Propitiation

[zoidar]

What other type of guilt is there? And what type of guilt did He bear?

I think David Allen gives a quite good explanation of the idea of legal and moral dept. 3 minutes!

Edit: I do have to add, this was not the exact idea I initially had, but I have to think more about it. My idea is not too far from Dr. Allen's.

 

[contratodo]

You can’t have Christ taking all the punishment for all the sin in all of history, and still have someone punished for that sin.

In all history, past present and future?
And so those punished for sin in the old testament, what of them?

Sin is transgression against the Torah
1 John 3:4

If anyone does not obey the Torah, and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, they do not have God.
Whoever abides in the teachings of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:9 [His doctrine Matthew 7:28]

Christ took the penalty for our sins against the Torah.
The good news is that one need only follow Christ, not the Torah.
Our sins against the Torah have been paid for by Christ.

We must obey the good news Christ taught or face damnation.

To you who are troubled, rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from the sky, with His holy angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10

It is Christ who preached the gospel; Luke 4:14-21.

 

[Hammster]

No there is another way, The atonement sacrifice is the "ransom payment" which will allow the child within you to be redeemed/set free to go to the father in the Kingdom, but you the criminal kidnapper is holding the child back refusing to accept the ransom payment ("Jesus Christ and Him crucified"), accepting the ransom payment will set the child free.
The blood is for all sins and all people but faith is a contingency.

No. The atonement actually does something for particular people. The Day of Atonement is a type and shadow of Christ’s atonement. Both are only for God’s people.

 

[Hammster]

I think David Allen gives a quite good explanation of the idea of legal and moral dept. 3 minutes!

Edit: I do have to add, this was not the exact idea I initially had, but I have to think more about it. My idea is not too far from Dr. Allen's.

If this is true, we pay for part of the atonement. Jesus does part of it, and we do the rest.

 

[Hammster]

In all history, past present and future?
And so those punished for sin in the old testament, what of them?

Sin is transgression against the Torah
1 John 3:4

If anyone does not obey the Torah, and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, they do not have God.
Whoever abides in the teachings of Christ, has both the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:9 [His doctrine Matthew 7:28]

Christ took the penalty for our sins against the Torah.
The good news is that one need only follow Christ, not the Torah.
Our sins against the Torah have been paid for by Christ.

We must obey the good news Christ taught or face damnation.

To you who are troubled, rest with us,
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from the sky, with His holy angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,
and that obey not the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10

It is Christ who preached the gospel; Luke 4:14-21.

If our sins are paid for by Christ, is God’s wrath satisfied against all who sin?

 

[contratodo]

If our sins are paid for by Christ, is God’s wrath satisfied against all who sin?

Our sins against the Torah are paid for.

For if we sin willingly (defiantly against Christ) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (Christs teachings are the truth)
there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised the Torah died without mercy under two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy,
who has trampled under foot the Son of God (His teachings as opposed to Moses law, the Torah),
and has counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, a common thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:27-29

He who does not provide for his own, especially they of his own household,
has denied the faith and is worse than a non believer. 1 Timothy 5:8

He that has my teachings and keeps them, he it is that loves me.
He that does not keep my teachings does not love me.
John 14:21-24

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22


My sheep hear my voice, I know them (they that hear), and they follow me, and I give unto them (they that hear) eternal life,
and no man shall pluck them (they that hear) out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

I say unto you that hear.....
Luke 6:27


We get eternal life for actually following Jesus, not for just believing about Jesus, but for heeding His words and following His voice.

Jesus paid the requirement of the Torah, instituting the new covenant, which is Gods law literally on the hearts and minds of His people.
[Jeremiah 31:33]

Jesus is the Messenger of the covenant, the Messiah.

I say unto you that hear, love your enemies, do good to them that hate you....

In conclusion, whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do you even so to them
(treat people the way you want to be treated) for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:12

One can literally memorize that easily, having it in mind, and by living it out one has it in heart,
thereby literally under the new covenant, given by Christ.
One believing that Christ rose from the dead, should also therefore have desire
to memorize at least that one statement of His and live it out.
Paul and the apostles explain that by believing, one gets the Holy Spirit
which equips that person to express the love Christ taught.

 

[zoidar]

If this is true, we pay for part of the atonement. Jesus does part of it, and we do the rest.

I might agree with that. If we don't have faith (repentance and faith is our part) it's not a complete atonement, but an atoning sacrifice.

 

[bling]

No. The atonement actually does something for particular people. The Day of Atonement is a type and shadow of Christ’s atonement. Both are only for God’s people.

The day of Atonement is corporate act for the nation of Israel for sins the person was not sure he even committed, while Lev. 5 gives the atonement process for sins you know you committed even if they are almost accidental (unintentional). This fits much better the atonement process for Christians major sins.

 

[bling]

I might agree with that. If we don't have faith (repentance and faith is our part) it's not a complete atonement, but an atoning sacrifice.

Jesus was the atonement sacrifice but not the whole atonement process, man 's part is in humbly accepting what Jesus did for them.

 

[Hammster]

Our sins against the Torah are paid for.

For if we sin willingly (defiantly against Christ) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (Christs teachings are the truth)
there remains no more sacrifice for sin.
But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised the Torah died without mercy under two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, suppose ye, shall he be counted worthy,
who has trampled under foot the Son of God (His teachings as opposed to Moses law, the Torah),
and has counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, a common thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:27-29

He who does not provide for his own, especially they of his own household,
has denied the faith and is worse than a non believer. 1 Timothy 5:8

He that has my teachings and keeps them, he it is that loves me.
He that does not keep my teachings does not love me.
John 14:21-24

If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let that person be Anathema! Oh Lord Come!
1 Corinthians 16:22


My sheep hear my voice, I know them (they that hear), and they follow me, and I give unto them (they that hear) eternal life,
and no man shall pluck them (they that hear) out of my hand.
John 10:27-28

I say unto you that hear.....
Luke 6:27


We get eternal life for actually following Jesus, not for just believing about Jesus, but for heeding His words and following His voice.

Jesus paid the requirement of the Torah, instituting the new covenant, which is Gods law literally on the hearts and minds of His people.
[Jeremiah 31:33]

Jesus is the Messenger of the covenant, the Messiah.

I say unto you that hear, love your enemies, do good to them that hate you....

In conclusion, whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do you even so to them
(treat people the way you want to be treated) for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:12

One can literally memorize that easily, having it in mind, and by living it out one has it in heart,
thereby literally under the new covenant, given by Christ.
One believing that Christ rose from the dead, should also therefore have desire
to memorize at least that one statement of His and live it out.
Paul and the apostles explain that by believing, one gets the Holy Spirit
which equips that person to express the love Christ taught.

So anyway, if our sins are paid for by Christ, is God’s wrath satisfied against all who sin? That was the question I asked. I saw neither a yes or a no in your response.

 

[Hammster]

I might agree with that. If we don't have faith (repentance and faith is our part) it's not a complete atonement, but an atoning sacrifice.

That’s way too man-centered for me. I believe salvation is all of Christ. I bring nothing worthwhile to the table.

 

[zoidar]

That’s way too man-centered for me. I believe salvation is all of Christ. I bring nothing worthwhile to the table.

I know you believe it's God's decree from the beginning to the end. I don't hold that view. The Lutheran view is appealing to me, but since I doubt it's correct, it's hard for me to follow, even I love much of their teaching. Lutherans teach if you are saved it's all God, if you are lost it's because of you, which might sound like a contradiction, but that is what they say anyway.

 

[Samson2021]

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:1-2

It’s is commonly understood that propitiation is the atoning sacrifice that appeases God’s wrath. That’s the definition I’m going with here. Looking at this passage, we can conclude one of two things. God's wrath was satisfied for some or for all. Those who think it’s for all take “whole world” prima facia and say God loved the whole world and bore the sins of every man. Those who say it’s only for some look at the context and see the “our sins” as John’s immediate audience, and “whole world” as indicating that it’s just not his audience, but others throughout the world.

My argument against the former is that if God’s wrath is satisfied by His Son’s sacrifice, then He would be unjust for sending anyone to hell. It would be akin to someone paying off my house in full, yet the bank foreclosing on my house. That would not be just.

So it’s best to see “whole world” as referencing people throughout the world, as opposed to every single person in the world.

I would like to jump in here.
1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But EVERY man in his own order, Christ the first fruits, then they which are Christs at His coming...............

The head of the body first, then another portion of the body at the close of this time or dispensation.

As you noted Jesus died for the sin of the entire world, thus the sin debt like the mortgage on your house has been paid for everybodys house.
He died for ALL to be testified in due TIME.
I can't do this in short order so I will only give what I think might be read for now.

Other versions of 1 Co 15:23 state "There is an order to this resurrection, Christ is the first of the harvest, then those that are Christs' at His coming then cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.

Now add in Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of the TIMES He might gather together in one(body) ALL things in Christ...........
Now add Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgement came upon ALL men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

Lets look at those verses.
1)ALL shall be made alive in Christ............not everyone that is a christian when He comes but ALL, but not ALL at the close of this time period.
2)ALL have been justified unto life by the one righteous act, the self sacrifice of the Son, and it is a FREE GIFT.
3)That when the TIMES have been fulfilled ALL things are to be gathered together in one(body of Christ)

Eph 2:15-16 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself
of two (Jew and Gentile) one new man (Christ as head of the body), so making peace. And that He might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile)
unto God in one body (body of Christ) by the cross(his righteous act) having slain the enmity thereby.

The new body is Christ with Jesus as the head. When the body in its fullness will have come, the ALL will have been made alive, and death will have been destroyed as the last enemy, The ALL have been justified by His sacrifice, the ALL are to receive life through being born of the spirit as a FREE GIFT, and ALL will be in Christ(the body) WHEN the TIMES have been fulfilled. How many TIMES? Jubilee is all I will say for now.

The TIME we live in now is the FIRST death. The next is the second death.

Add Jas 1:18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.
How does that occur? By being born of the Spirit freely as a gift as it is an election according to grace.
Add Rom 11 and see that the broken off branches are no different than the grafted in branches, and that we are to not be conceited
in our own minds that we have done anything at all to deserve being grafted in as there is no difference between the ones broken off and us, also note that ALL Israel shall be saved by grafting them in again through faith. Why are they not believers now? Because God hath blinded them and hardened their hearts. Who among us that truly is an elect did not have his blinders removed and his heart softened by grace so that he could believe?
Back to Jas 1:18 if we are a kind of first fruits of Gods creatures and all are to be reconciled back to God through Christ(the one body) by
the FREE GIFT then who is left out? Nobody.
The only problem is the Bible says extremely little about the next dispensation of time in which the second fruits will be perfected just
as the first in this time.
Afterall a kind of FIRST fruits is usually followed by a second, Jesus was the first of the first of the harvest, then a small group according to election- a larger, number wise harvest,then another portion termed the MOUNTAIN of ESAU, Oba 1:21 Esau being the non elect of God in the whole dispensation we live in now about 6,000 yrs worth.
Who are the saviors on Mt Zion in Oba 1:21 ? Those that were perfected during this dispensation. Why are they called saviors?
For Just as Jesus was perfected and became the Captain of our salvation, so to they have been perfected and will do the same to/for the next
group for they are the ones who will bear fruit some 30, some 60 and some an hundred fold. As many as their Father shall give them.
The Kingdom only lasts 1000 yrs as a Sabbath then the next dispensation starts.
The spiritual language used depicts, if seen literally, death and destruction but spiritually the words that were spoken are spirit
and they are life. Just as Jesus said.
I know this is hurried and not as good as it should be but the basics are there for a spiritually minded elect to see the picture.

And once you see it you will be free indeed to worship God in spirit and in truth, and kiss the Son, for you will now know the truth.

 

[zoidar]

That’s way too man-centered for me. I believe salvation is all of Christ. I bring nothing worthwhile to the table.

I was bit confused by this post. It's not an argument, and I don't fully know how to respond to it. It almost feels like an accusation. Man-centered has a negative ring to it. I too believe salvation is all of Christ, in that we can't save ourselves and it's all mercy. I don't know if we bring something worthwhile to the table. It depends what you mean we might bring and worthwhile for what?

 

[Hammster]

I was bit confused by this post. It's not an argument, and I don't fully know how to respond to it. It almost feels like an accusation. Man-centered has a negative ring to it. I too believe salvation is all of Christ, in that we can't save ourselves and it's all mercy. I don't know if we bring something worthwhile to the table. It depends what you mean we might bring and worthwhile for what?

There is a negative ring because it’s negative statement.

You are saying that unless we do something, we are not saved. That means it’s God plus us. So for you, God’s wrath isn’t practically satisfied until we repent.

So in your view, Christ bears the legal guilt for sin, while we bear the moral guilt for sin. I just don’t find that in scripture. And it makes me co-redemptor.

 

[Hammster]

I would like to jump in here.
1 Co 15:22-23 As in Adam ALL die even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive. But EVERY man in his own order, Christ the first fruits, then they which are Christs at His coming...............

The head of the body first, then another portion of the body at the close of this time or dispensation.

As you noted Jesus died for the sin of the entire world, thus the sin debt like the mortgage on your house has been paid for everybodys house.
He died for ALL to be testified in due TIME.
I can't do this in short order so I will only give what I think might be read for now.

Other versions of 1 Co 15:23 state "There is an order to this resurrection, Christ is the first of the harvest, then those that are Christs' at His coming then cometh the end when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father.

Now add in Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of the TIMES He might gather together in one(body) ALL things in Christ...........
Now add Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgement came upon ALL men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the FREE GIFT came upon ALL men unto justification of life.

Lets look at those verses.
1)ALL shall be made alive in Christ............not everyone that is a christian when He comes but ALL, but not ALL at the close of this time period.
2)ALL have been justified unto life by the one righteous act, the self sacrifice of the Son, and it is a FREE GIFT.
3)That when the TIMES have been fulfilled ALL things are to be gathered together in one(body of Christ)

Eph 2:15-16 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself
of two (Jew and Gentile) one new man (Christ as head of the body), so making peace. And that He might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile)
unto God in one body (body of Christ) by the cross(his righteous act) having slain the enmity thereby.

The new body is Christ with Jesus as the head. When the body in its fullness will have come, the ALL will have been made alive, and death will have been destroyed as the last enemy, The ALL have been justified by His sacrifice, the ALL are to receive life through being born of the spirit as a FREE GIFT, and ALL will be in Christ(the body) WHEN the TIMES have been fulfilled. How many TIMES? Jubilee is all I will say for now.

The TIME we live in now is the FIRST death. The next is the second death.

Add Jas 1:18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.
How does that occur? By being born of the Spirit freely as a gift as it is an election according to grace.
Add Rom 11 and see that the broken off branches are no different than the grafted in branches, and that we are to not be conceited
in our own minds that we have done anything at all to deserve being grafted in as there is no difference between the ones broken off and us, also note that ALL Israel shall be saved by grafting them in again through faith. Why are they not believers now? Because God hath blinded them and hardened their hearts. Who among us that truly is an elect did not have his blinders removed and his heart softened by grace so that he could believe?
Back to Jas 1:18 if we are a kind of first fruits of Gods creatures and all are to be reconciled back to God through Christ(the one body) by
the FREE GIFT then who is left out? Nobody.
The only problem is the Bible says extremely little about the next dispensation of time in which the second fruits will be perfected just
as the first in this time.
Afterall a kind of FIRST fruits is usually followed by a second, Jesus was the first of the first of the harvest, then a small group according to election- a larger, number wise harvest,then another portion termed the MOUNTAIN of ESAU, Oba 1:21 Esau being the non elect of God in the whole dispensation we live in now about 6,000 yrs worth.
Who are the saviors on Mt Zion in Oba 1:21 ? Those that were perfected during this dispensation. Why are they called saviors?
For Just as Jesus was perfected and became the Captain of our salvation, so to they have been perfected and will do the same to/for the next
group for they are the ones who will bear fruit some 30, some 60 and some an hundred fold. As many as their Father shall give them.
The Kingdom only lasts 1000 yrs as a Sabbath then the next dispensation starts.
The spiritual language used depicts, if seen literally, death and destruction but spiritually the words that were spoken are spirit
and they are life. Just as Jesus said.
I know this is hurried and not as good as it should be but the basics are there for a spiritually minded elect to see the picture.

And once you see it you will be free indeed to worship God in spirit and in truth, and kiss the Son, for you will now know the truth.

I can’t see how this relates to the OP.

 

[zoidar]

There is a negative ring because it’s negative statement.

You are saying that unless we do something, we are not saved. That means it’s God plus us.

To be clear, do you believe we are saved before we have faith? If not, we agree we need to have faith to be saved, which means our faith together with God's atonement sacrifice leads to salvation.

So for you, God’s wrath isn’t practically satisfied until we repent.

This is a good question. I would ask you how come Paul was a child of wrath after the crucifixion, before he had come to faith, if God's wrath was already satisfied?

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:3-6

So in your view, Christ bears the legal guilt for sin, while we bear the moral guilt for sin. I just don’t find that in scripture. And it makes me co-redemptor.

You need to expand on that, how it makes me a co-redemptor. Isn't this like saying if I call the police to catch a burglar at my house I'm a co-officer?

Legal and moral guilt are not terms used in Scripture. But it gives you a good idea why we need faith to be saved. It needs to be explained somehow. The Scripture doesn't clearly explain why. It gives us a broad idea, but not the details. So there is where philosophy comes in.

 

[Samson2021]

I can’t see how this relates to the OP.

That is what the propitiation bought, and what the propitiation will have grown into, when each individual understands that Jesus Christ
died for each and ALL 1 Jo 2:2 to be testified in due TIME. 1 Ti 2:4 For the Father desires/will have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
The grown into is the body of Christ continually being added to until ALL are made alive in Christ. That is the moment death will have been destroyed as there will be no more humans able to die. Death swallowed up in victory! This occurs for each and for all.
Eph 2:15-16 The body is the body of Christ as a group, the new man is the body of Christ as a group with Jesus as the head. The two are the Jews and the Gentiles. And ALL are to be reconciled back to the Father through the one body.

 

[contratodo]

So anyway, if our sins are paid for by Christ, is God’s wrath satisfied against all who sin? That was the question I asked. I saw neither a yes or a no in your response.

The scripture answers your response, Christ paid the price for sins against the Torah, not for blatant sin against Himself.
The good news is that all that is required is following Christ instead of the Torah.
Those who despised Moses law died on the account of two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment shall he be counted worthy who despises Jesus' simple teachings?
That is what the Bible is saying to us, God's wrath for disobedience against the Torah is satisfied,
in the end, as Paul said, Jesus comes to do vengeance, wrath, in flaming fire, against those who
"obey not the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Paul is referring to the message from Jesus not his own message. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, as I quoted for you already.

 

[Hammster]

To be clear, do you believe we are saved before we have faith? If not, we agree we need to have faith to be saved, which means our faith together with God's atonement sacrifice leads to salvation.

We are regenerated before we have faith. We are justified afterwards. It’s with our new heart, given after our new birth, that we exercise faith.

This is a good question. I would ask you how come Paul was a child of wrath after the crucifixion, before he had come to faith, if God's wrath was already satisfied?

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
— Ephesians 2:3-6

If you look closely, he doesn’t say he was a child of wrath, but that his nature was the same as those who were children of wrath.

You need to expand on that, how it makes me a co-redemptor. Isn't this like saying if I call the police to catch a burglar at my house I'm a co-officer?

Because Christ isn’t bearing the penalty for all of your sin. You are bearing some of it.

Legal and moral guilt are not terms used in Scripture. But it gives you a good idea why we need faith to be saved. It needs to be explained somehow. The Scripture doesn't clearly explain why. It gives us a broad idea, but not the details. So there is where philosophy comes in.

Not only are they not terms used in scripture, you can’t find the idea. You have to create it in order to make your view plausible.