. It's the same with future sins. Christ didn't have to know the future to take on himself the sins I will commit in the future. He took on himself the curse of sin, since he bore the punishment of sin itself. So since Christ bore the punishment of sin, I can be assured he also bore the punishment for my sins, even my future sins.

4. Having the punishment for my sins paid, doesn't mean I am free of judgment. I'm still morally guilty for my sins, since Christ didn't bear my moral guilt. I'm free from judgment when I receive Christ and am forgiven, which means I'm no longer morally guilty for my sins. First then is the payment of Christ actualized in my life. Also punishment may be a bad wording. The fact is the Bible never say Christ's death on the cross was a punishment. But it may be a useful way to give an easy to understand picture of the atonement, without going into details.

 

[Hammster]

Having the punishment for my sins paid, doesn't mean I am free of judgment. I'm still morally guilty for my sins, since Christ didn't bear my moral guilt.

What other type of guilt is there? And what type of guilt did He bear?

 

[bling]

That’s outside the scope of this thread. This thread is about propitiation.

Propitiation has to do with reconciliation, where man is the one that has to change to come to God, since God does not change. God is doing everything He can to help man to just accept His help. Those who accept God can help, but those who refuse to the point of never be willing to accept God help are not reconciled, they do not want God's help.

 

[Hammster]

Propitiation has to do with reconciliation, where man is the one that has to change to come to God, since God does not change. God is doing everything He can to help man to just accept His help. Those who accept God can help, but those who refuse to the point of never be willing to accept God help are not reconciled, they do not want God's help.

Propitiation is the satisfaction of God’s wrath against sin.

 

[bling]

Propitiation is the satisfaction of God’s wrath against sin.

Propitiation

The Greek word ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) appears in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5, and nowhere else in the New Testament. In Hebrews 9:5 the A.V. translates ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) as 'mercy seat'. But in Romans, it is stated that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God who has freely declared righteous those with faith in Christ Jesus:

Biblical Meaning of Propitiation: Concretely it specifically means the lid of The Ark of The Covenant. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:21; Exodus 30:6).

There is just a lot of speculation on what “propitiation” means and is left to the reader. Jesus is definitely our “atonement sacrifice”, but trying to add more to the unique word “hilastérion”, has little specific support. Do you feel God has to offer up Christ as a sacrifice to change His attitude or mind?

I see, Christ’s atoning sacrifice providing an opportunity to change our attitude and mind, so we can experience a closer relationship with our Father, as a result of going through God’s disciplining of us as we are crucified with Christ.

 

[zoidar]

Propitiation

The Greek word ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) appears in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5, and nowhere else in the New Testament. In Hebrews 9:5 the A.V. translates ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) as 'mercy seat'. But in Romans, it is stated that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God who has freely declared righteous those with faith in Christ Jesus:

Biblical Meaning of Propitiation: Concretely it specifically means the lid of The Ark of The Covenant. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:21; Exodus 30:6).

There is just a lot of speculation on what “propitiation” means and is left to the reader. Jesus is definitely our “atonement sacrifice”, but trying to add more to the unique word “hilastérion”, has little specific support. Do you feel God has to offer up Christ as a sacrifice to change His attitude or mind?

I see, Christ’s atoning sacrifice providing an opportunity to change our attitude and mind, so we can experience a closer relationship with our Father, as a result of going through God’s disciplining of us as we are crucified with Christ.

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
— 1 John 4:10

Hilasmos

The connection between hilasmos and hilastērion I don't know.

 

[Hammster]

Propitiation

The Greek word ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) appears in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5, and nowhere else in the New Testament. In Hebrews 9:5 the A.V. translates ἱλαστήριον (hilastérion) as 'mercy seat'. But in Romans, it is stated that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God who has freely declared righteous those with faith in Christ Jesus:

Biblical Meaning of Propitiation: Concretely it specifically means the lid of The Ark of The Covenant. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth, which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:21; Exodus 30:6).

There is just a lot of speculation on what “propitiation” means and is left to the reader. Jesus is definitely our “atonement sacrifice”, but trying to add more to the unique word “hilastérion”, has little specific support. Do you feel God has to offer up Christ as a sacrifice to change His attitude or mind?

I see, Christ’s atoning sacrifice providing an opportunity to change our attitude and mind, so we can experience a closer relationship with our Father, as a result of going through God’s disciplining of us as we are crucified with Christ.

I know you see that. But it doesn’t fit scripture. Either Christ’s blood atoned for all sin, and if it did there’d be no need for eternal punishment; or it atoned for all sin it was intended to atone for. This view fits scripture.

 

[bling]

I know you see that. But it doesn’t fit scripture. Either Christ’s blood atoned for all sin, and if it did there’d be no need for eternal punishment; or it atoned for all sin it was intended to atone for. This view fits scripture.

No there is another way, The atonement sacrifice is the "ransom payment" which will allow the child within you to be redeemed/set free to go to the father in the Kingdom, but you the criminal kidnapper is holding the child back refusing to accept the ransom payment ("Jesus Christ and Him crucified"), accepting the ransom payment will set the child free.
The blood is for all sins and all people but faith is a contingency.