Propitiation

[Hammster]

They cannot want to, since they are not capable of wanting to.

Okay.

 

[bling]

No, He hasn’t. Just a cursory read of the OT will show you that.

You are mistaking discipline and judgement for lacking Love and grace.

Yes, there are some innocent ignorant people who die before reaching the maturity needed to decide to accept or reject God’s help/charity/Love/graciousness/forgiveness, but that does not mean they went to hell.

Let’s start with the majority of the religious leaders.

The opposite of Love is not rebuking, correcting, teaching and scolding someone, but being apathetic toward them. Jesus was just trying to help them take their next needed positive spiritual step.

I’m saying that He doesn’t need to do anything for someone to be born a goat.

How is the birth of a person not a miracle of God?

Are you expecting a different answer the third time around?

I am hoping you have learned something.

And He told them the cause of their disbelief.

esus showed them and taught them, but they refused to listen.

Will not, not cannot.

So, God made some people, so they will not believe?

Why would God make people so they will not believe?

 

[Samson2021]

Why would God make people so they will not believe?

To perfect His elect.
Rom 11:29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake.............
Speaking of the UNBELIEVING Jews of the day and by extension, any non believer in this day.

 

[Hammster]

You are mistaking discipline and judgement for lacking Love and grace.

No, I’m not.

Yes, there are some innocent ignorant people who die before reaching the maturity needed to decide to accept or reject God’s

There are no innocent people. For all have sinned…

help/charity/Love/graciousness/forgiveness, but that does not mean they went to hell.

You have an unbiblical view of hell. So let’s move on.

The opposite of Love is not rebuking, correcting, teaching and scolding someone, but being apathetic toward them. Jesus was just trying to help them take their next needed positive spiritual step.

No, He wasn’t.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
— John 8:44-47

How is the birth of a person not a miracle of God?

It happens every day. Thats not miraculous.

I am hoping you have learned something.

I’m learning that you don’t remember my answers to questions.

esus showed them and taught them, but they refused to listen.

And He explained why. They were not His sheep.

So, God made some people, so they will not believe?

No, He chose some that He would change their hearts so that they would believe.

Why would God make people so they will not believe?

He didn’t.

 

[bling]

To perfect His elect.
Rom 11:29 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake.............
Speaking of the UNBELIEVING Jews of the day and by extension, any non believer in this day.

Ro. 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Verse 32 says everyone has been bound over to disobedience, so it is not “God make some people, so they will not believe?”

Ours and other people sinning, helps us all, “everyone”, to need God’s mercy and thus turn to God.

 

[Samson2021]

Ro. 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Verse 32 says everyone has been bound over to disobedience, so it is not “God make some people, so they will not believe?”

Ours and other people sinning, helps us all, “everyone”, to need God’s mercy and thus turn to God.

Your understanding is lacking. In order to perfect those that the Father has called, it is necessary for the majority of the world
to be non believers. Enemies for our sake. He is perfecting faith in a faithless world, He is perfecting love in a loveless world
in a small group.
If everybody was saved today it wouldn't mean much as far as your faith being perfected for you would not suffer much if any.
Jesus went entirely alone on that journey and suffered much. We too who are the called of God must suffer with Him in
order to rule with Him.

And as you pointed out vs 32 How do you get away from God having mercy on them ALL? It's all in the timing and few can see it.

I would ask what testimony have you of your Holy Ghost baptism?

 

[zoidar]

Your understanding is lacking. In order to perfect those that the Father has called, it is necessary for the majority of the world
to be non believers. Enemies for our sake. He is perfecting faith in a faithless world, He is perfecting love in a loveless world
in a small group.
If everybody was saved today it wouldn't mean much as far as your faith being perfected for you would not suffer much if any.
Jesus went entirely alone on that journey and suffered much. We too who are the called of God must suffer with Him in
order to rule with Him.

And as you pointed out vs 32 How do you get away from God having mercy on them ALL? It's all in the timing and few can see it.

I would ask what testimony have you of your Holy Ghost baptism?

How is God deciding who will be the elect to be perfected and who will be the ones to perfect the elect? Is there a reason Bob will perfect Fred, instead of the other way around?

 

[Samson2021]

How is God deciding who will be the elect to be perfected and who will be the ones to perfect the elect? Is there a reason Bob will perfect Fred, instead of the other way around?

It is strictly according to His election of them. And none that I know of. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith(imputed)
of Jesus Christ UNTO all and UPON all those that believe for there is NO DIFFERENCE.

Rom 9:14-24 speaks to this some.

We have to remember it is God that is doing this, not us. He is the one begetting us of His own will, not ours. Jas 1:18

In seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, you will find that the righteousness of God is the imputing of faith
and love that come from the fullness of Jesus Christ. A man cannot acquire that of his own will, it must be GIVEN to him.
We cannot work for it or do anything that would appear to us as having been worthy for none are. That is self righteousness
and a blinder to the rest. As Jesus said seek ye first those 2 things then the rest would be added. If we do not understand
Gods righteousness then the rest does not follow.

Why Jacob and not Esau?

 

[zoidar]

It is strictly according to His election of them. And none that I know of. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith(imputed)
of Jesus Christ UNTO all and UPON all those that believe for there is NO DIFFERENCE.

Rom 9:14-24 speaks to this some.

We have to remember it is God that is doing this, not us. He is the one begetting us of His own will, not ours. Jas 1:18

In seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, you will find that the righteousness of God is the imputing of faith
and love that come from the fullness of Jesus Christ. A man cannot acquire that of his own will, it must be GIVEN to him.
We cannot work for it or do anything that would appear to us as having been worthy for none are. That is self righteousness
and a blinder to the rest. As Jesus said seek ye first those 2 things then the rest would be added. If we do not understand
Gods righteousness then the rest does not follow.

Why Jacob and not Esau?

Jacob, since God wanted the Messiah to come from the bloodline of Jacob. Why Bob and not Fred?

 

[bling]

There are no innocent people. For all have sinned…

Do you feel new born babies and mentally challenged people sin?

No, He wasn’t.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
— John 8:44-47

There were priests and Pharisees in the church, so could Christ’s rebuking them have helped them?

You are confusing Christ’s rebuking the leadership with His not Loving them, but that is not the way it works in a family.

Just because these Spiritual leaders at the time were sinners (like all mature adults not yet believers) does not mean they could not change in the future.

It happens every day. Thats not miraculous.

Not without God's huge involvement.
If God was not directly involved in giving live to a bunch of molecules, birth would not happ

And He explained why. They were not His sheep.

Again they are not literal sheep, but can be described as being sheep at the time. People can make choices which can change their description from goats to sheep.

No, He chose some that He would change their hearts so that they would believe.

He didn’t.

So man made these people who will not believe?
“Someone” took chemicals and made these living people, who will not believe.

 

[Samson2021]

Jacob, since God wanted the Messiah to come from the bloodline of Jacob. Why Bob and not Fred?

So then you do see there was a reason but it took many generations to get to the reason.
In the same way we will find out that after several AGES the reasons will be much clearer.

 

[bling]

Your understanding is lacking. In order to perfect those that the Father has called, it is necessary for the majority of the world
to be non believers. Enemies for our sake. He is perfecting faith in a faithless world, He is perfecting love in a loveless world
in a small group.

That only “works” if humans are involved in personally making the choice, while you are presenting a programmed human made to make certain choices and thus be a certain way. God is doing the programming and not some harsh environment.

This messed up world is the very best environment for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective and not for any other reason.

If everybody was saved today it wouldn't mean much as far as your faith being perfected for you would not suffer much if any.
Jesus went entirely alone on that journey and suffered much. We too who are the called of God must suffer with Him in
order to rule with Him.

Unfortunately, everyone will not be saved and the lost become examples of what Christians do not want to become or do. We need to humbly accept forgiveness to have Godly type Love. The lost around us provide wonderful opportunities to grow our Love through extending Godly type Love to the lost in hopes they will turn.

And as you pointed out vs 32 How do you get away from God having mercy on them ALL? It's all in the timing and few can see it.

God is merciful and forgiving to all people, but few will humbly accept pure charity as charity.

I would ask what testimony have you of your Holy Ghost baptism?

For many years, I experienced and believed Christianity had no real down side. It was a happy, easy and rewarding life, everyone should jump in. It was a fun easy life for me and I had a great resume and wanted to add prison Bible teaching.

I use to teach “we (Christians) all sin lots of times especially lusting and cannot keep from it, but we are constantly being washed by the blood of Christ, so we are without sin in that case.” That was before I met a group of Christians that risked death for themselves and others by sinning, just any sign of not doing what Christ would be doing in that moment could result in being beaten to death. Here is what happened:

I got thrown into (volunteered to substitute teach) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (“going to school”, it is called), they start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets, they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (granny conversions), but on their first day they are seen watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, they were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. On their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls who then approach these “Christians” saying: “you are not a Christian” (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized, given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could lead to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them. I don’t know if I could go through what they went through.

I had many hard nights praying and crying over those young men. I Loved them and empathetically to some degree suffered with them.

 

[Hammster]

Do you feel new born babies and mentally challenged people sin?

They are in Adam.

There were priests and Pharisees in the church, so could Christ’s rebuking them have helped them?

You are confusing Christ’s rebuking the leadership with His not Loving them, but that is not the way it works in a family.

Just because these Spiritual leaders at the time were sinners (like all mature adults not yet believers) does not mean they could not change in the future.

Your premise is that He was just trying to help them. That’s not reflected in the text.

Not without God's huge involvement.
If God was not directly involved in giving live to a bunch of molecules, birth would not happ

Then everything is a miracle. And if everything is a miracle, then nothing is.

Again they are not literal sheep, but can be described as being sheep at the time. People can make choices which can change their description from goats to sheep.

Not according to John 10. He did not say that they weren’t His sheep because they didn’t believe. He said that the reason they did not believe was because they were not His sheep.

So man made these people who will not believe?
“Someone” took chemicals and made these living people, who will not believe.

Why are you continuing to ask questions that I’ve answered?

 

[bling]

So then you do see there was a reason but it took many generations to get to the reason.
In the same way we will find out that after several AGES the reasons will be much clearer.

Just because Deity uses the word "hate" does not mean God did not also Love Esau. We are to hate and Love our family at the same time as Jesus told us to do.
God could tell Jacob and Esau's disposition, even prior to their birth and God could work with Jacob and could not work with Esau's disposition, which God would hate. Esau was much better than Jacob early on and in the end they were good neighbors, so there is nothing that says Esau went to hell.

 

[Samson2021]

That only “works” if humans are involved in personally making the choice, while you are presenting a programmed human made to make certain choices and thus be a certain way. God is doing the programming and not some harsh environment.

This messed up world is the very best environment for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective and not for any other reason.

Unfortunately, everyone will not be saved and the lost become examples of what Christians do not want to become or do. We need to humbly accept forgiveness to have Godly type Love. The lost around us provide wonderful opportunities to grow our Love through extending Godly type Love to the lost in hopes they will turn.

God is merciful and forgiving to all people, but few will humbly accept pure charity as charity.

For many years, I experienced and believed Christianity had no real down side. It was a happy, easy and rewarding life, everyone should jump in. It was a fun easy life for me and I had a great resume and wanted to add prison Bible teaching.

I use to teach “we (Christians) all sin lots of times especially lusting and cannot keep from it, but we are constantly being washed by the blood of Christ, so we are without sin in that case.” That was before I met a group of Christians that risked death for themselves and others by sinning, just any sign of not doing what Christ would be doing in that moment could result in being beaten to death. Here is what happened:

I got thrown into (volunteered to substitute teach) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (“going to school”, it is called), they start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets, they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (granny conversions), but on their first day they are seen watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, they were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. On their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls who then approach these “Christians” saying: “you are not a Christian” (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized, given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could lead to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them. I don’t know if I could go through what they went through.

I had many hard nights praying and crying over those young men. I Loved them and empathetically to some degree suffered with them.

Sounds harsh.
But what I asked for was a testimony of your infilling, and as you did not say anything about it then I would have to assume that has
yet to happen. No speaking in tongues, hearing His voice, casting out of the unclean spirits, laying on of hands. You have no testimony
as to the things Jesus said a believer would have/do.
When it does you'll see things much better and not through the carnal lense.
There are many many peoples down through the ages that have done endless study but still never able to come to the knowledge of
the truth. 2 Ti 3:7

One small contribution here. The guys you mentioned in prison, have you ever considered that their torment was for their being able
to forgive whatever they went through? For without sin being brought against you to forgive, you cannot become more like your Father
which is in heaven. Consider Stephen and Jesus Himself, one being stoned to death says "lay not this sin to their charge" the other
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" In both cases the love of Christ was perfected in each while dying.

 

[bling]

Sounds harsh.
But what I asked for was a testimony of your infilling, and as you did not say anything about it then I would have to assume that has
yet to happen. No speaking in tongues, hearing His voice, casting out of the unclean spirits, laying on of hands. You have no testimony
as to the things Jesus said a believer would have/do.
When it does you'll see things much better and not through the carnal lense.
There are many many peoples down through the ages that have done endless study but still never able to come to the knowledge of
the truth. 2 Ti 3:7

One small contribution here. The guys you mentioned in prison, have you ever considered that their torment was for their being able
to forgive whatever they went through? For without sin being brought against you to forgive, you cannot become more like your Father
which is in heaven. Consider Stephen and Jesus Himself, one being stoned to death says "lay not this sin to their charge" the other
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do" In both cases the love of Christ was perfected in each while dying.

I feel 1 Cor. 13:10 "perfect" has come, but that requires a lengthy explanation.

 

[Samson2021]

I feel 1 Cor. 13:10 "perfect" has come, but that requires a lengthy explanation.

Only one problem you never mentioned having the first part before the perfection, if indeed it as come.

 

[bling]

Only one problem you never mentioned having the first part before the perfection, if indeed it as come.

As far as 1 Cor. 13: 10:

Look up “to telious” for that is what is in 1 Cor. 13:10. It is masculine, neuter and plural, so we are looking for the perfect “neuter it”. Will Paul doesn’t and we shouldn’t use the word in communicating to others unless they know what we are talking about. It really was no big problem for the Greek speaking Corinthians to know exactly what Paul was referring to since “the [it]” is standing for has to be neuter. Good grammar would mean the reader would immediately understand what the “it” was referring to, since the “it” would be neuter and the main previous neuter subject (not something out of context and of a different gender). The “it” from the context is something that is “in part” separated/ not together/ not one/ not whole/ not complete at the moment of the letter. There are not many neuter words around and Bible, Jesus, heaven, book, second coming and most other words in Greek are not neuter.

Did Paul make a grammatical mistake? Would the Spirit have led him to miss communicate? In Greek poetry you can use the wrong gender and if you’re trying to get some point across you might change the gender, but was that the case here? Can you find other instances of Paul make grammatical errors?

This is not the only time Paul discusses this topic of something being apart and needing to come together, you might start with Eph. for a parallel discussion.

What Paul has been talking about in gifts and the body in Chp. 12 and takes a little tangent to talk about Love, but than in Chp.13: 8 Paul returns to his discussion of gifts and the body. In Paul’s discussion of the body he talks a lot about the different parts and how we all need to be one. But are there actually one at that time or is this something Paul is wanting and encouraging them to be?

Paul says: 1 Cor. 12: 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

Paul uses that same idea in Eph. 4: 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

In Eph. Paul tells them they need to be united in one body and he also tells them how they are in parts now (have not reached the unity). Eph. 2: 11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.



“To teleion” in context is the opposite of being apart (meaning put together). The parts just previously being discussed by Paul were parts of the “body”, the body had not yet come together even at the time of the Ephesians letter, because there were still Jewish Christians and gentile Christians. This was a huge problem that Paul worked on heavily and would explain the persecution, famine and final destruction in Judas. “Body” is neuter and would be the word the Corinthian reader would easily choose to be the neuter word “to teleion” is referring to.

Paul is saying “when the body is made united as one” or “the parts of the body are joined”. Again it would be poor grammar in Greek or English to say “it” (or the equivalent of “it”) and be referring to a word you used a sentence later, but maybe you can give me examples?

I would say it was only sometime after the destruction of Jerusalem that Jewish Christians quite referring to themselves as Jewish Christians and just called themselves Christians.