Propitiation

[d taylor]

Makes sense if you study it. Christ paid for ALL sin. So what is going on if not all are saved? Human good(which is evil.) Why was Christ most enraged with the religious people of His time and not all the sinners? Human good. They were trying to save themselves with their 'good' deeds.

It's worth a look. And it answers how all sin can be paid for, yet people still will perish.

You are close. All sin has been accounted for by Jesus, but all are not saved because of human good.

All are not saved because they never received the free gift of The Life of God (Eternal Life), why because they never believed in Jesus, which is the only condition required by God to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and become a permanent born again child of God.

So an unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire because they lack the one thing required to spend eternity living with God, which is God's Life. They remain living throughout eternity in the lake of fire, with their dead spirit they were born with.

 

[Gr8Grace]

You are close. All sin has been accounted for by Jesus, but all not not saved because of human good.

All are not saved because they never received the free gift of The Life of God (Eternal Life), why because they never believed in Jesus, which is the only condition required by God to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and become a permanent born again child of God.

So an unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire because they lack the one thing required to spend eternity living with God, which is God's Life. They remain living throughout eternity in the lake of fire, with their dead spirit they were born with.

Agreed. And we see at the Great white throne judgement they were judged by their deeds(works)
Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

They never trusted in Christ alone and never received His free gift of eternal life. They get to 'plead' their case with their "good' deeds.

 

[Gr8Grace]

You are close. All sin has been accounted for by Jesus, but all not not saved because of human good.

All are not saved because they never received the free gift of The Life of God (Eternal Life), why because they never believed in Jesus, which is the only condition required by God to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and become a permanent born again child of God.

So an unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire because they lack the one thing required to spend eternity living with God, which is God's Life. They remain living throughout eternity in the lake of fire, with their dead spirit they were born with.

And.....good to see you're still on this forum contending for the Lord Jesus Christ and the faith brother.

 

[bling]

They never trusted in Christ alone and never received His free gift of eternal life. They get to 'plead' their case with their "good' deeds.

Yes. The atonement is provided for all conditionally. It only benefits those who repent. So those who don't repent will go to hell. You can lead a horse to water (provision), but you cannot make him drink (receive the provision).

All are not saved because they never received the free gift of The Life of God (Eternal Life), why because they never believed in Jesus, which is the only condition required by God to receive His free gift of Eternal Life and become a permanent born again child of God.

So an unbeliever ends up in the lake of fire because they lack the one thing required to spend eternity living with God, which is God's Life. They remain living throughout eternity in the lake of fire, with their dead spirit they were born with.

The question is: "Why is everyone's sins not atoned for and thus saved?"
We add conditions that are really not addressed with atonement.
Think about this:
We go to the nonbelieving sinner to try to get them to humbly accept "Jesus Christ and Him crucified". He does not have to accept the Bible, our church, some doctrine or theology, but the person (deity) and what the deity did.
If the person humbly truly accepts "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" a child is set free to enters the Kingdom to be with his Father, but if the sinner refuses "Jesus Christ and Him crucified", a child is held back from entering the Kingdom and being with his Father.
That very much sounds like a kidnapping scenario with an unbelievable huge ransom paid by the Deity, real freedom being obtained by the child, the child going to his/her parent, and a criminal kidnapper accepting or rejecting the ransom. Atonement is described as an actual ransoming and setting free by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and the writer of Hebrews.
The acceptance or rejection of the ransom payment (Biblically defined as Jesus Christ and Him crucified) is up to the sinner.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

If Jesus bought a ticket to a movie theater for everyone in the world He is not obligated to give that ticket to everyone. He can give it to whoever He chooses.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Outside of universalism isn't that the only view we're left with?

No because because just because He paid the price doesn’t mean He’s obligated to apply it to everyone. I can buy a ticket to a movie theatre for everyone in the world, it doesn’t mean that I’m obligated to give one to everyone.

 

[bling]

If Jesus bought a ticket to a movie theater for everyone in the world He is not obligated to give that ticket to everyone. He can give it to whoever He chooses.

Does Christ's Love not obligate Him, to be consistent toward all people?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does Christ's Love not obligate Him, to be consistent toward all people?

John 3:16-18 answers this question.

”“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.“
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So it’s not those whom God loves that will be saved but those who believe and abide in Christ who will be saved.

And Luke 13:6-9 makes it clear that not everyone whom Jesus tried to save will be saved.

”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Christ made a way for all to be saved, but it’s up to each individual to choose to love Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But not really, though. Your first post suggested a sorta appeasement or a sorta reconciliation.

Just because John said that Christ is the appeasement of the whole world doesn’t mean that the whole world has been reconciled to God. It means the whole world can be reconciled to Him. He is the perfect sacrifice worthy and sufficient to reconcile all mankind thru His one sacrifice if He so chooses.

 

[ozso]

No because because just because He paid the price doesn’t mean He’s obligated to apply it to everyone. I can buy a ticket to a movie theatre for everyone in the world, it doesn’t mean that I’m obligated to give one to everyone.

I said outside of universalism isn't that view, the one the OP expressed and you just repeated, the only one we're left with? A "no" to my question means supplying a view (other than universalism) that's different from the OP.

 

[bling]

John 3:16-18 answers this question.

”“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.“
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So it’s not those whom God loves that will be saved but those who believe and abide in Christ who will be saved.

And Luke 13:6-9 makes it clear that not everyone whom Jesus tried to save will be saved.

”And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13‬:‭6‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Christ made a way for all to be saved, but it’s up to each individual to choose to love Him.

Being consistently Loving toward all people does not mean all are saved: you just give the ticket (invitation to the banquet) to everyone, but it is up to them to accept or reject the invitation.

 

[d taylor]

The question is: "Why is everyone's sins not atoned for and thus saved?"
We add conditions that are really not addressed with atonement.
Think about this:
We go to the nonbelieving sinner to try to get them to humbly accept "Jesus Christ and Him crucified". He does not have to accept the Bible, our church, some doctrine or theology, but the person (deity) and what the deity did.
If the person humbly truly accepts "Jesus Christ and Him crucified" a child is set free to enters the Kingdom to be with his Father, but if the sinner refuses "Jesus Christ and Him crucified", a child is held back from entering the Kingdom and being with his Father.
That very much sounds like a kidnapping scenario with an unbelievable huge ransom paid by the Deity, real freedom being obtained by the child, the child going to his/her parent, and a criminal kidnapper accepting or rejecting the ransom. Atonement is described as an actual ransoming and setting free by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, and the writer of Hebrews.
The acceptance or rejection of the ransom payment (Biblically defined as Jesus Christ and Him crucified) is up to the sinner.

The question is: "Why is everyone's sins not atoned for and thus saved?"

Because receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life has nothing to do with sin. I know many preachers and their followers have made sin a condition, but that is not a condition given by God.

That is why there is no inclusion or mention of sin as a condition when Jesus states what a person must do to receive Eternal Life in The Gospel of John. Jesus gives the condition again and again believe in Him (Jesus)

 

[bling]

The question is: "Why is everyone's sins not atoned for and thus saved?"

Because receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life has nothing to do with sin. I know many preachers and their followers have made sin a condition, but that is not a condition given by God.

That is why there is no inclusion or mention of sin as a condition when Jesus states what a person must do to receive Eternal Life in The Gospel of John. Jesus gives the condition again and again believe in Him (Jesus)

At your death, if your sins have been forgiven (thus you are sinless before God) will you enter heaven?
If your sins have not been forgiven at your death, will you go to hell?
What does it mean to: "Believe in Jesus"?

 

[Clare73]

The question is: "Why is everyone's sins not atoned for and thus saved?"

Because receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life has nothing to do with sin.

First of all, while the gift is free to to the sinner, it was not free to the purchaser.
It was bought at a terrible price.

Secondly, eternal life has everything to do with sin, for it is the release from the guilt of Adam's sin and the impartation through saving faith of God's own divine eternal life to the born again (Eph 2:8-9).
There is no eternal life where the guilt of Adam's sin into which one is born (Ro 5:18) is not paid for and cancelled (i.e, "forgiven").
That payment comes with saving faith in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit, whereby Christ's atonement for sin is applied to the sin of the born again, thus cancelling (forgiving) that guilt.

I know many preachers and their followers have made sin a condition, but that is not a condition given by God.

That is why there is no inclusion or mention of sin as a condition when Jesus states what a person must do to receive Eternal Life in The Gospel of John. Jesus gives the condition again and again believe in Him (Jesus)

Which belief in and trust on his atoning work is forgiveness of the condemning sin of Adam into which everyone is born (Ro 5:18).
Adam's one trespass resulted in condemnation for all men born of Adam (Ro 5:18),
just as Christ's one act of obedience (on the cross) resulted in salvation for all men born of Christ's own Holy Spirit (Ro 5:19, 2 Co 3:17-18).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Being consistently Loving toward all people does not mean all are saved: you just give the ticket (invitation to the banquet) to everyone, but it is up to them to accept or reject the invitation.

Not everyone who says Lotd Lord to Me will enter the kingdom of Heaven. This is an example of people who have willingly accepted the invitation but are not permitted to enter.

 

[BBAS 64]

Not everyone who says Lotd Lord to Me will enter the kingdom of Heaven. This is an example of people who have willingly accepted the invitation but are not permitted to enter.

Good day,

Umm no, let look at the text:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Willingly accepted an "invitation" certainly not here it the text.

You have a group of people who did things in the Lords name some of them mighty. They thought that doing so would be the "key" to entering the kingdom, they were mistaken.

He told them to depart because he never knew them, he never choose to have a relationship with them.

In the end it was not about what they did or did not do , but what Jesus does or does not do.

In Him,

Bill

 

[bling]

Not everyone who says Lotd Lord to Me will enter the kingdom of Heaven. This is an example of people who have willingly accepted the invitation but are not permitted to enter.

No, it is not.
There are lots of people in the USA especially, who call themselves "Christians", but have not humbled themselves to the point of accepting (begging) for pure undeserved, unconditional, unselfish charity (forgiveness of the unbelievable huge debt their sins created). They may think their personal sins were not that bad (they are a lot better than most people, or they are automatically forgiven, since they are part on the elect (not up to them to accept).

 

[d taylor]

At your death, if your sins have been forgiven (thus you are sinless before God) will you enter heaven?
If your sins have not been forgiven at your death, will you go to hell?
What does it mean to: "Believe in Jesus"?

Not if that person whose sin has been forgiven, has never believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. They end up at the great white throne judgment.

I can not answer your second statement as Jesus has taken away all sin for every person.

What does it mean to "Believe in Jesus", i will let The Bible speak to this.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

If you need a longer written examination of what is belief in Jesus, here are a few articles read them if you like.
What Does It Mean to Believe in Jesus? – Grace Evangelical Society

Believing That Jesus Is the Christ, the Son of God (John 20:31) – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[d taylor]

At your death, if your sins have been forgiven (thus you are sinless before God) will you enter heaven?
If your sins have not been forgiven at your death, will you go to hell?
What does it mean to: "Believe in Jesus"?

-
​

Can you name a person or person's who Jesus' death and resurrection did not cover their sin.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

A little reading on Propitiation:

https://faithalone.org//wp-content/uploads/2019/11/4_hodges.pdf

How Is Jesus the Propitiation of the World? (1 John 1:5-10, 2:2, and 1 Corinthians 6:8-12) – Grace Evangelical Society

Jesus Is the Propitiation for All, But Only the Mercy Seat for Believers: Romans 3:25 and 1 John 2:2 – Grace Evangelical Society