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Did God create evil?

  • Yes

    Votes: 17 24.3%
  • No

    Votes: 33 47.1%
  • No, but He knew evil would be created by free agents when He created them

    Votes: 17 24.3%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 4.3%

  • Total voters
    70

YouAreAwesome

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"free will": but noting that the term is ill-defined, so, to be honest I'd need clarification.
Free Will:the ability to choose between different possible courses of action
Moral Free Will: the ability choose between good and evil (right and wrong)

If free will is true, anyone "in heaven" can boast all day long, because they are solely responsible for their salvation
But how is this a reason for disregarding free will? Jesus taught there would be rewards in heaven. One could boast about these could they not? For example "Look what God made for me! It's way better than what He made for you! God loves me more! I must be better than you!"

All of his "choices" will always be determined by influence of those things exterior to himself. I see no reasonable alternative.
I would think these play a large role in who we are, but the Free Will element remains, perhaps in this regard the ability to choose to disregard certain prior influences.

I don't believe anything is without purpose.
You see all pain and suffering, even from seemingly random events, with no obvious positive outcome, as purposeful? Say, a roller coaster kills children and parents leaving a few from each family alive. You think every one of those who died, and those who remained alive, are part of God's perfect plan? Or perhaps divorce? Or torture of the innocent? All this evil perfectly determined by an omnbenevolent God for a great purpose?
 
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RDKirk

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So in your view freedom only exists with no commands or moral directions; so when God gave a command He took away their freedom and created evil, true?

So a person is free if there are no moral commands? Wouldn't this mean that the robot is free and the free agent isn't?

I would not have known sin if it were not for the law. For example, I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, Do not covet. And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead.

Once I was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. The commandment that was meant for life resulted in death for me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it killed me.
-- Romans 6

The command+consequence (remember, it was not merely "do not" it was "do not or face a consequence") of an Almighty God removes constrains the freedom to make moral choices.

But you said "took away their freedom and created evil," which I deny because I've already said that evil is not a created thing, it is the absence of a created thing, which would be, from our point of view, obedience. Obedience is good. Obedience is also a created thing, in that it requires action; having been commanded to act, inaction is disobedience and action other than the command is disobedience. The law defines good, but having defined good, it reveals the converse.
 
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Kenny'sID

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This is all meaningless. You have completely ignored the main point - FREE WILL.

I think the "free agents" were supposed to cover free will, but I agree, the logic train there is meaningless.

God created free will, man willed to do evil, not God. God willed just the opposite. Now God did define what was evil, and I guess that's as close as we can come to saying he created it, but still, he did not, he only defined what it was.

Why is it important for you to know if God created evil or not? If he did, would you conclude something from that? Or what brought the question to mind in the first place?
 
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RDKirk

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Jesus taught there would be rewards in heaven. One could boast about these could they not? For example "Look what God made for me! It's way better than what He made for you! God loves me more! I must be better than you!"

"Reward" is taken incorrectly by modern men. They seem to think rewards in heaven are big-screen televisions or something.

Look at the specific examples Jesus gave, the examples of stewards put in charge of the property or wealth of their master.

A central idea, frequently overlooked, is that the master put them in charge of stewardships sized according to their abilities. The steward of great ability he gave a larger stewardship, the stewards of lesser capabilities he gave proportionately smaller stewardships.

This is, of course, a good thing because the intent of the master is that his stewards be successful. He does not intend that they fail.

So, for example in one parable, the steward who receives only two talents is not unhappy that he didn't get five talents--he is aware that he would not be able to successfully manage five talents...it would just keep him awake at night.

Now when the faithful stewards earn what is really the same proportion of profit--they both double the talents they were originally given--the "reward" for good work...is more work. This is Jesus' consistent message.

A steward who handles his responsibility well is given more responsibility, and that is his reward--and a steward who is trusted by his master with all he can handle is a secure steward.
 
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John Hyperspace

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Free Will:the ability to choose between different possible courses of action
Moral Free Will: the ability choose between good and evil (right and wrong)

But you see, the ability to choose is also in deterministic understanding. The idea of "choice" doesn't clarify the position. But let's just leave this be for now, no need to go there unless we have to. If something comes up in which we need real clarity, we can come back to this.

But how is this a reason for disregarding free will? Jesus taught there would be rewards in heaven. One could boast about these could they not? For example "Look what God made for me! It's way better than what He made for you! God loves me more! I must be better than you!"

No, not at all. There can only be boasting when the reward is earned, not when it is given. A man who is given a mansion distant from the proverbial temple can't boast over a man that is given a simple house adjoined to that same temple. In determinism, this is established in purpose according to the will of God; all things being made equal. Paul speaks of this:

14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

But if the man got the mansion adjoined the temple by his own free will, he can certainly boast over the man that got the house adjoined because of his, lack of choosing properly. Indeed, as stated prior: if free will is true; God is a mere assistant in salvation, and the man who is saved can completely boast over all that are not, in that his own excellence got him his own salvation: and his salvation becomes fully by his own hand since his choice was the one-and-only real factor in the outcome. In this scenario God has given all He gives to everyone, and so we are really at a net-sum of equality for all men: the inequality of salvation or damnation will all be placed on the free will of the man, and nothing at all upon God, who has enabled the same for all men; the only difference in salvation and damnation being the sole result of the excellence of will of the man. In free will, man is his own salvation, or, man is his own condemnation. God is not even in the proverbial picture at all; but is a peripheral.

If people in "hell" are solely responsible for their own damnation, and God is not at all responsible for their outcome; then people in heaven are solely responsible for their own salvation, and God is not responsible at all for their outcome, either. Yet, this cannot be the case. There are myriad reasons why free will cannot be true; and no legitimate reason of which I am aware for why it should be thought true.

I would think these play a large role in who we are, but the Free Will element remains, perhaps in this regard the ability to choose to disregard certain prior influences.

Could you provide a scenario in which a man will choose something not based upon what he is made to be because of his experiences in life? I am confident that every choice ever made by a man can always be traced back to something exterior to himself, over which he had no control. In fact, everything will always be traced back to God as the source of all things.

You see all pain and suffering, even from seemingly random events, with no obvious positive outcome, as purposeful? Say, a roller coaster kills children and parents leaving a few from each family alive. You think every one of those who died, and those who remained alive, are part of God's perfect plan? Or perhaps divorce? Or torture of the innocent? All this evil perfectly determined by an omnbenevolent God for a great purpose?

Indeed I do believe all of these things have a purpose in the plan of God. All of these situations will have positive impact on countless people, according to the will of God. When tragedy befalls, it has powerful affects for good on people involved, and, people whom these people interact with, rippling outward in positive change. I believe God is a most efficient Architect, and all things have purpose, and no thing exists which has no purpose. I can only speak hypothetically of the situations you're mentioning, which I would refrain from doing (I'm not a fan of hypotheticals) unless you want it; but suffice it to say, we are taught in much scripture that pain and tradegy works for the greater good at every turn.
 
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Kenny'sID

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"Reward" is taken incorrectly by modern men. They seem to think rewards in heaven are big-screen televisions or something.

Look at the specific examples Jesus gave, the examples of stewards put in charge of the property or wealth of their master.

A central idea, frequently overlooked, is that the master put them in charge of stewardships sized according to their abilities. The steward of great ability he gave a larger stewardship, the stewards of lesser capabilities he gave proportionately smaller stewardships.

This is, of course, a good thing because the intent of the master is that his stewards be successful. He does not intend that they fail.

So, for example in one parable, the steward who receives only two talents is not unhappy that he didn't get five talents--he is aware that he would not be able to successfully manage five talents...it would just keep him awake at night.

Now when the faithful stewards earn what is really the same proportion of profit--they both double the talents they were originally given--the "reward" for good work...is more work. This is Jesus' consistent message.

A steward who handles his responsibility well is given more responsibility, and that is his reward--and a steward who is trusted by his master with all he can handle is a secure steward.

You are absolutely correct, but I see no reason to believe the rewards don't go further than that, like things of value, maybe gold, silver, or even that big screen TV for instance, and maybe not....we just don't know for certain. :)
 
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Far Side Of the Moon

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The difference though is that the parents don't know everything their child is going to do, just the potential. God knows everything and thus there's no "probably", especially since God is said to control everything.
Right...even in scripture...it says he creates the light and darkness.. It is what it is...at least no one can ever say God tries to pull the wok over our eyes... He's very straight forward...and I appreciate that.
 
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thesunisout

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Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

The mistake in your logic is that you believe that evil was inevitable because an infinite amount of time would pass. Not according to scripture:

Revelation 21:1-5

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.

An infinite amount of time will pass after the new heavens and new earth are created, and yet sin will never enter the world ever again.

You also don't know what God had planned after Adam and Eve had been in the garden for awhile and begun to populate the Earth. Perhaps they were on a trial period in the garden where evil was a possibility but after they passed the test evil was no longer a possibility. You make too many assumptions: evil is inevitable after an infinite amount of time, and that Adam and Eve would have remained in the same state of having a potential for evil for an infinite amount of time instead of a finite amount of time. I don't agree that your argument is accurate even if your basic premises are true, but they are invalidated by those two facts in any case.

I would also ask, why are you so eager to prove that God is the author of evil? Could it be that your flesh desires an out that you feel you would have if you could blame God for your sin? You need to realize that no one is to blame for your sin but you, and we will all be held accountable for our own sin when we stand before the Lord. It is only because Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin that we could go free, if you believe and are trusting in Him as Lord and Savior. God did not create sin, but He did put it under the feet of Jesus Christ, as well as the devil and his power of death, so that we can be free.
 
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CrystalDragon

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The mistake in your logic is that you believe that evil was inevitable because an infinite amount of time would pass. Not according to scripture:

Revelation 21:1-5

Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.

An infinite amount of time will pass after the new heavens and new earth are created, and yet sin will never enter the world ever again.

You also don't know what God had planned after Adam and Eve had been in the garden for awhile and begun to populate the Earth. Perhaps they were on a trial period in the garden where evil was a possibility but after they passed the test evil was no longer a possibility. You make too many assumptions: evil is inevitable after an infinite amount of time, and that Adam and Eve would have remained in the same state of having a potential for evil for an infinite amount of time instead of a finite amount of time. I don't agree that your argument is accurate even if your basic premises are true, but they are invalidated by those two facts in any case.

I would also ask, why are you so eager to prove that God is the author of evil? Could it be that your flesh desires an out that you feel you would have if you could blame God for your sin? You need to realize that no one is to blame for your sin but you, and we will all be held accountable for our own sin when we stand before the Lord. It is only because Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin that we could go free, if you believe and are trusting in Him as Lord and Savior. God did not create sin, but He did put it under the feet of Jesus Christ, as well as the devil and his power of death, so that we can be free.


Keep in mind that Revelation was one of several that were going around at the time, and might not have even been in the.Bible at all. It might have been replaced by those other Revelations, and in any case it was the last book added, decades later. Not to mention it's full of symbolic imagery and was apparently meant to symbolize and represent the Roman Empire and imagery was used because John couldn't just say "Nero stinks and the Christians will soon not be under his power" or he'd likely be beheaded.
 
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Received

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Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

Given that evil is by definition that which is possible through the free will of the agent, it's therefore irrational to claim that God created evil, seeing how only the free agent can create evil. Yet at the same time, God creates evil indirectly, but this gap between direct and indirect is where all the importance of the argument lies, IMO.

Apropos the argument you put forth (very nicely), the impossibility of free agents to remain sinless still rests on the fault of the agents.
 
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Daniel9v9

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No, God is not the source of evil.

The OP is getting at the philosophical Problem of Evil. That is, if God is good, why is there evil? The answer would usually boil down to that either God created evil or God's not in control, or simply that there is no God - These are all false and contrary to the word of God.

Through God's own revelation, we can know that He alone is good. God is sovereign, good, holy, righteous, patient, merciful and kind. To this all Scriptures and the Holy Spirit testify.

To claim that God is the source of evil is highly problematic for a number of reasons and is simply false and contrary to sound doctrine.
God is not evil, but man - corrupt in sin and rebellion, with reasoning that is bent on evil - is. So rather than questioning God's goodness and how it fits with the source of evil, I would instead question our faulty reasoning, which fails to comprehend any good spiritual thing.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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There is a difference but it does not strain the analogy, which was between parents’ effectively certain knowledge that their children will do some evil things and God’s perfectly certain knowledge that His children will do some evil things. In neither case does the guilt redound to the parent or Parent.
Human parents are imperfect. God is perfect.

Human children since the fall are imperfect.
God's children originally were perfect.

The environment today is imperfect.
The environment when God created the first free agents was perfect.

Humans procreate, they don't create (they don't give their children the potential to do evil, it comes with the package).
God created (literally gave humans the potential to sin).

etc.

There are so many problems with the analogy I don't know where to start. There may be some similarity or correlation, but that's as far as it goes.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Given that evil is by definition that which is possible through the free will of the agent, it's therefore irrational to claim that God created evil, seeing how only the free agent can create evil.
But if the free agent will definitely choose a course of action at some point in time, isn't the Creator of the free agent the primary-cause of the free agents choice?

God creates evil indirectly, but this gap between direct and indirect is where all the importance of the argument lies
Yes, and then the question is, how indirect is it for God to cause a free agents action? It seems to me if He absolutely knows the free agent will make a particular decision then He becomes the primary-cause.
 
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thesunisout

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Keep in mind that Revelation was one of several that were going around at the time, and might not have even been in the.Bible at all. It might have been replaced by those other Revelations, and in any case it was the last book added, decades later. Not to mention it's full of symbolic imagery and was apparently meant to symbolize and represent the Roman Empire and imagery was used because John couldn't just say "Nero stinks and the Christians will soon not be under his power" or he'd likely be beheaded.

It's not the Revelation of John:

Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which was given to John by Christ through his angel. In other words, it is the word of God.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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The command+consequence (remember, it was not merely "do not" it was "do not or face a consequence") of an Almighty God removes constrains the freedom to make moral choices.
Are you arguing that the command+consequence constrained their moral freedom? That they were morally free before the command?

But you said "took away their freedom and created evil"
Which premise did you get this from? I didn't say "took away their freedom" did I? I'm just asking if a free agents freedom will always yield a particular outcome.

The law defines good, but having defined good, it reveals the converse.
1. God created the law
2. The law reveals good
3. Therefore the law reveals evil
4. Therefore God created the potential for evil
5. God created free agents with the potential to be disobedient
6. Over an infinite time, a free agent facing the law, will be disobedient (see OP)
7. Therefore God is the primary cause of the free agent choosing evil
8. Therefore God caused evil
 
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Received

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But if the free agent will definitely choose a course of action at some point in time, isn't the Creator of the free agent the primary-cause of the free agents choice?

I'd say he's the necessary but not sufficient cause.

Yes, and then the question is, how indirect is it for God to cause a free agents action? It seems to me if He absolutely knows the free agent will make a particular decision then He becomes the primary-cause.

I don't think knowledge in terms of the agent's action across time has anything to do with it. You don't have to go further than necessary and sufficient causes: if God creates a free agent, then even if this free agent will eventually choose evil, he's responsible for it.

I think a part of this that seems mysteriously absent -- I say this because I find it missing in my own thought much of the time when talking about this subject -- is that the free agent chooses evil -- and so what? He can choose good again, or in religious terms he can become reunited through faith with the Power that created him.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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No, not at all. There can only be boasting when the reward is earned, not when it is given.
I disagree. Twins are given presents by their dad. T1 gets $20, the T2 gets $10. T1 boasts that he is loved more. Zero free will with regard to the reward (except perhaps on the part of the father), yet boasting is still a consequence.

If people in "hell" are solely responsible for their own damnation, and God is not at all responsible for their outcome; then people in heaven are solely responsible for their own salvation, and God is not responsible at all for their outcome, either. Yet, this cannot be the case.
I don't see it. God is responsible for the outcome because without His salvation no-one would receive it. Believers are responsible for receiving the salvation. Those in hell are responsible for rejecting it.

Could you provide a scenario in which a man will choose something not based upon what he is made to be because of his experiences in life?
I think this is like asking for a proof of a+b=b+a, it's either true or it isn't.
 
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Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

I take issue with #7 and #8. God is not 100% responsible - man (and angels) have their role. God did not create evil - what God created He called 'good'. Free-will is a good thing, but the one who wields it (like wielding a sword) determines how the 'good' thing gets used. Given that God gave us a 'good' thing which He knew we would abuse, I believe He was and is responsible for providing a 'remedy' from our situation. (The situation that we would misuse the 'good' gift and fall into sin.) God has provided that remedy.

This all gets into the concept that for God to have the kind of relationship He desired with created beings, He needed to create them with 'free-will' to choose to love/serve Him or not. But as you say, every 'free-will' being is going to choose wrongly at some point - and this we call sin. So to get the kind of relationship He wants with created beings, He is going to have to provide a 'redemption' potential - which He has done.
 
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JoeP222w

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God created free agents

Autonomous free agents: no. God created us with a creaturely will and we can only respond within the limitation of our humanity. A person can will themselves to fly like a bird all they want, but it is not going to happen and that is not a violation of their free will.

Man, in his natural, unregenerate state, apart from the grace of God, has the ability to sin only continually. Man is dead in his sins against the holy and righteous God, man has no ability to do anything good.

God uses means to display His grace and His justice.


Romans 9:15-23 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
 
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