Propitiation

[Hammster]

Sins, all sins were paid for by Christ. What wasn't paid for was " human good." Human 'good' deeds. That is why in revelation we see the judgement of human DEEDS. Not Human sin. All unbelievers get to plead their case of their 'good' deeds to save them. And we all know how that will work out.
All sins are evil, but not all evil is sin........human 'good.'

Um…okay.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Um…okay.

Makes sense if you study it. Christ paid for ALL sin. So what is going on if not all are saved? Human good(which is evil.) Why was Christ most enraged with the religious people of His time and not all the sinners? Human good. They were trying to save themselves with their 'good' deeds.

It's worth a look. And it answers how all sin can be paid for, yet people still will perish.

 

[Hammster]

Makes sense if you study it. Christ paid for ALL sin. So what is going on if not all are saved? Human good(which is evil.) Why was Christ most enraged with the religious people of His time and not all the sinners? Human good. They were trying to save themselves with their 'good' deeds.

It's worth a look. And it answers how all sin can be paid for, yet people still will perish.

It makes so little sense that I’ll just let you have it. I can’t see any benefit in interacting with such nonsense.

 

[Gr8Grace]

It makes so little sense that I’ll just let you have it. I can’t see any benefit in interacting with such nonsense.

It makes so little sense that I’ll just let you have it. I can’t see any benefit in interacting with such nonsense.

Thats what most people are saying to the TRUTH these days. These are not some wacko teachings, these are the things "theology", the world, satan, have suppressed for so long even believers think it's nonsense. Good day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Maybe I’ll try this a different way. When you say paid for, what exactly does that mean?

Forgiveness of sin has always carried with it a blood sacrifice. Christ was the perfect sacrifice, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay for the sins of everyone because He was completely unblemished. Because He paid the price, He alone has the authority to pardon anyone He wants. Basically it’s like He bought a ticket to a movie theater for everyone and because He paid for the tickets He has the authority to distribute them as He pleases. He’s not obligated to give everyone a ticket just because He paid for it, but He certainly can if He decides to. Ultimately if He doesn’t give someone a ticket, the usher is not going to allow that person to enter. So just because the price was paid for the ticket doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone will be granted access to it.

 

[Hammster]

Thats what most people are saying to the TRUTH these days. These are not some wacko teachings, these are the things "theology", the world, satan, have suppressed for so long even believers think it's nonsense. Good day.

 

[Hammster]

Forgiveness of sin has always carried with it a blood sacrifice. Christ was the perfect sacrifice, His sacrifice was sufficient to pay for the sins of everyone because He was completely unblemished. Because He paid the price, He alone has the authority to pardon anyone He wants. Basically it’s like He bought a ticket to a movie theater for everyone and because He paid for the tickets He has the authority to distribute them as He pleases. He’s not obligated to give everyone a ticket just because He paid for it, but He certainly can if He decides to. Ultimately if He doesn’t give someone a ticket, the usher is not going to allow that person to enter. So just because the price was paid for the ticket doesn’t necessarily mean that everyone will be granted access to it.

I hate these analogies (even mine ), but I’ll work with it. Let’s say someone doesn’t accept a ticket. Are they then executed?

 

[John Mullally]

What does receiving have to do with anything? Do you not believe that all sin was paid for on the cross? Was God’s wrath not satisfied by Christ’s death?

Points of fact - that I will use later:

1. There are scriptures that say that Christ made atonement for all sin (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, John 1:27), desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), and that God is in fact the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10).
2. There are many scriptures that indicate many go to hell.
3. There are many scriptures that show that those who respond positively to the Gospel message (believe, repent, be baptized) are saved.

On the surface, Point 1 seems to contradict point 2.

So how do some reconcile these points:

1. Some say that atonement was only made for those who would eventually be saved. Some in this camp, say that God foreknew who would believe in Him and Christ atoned for those. Calvinists take that position that God decreed who would believe in Him and Christ atoned for those. One problem with the Calvinist view is that conflicts with Point 1.
2. Some say that the atonement is provided universally - and thus there is no hell. This conflicts with point 2.
3. Some say that the atonement is provided universally, but its receipt is conditional. I take that position and that Christ's work is received by faith in Him - as best demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41 where salvation is promised to those who believe and are baptized. I see this view as being compatible with all three points of facts.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Makes sense if you study it. Christ paid for ALL sin. So what is going on if not all are saved? Human good(which is evil.) Why was Christ most enraged with the religious people of His time and not all the sinners? Human good. They were trying to save themselves with their 'good' deeds.

It's worth a look. And it answers how all sin can be paid for, yet people still will perish.

Actually Jesus was displeased with them because their heart was not good. They were hypocrites trying to pretend to be good while their hearts were actually greedy and self serving. They sought recognition instead of doing good works out of love for others. That’s why Jesus rebuked them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I hate these analogies (even mine ), but I’ll work with it. Let’s say someone doesn’t accept a ticket. Are they then executed?

They’ll be thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Points of fact - that I will use later:

1. There are scriptures that say that Christ made atonement for all sin (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, John 1:27), desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), and that God is in fact the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10).
2. There are many scriptures that indicate many go to hell.
3. There are many scriptures that show that those who respond positively to the Gospel message (believe, repent, be baptized) are saved.

On the surface, Point 1 seems to contradict point 2.

So how do some reconcile these points:

1. Some say that atonement was only made for those who would eventually be saved. Some in this camp, say that God foreknew who would believe in Him and Christ atoned for those. Calvinists take that position that God decreed who would believe in Him and Christ atoned for those. One problem with the Calvinist view is that conflicts with Point 1.
2. Some say that the atonement is provided universally - and thus there is no hell. This conflicts with point 2.
3. Some say that the atonement is provided universally, but its receipt is conditional. I take that position and that Christ's work is received by faith in Him - as best demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41 where salvation is promised to those who believe and are baptized. I see this view as being compatible with all three points of facts.

Bravo you demonstrated how all passages are true without contradicting one another. That’s exactly how sound theology works. If passage 1=3 and passage 2=7 we can’t conclude that the correct answer is either 3 or 7 we have to combine those teachings and conclude that they both add up to 10. Calvinists often get tunnel vision and only focus on what supports their theology and turn a blind eye to everything else.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Christ paying for all sin

Actually Jesus was displeased with them because their heart was not good. They were hypocrites trying to pretend to be good while their hearts were actually greedy and self serving. They sought recognition instead of doing good works out of love for others. That’s why Jesus rebuked them.

Which is pretty much what I said. Giving to the poor, doing "good" things is not a sin. They will stand before the Lord and try to use these 'good' deeds to save themselves.
"On that day" is judgement day. Notice he says evildoers.......human good. Not sinners. He paid for ALL sin.

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers'" (Matthew 7:21-23).

And one more note. We do DIVINE good through walking in the Spirit.

 

[Hammster]

Points of fact - that I will use later:

1. There are scriptures that say that Christ made atonement for all sin (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, John 1:27), desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), and that God is in fact the Savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10).
2. There are many scriptures that indicate many go to hell.
3. There are many scriptures that show that those who respond positively to the Gospel message (believe, repent, be baptized) are saved.

On the surface, Point 1 seems to contradict point 2.

So how do some reconcile these points:

1. Some say that atonement was only made for those who would eventually be saved. Some in this camp, say that God foreknew who would believe in Him and Christ atoned for those. Calvinists take that position that God decreed who would believe in Him and Christ atoned for those. One problem with the Calvinist view is that conflicts with Point 1.
2. Some say that the atonement is provided universally - and thus there is no hell. This conflicts with point 2.
3. Some say that the atonement is provided universally, but its receipt is conditional. I take that position and that Christ's work is received by faith in Him - as best demonstrated in Acts 2:36-41 where salvation is promised to those who believe and are baptized. I see this view as being compatible with all three points of facts.

Here’s another instance where you bothered to quote me asking a question, but didn’t answer the question. You just repeated what you believe. But I’ll go from here.

So “provided universally” mean that God’s wrath is on everyone until they repent?

 

[Hammster]

They’ll be thrown into the lake of fire.

For the equivalent of not going to a movie? That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think?

 

[John Mullally]

Here’s another instance where you bothered to quote me asking a question, but didn’t answer the question. You just repeated what you believe. But I’ll go from here.

So “provided universally” mean that God’s wrath is on everyone until they repent?

My response that you say does not answer your questions, (Post 189) touches those questions indirectly. I am not surprised you did not find post 189 useful - but you are not the only one reading these posts.

Yes. The atonement is provided for all conditionally. It only benefits those who repent. So those who don't repent will go to hell. You can lead a horse to water (provision), but you cannot make him drink (receive the provision).

Here are the questions you say I did not answer.

What does receiving have to do with anything? Do you not believe that all sin was paid for on the cross? Was God’s wrath not satisfied by Christ’s death?

The first question was answered by a portion of Post 60, shown below. My answers to the second and third questions rely on you understanding my position that the atonement is received conditionally - which you are resisting.

Jesus atoned for all man's sin. 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 show that Jesus provides atonement for all people - but as I will show that atonement is applied conditionally.

Since Jesus took upon Himself the “sin of the world,” (John 1:29), His atonement is therefore available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition.

Numbers 21:8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.​

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John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​

You discarded my Post 60 in Post 62 (below). You ask questions, but close your mind to what other's say when you don't like it. When I hear arguments I don't agree with, I strive to understand them because I may learn something or develop the means to better counter that argument.

The problem is that the verse in question doesn’t say that the satisfaction of God’s wrath was made available. It says that He is the propitiation. So according to John, it’s a done deal.

 

[Hammster]

So “provided universally” mean that God’s wrath is on everyone until they repent?

Yes

That’s at least closer to Reformed Theology than what others on here are saying. You don’t believe that the actual sins were atoned for, but just potentially atoned for. Others are saying that Jesus took the punishment for all sins, but people still ended up in hell for sins. You are saying that. In Reformed Theology we would say that Christ’s death was sufficient for all, but on efficient for the elect. Your view is in that neighborhood, at least as far as the atonement is concerned.

 

[BNR32FAN]

For the equivalent of not going to a movie? That’s a bit harsh, don’t you think?

Not as harsh as throwing people into the lake of fire for failing to meet impossible expectations. That’s what Calvin teaches.

 

[Hammster]

Not as harsh as throwing people into the lake of fire for failing to meet impossible expectations. That’s what Calvin teaches.

That’s quite the deflection. Why?

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[John Mullally]

Well, that was fun.

Yuk, yuk.

What does receiving have to do with anything?

James 1:5-7 says that only the believing can expect to receive anything from the Lord. Shocked that you asked! This is absolutely fundamental. Initial receiving from God (Ephesians 1:13-14) includes the new birth. This is also confirmed in Ephesians 1:3 as the book of Ephesians is addressed to the "faithful in Christ". Therefore, all references to "you", "we", and "us" in Ephesians can be substituted with"the faithful in Christ".

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.​

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Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.​

Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.​

Do you not believe that all sin was paid for on the cross?

Christ paid for all sin (1 John 2:1-2), but payment is conditionally received through faith (John 3:14-15). Since you introduced accounting terms, I will expand on that. Sin payment is received conditionally (you effectvelycash the payment by faith per John 3:14-15) instead of having an automatic deposit made for you if you happen to be one of God's favorites (reference Calvinist fatalism).

Jesus “takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29), thus making the atonement available to all, but it will not be applied to you, me or our neighbor if we don’t look to Christ, just like Jesus illustrated at John 3:14/Numbers 21:6-9. His atonement is designed to only apply to those who believe in Him, and if you, me or our neighbor refuse God, then we will perish despite what would have saved us, just like Jesus illustrated at John 3:14/Numbers 21:6-9. No one in Hell can be told: “You had to be there. You had no Savior’s love or atonement for forgiveness, but were born helpless and hopeless due to a cruel, malicious God.” Instead, they’ll be told: “Thou fool! For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.”

Was God’s wrath not satisfied by Christ’s death?

Although Christ delivered us from God's wrath towards sin (if we believe), I don't find any discussion of Christ satisfying God's wrath in the NT.

You should be explaining this instead of demanding others answer for it. This is a begging the question fallacy (Begging the question - Wikipedia). This is part of Calvin's Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory that he introduced 1500 years after Calvary.