Proof God created evil

[YouAreAwesome]

GOD temporarily allowing evil or knowing that it was going to exist in the future does not equate with GOD approving of evil and nor does it equate that GOD directly created evil.

1. God knows evil will occur in the future if He creates a free agent
2. God creates a free agent
3. A free agent chooses evil
4. God did not create evil

Isn't this like saying:
1. I know pain will occur in the future if I give a gun to an adult
2. I give a gun to an adult
3. The adult chooses to shoot someone
4. I did not shoot anyone

In both examples, it seems the one who sees the future outcome is both responsible and the primary cause of the later actions. Or maybe not?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

@Jason0047 You have answered the question:
"If man (and angels) were created in such a way that they will choose evil with 100% certainty, are they in any way to blame?"
No.

But then...

GOD did not create the problem of evil or sin.

This seems contradictory unless you believe it was not a 100% certainty free agents would sin, is this what you believe?

 

[LouisBooth]

Isn't this like saying:
1. I know pain will occur in the future if I give a gun to a child
2. I give a gun to a child
3. The child chooses to shoot someone
4. I did not shoot anyone

replace Child with adult in this scenario.

 

[LouisBooth]

the logical point you're leaving out here is that God is perfectly Just and perfectly loving.

 

[DingDing]

what you said
-and-
it doesn't exist

And you just got added to my "does not exist" list.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1. God knows evil will occur in the future if He creates a free agent
2. God creates a free agent
3. A free agent chooses evil
4. God did not create evil

Isn't this like saying:
1. I know pain will occur in the future if I give a gun to a child
2. I give a gun to a child
3. The child chooses to shoot someone
4. I did not shoot anyone

In both examples, it seems the one who sees the future outcome is both responsible and the primary cause of the later actions.

We are talking about man here and not GOD.
For GOD is in control of all things and not man.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

GOD always provides a way of escape for a person so as not to sin or do the wrong thing. Man is still ultimately responsible for doing evil and not GOD because it was the man who made the decision to do evil with an equal opportunity or choice available to them in doing good. There is no darkness in GOD. He can no more tempt a person to do evil then for rain not to be wet. A person who sins is enticed and drawn away by their own lusts and desires and not by anything GOD does to them.


...

 

[YouAreAwesome]

the logical point you're leaving out here is that God is perfectly Just and perfectly loving.

How does this affect the discussion?

 

[DingDing]

..
This makes some sense to me. He provided sin in the package of moral free will and He provided salvation in that same package. However, why should we be judged for sin if it was inevitable?

Because we have to accept responsibility for our actions (in that we chose to sin). If we then do not choose the provided "way out", then we have rejected God completely.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Jason0047 You have answered the question:
"If man (and angels) were created in such a way that they will choose evil with 100% certainty, are they in any way to blame?"
No.

This was answered in the context of the Calvinistic world view and not the Biblical world view. When angels or man had no free will to do good and their only choice was evil because God chose them to be evil as a part of their destiny, then they cannot be held responsible.

GOD did not create the problem of evil or sin.

This seems contradictory unless you believe it was not a 100% certainty free agents would sin, is this what you believe?

In the Biblical world view (Not the Calvnistic world view): GOD made man in such a way that MAN would be responsible for his own choices (Separate from the choices GOD would make). So if man does good or if man does evil, man will have to answer to GOD for one of those two choices (And not GOD). God indirectly creating evil (by making man to exist) does not mean GOD directly created evil (By creating beings out of thin air who were evil to begin with). Nor does it mean GOD approves of evil or that GOD desired evil to exist, either. Nor does it mean GOD is responsible for the evil we see in this world. For it was man who chose to do the evil; Not GOD.


....

 

[victorinus]

And you just got added to my "does not exist" list.

I exist because I think

 

[YouAreAwesome]

GOD always provides a way of escape for a person so as not to sin or do the wrong thing. Man is still ultimately responsible for doing evil and not GOD because it was the man who made the decision to do evil with an equal opportunity or choice available to them in doing good. There is no darkness in GOD. He can no more tempt a person to do evil then for rain not to be wet. A person who sins is enticed and drawn away by their own lusts and desires and not by anything GOD does to them.

Yes, this is my belief also. I'm trying to understand how to reconcile His absolute Goodness with the choice He made to create evil (whether directly or indirectly via free agents).

It seems the answers can be summed as:
1. God is not to be blamed for creating free agents who will choose to sin.

Or,

2. God is to be blamed, but the value of morally free agents outweighs all evil.

 

[Aelialicinia]

God did not create the Evil One. God created all things He loves to have free will. Therefore some chose and choose the way of the Evil One who had already fallen from Heaven taking with him his minions.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

This was answered in the context of the Calvinistic world view and not the Biblical world view. When angels or man had no free will to do good and their only choice was evil because God chose them to be evil as a part of their destiny, then they cannot be held responsible.

Calvinism might be false, yet within an Armenian view if the probability of free-agents sinning is 1 the two views seem to agree anyhow. Free will or not, if it's a 100% chance that humans would sin, how can they be blamed or judged or held responsible?

 

[YouAreAwesome]

God did not create the Evil One. God created all things He loves to have free will. Therefore some chose and choose the way of the Evil One who had already fallen from Heaven taking with him his minions.

So the Evil One has always existed?

 

[bobharms]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

God created worshippers, I know He did because I am one. Besides I don't know anything about insurance...

 

[CrystalDragon]

God did not create the Evil One. God created all things He loves to have free will. Therefore some chose and choose the way of the Evil One who had already fallen from Heaven taking with him his minions.

Satan wasn't seen as the Evil One until the New Testament by the way, Satan served God in Job and God sent lying spirits to prophets. Even if we disregard that though, if God did not create Satan, then that would mean Satan exists independently of God.

 

[geiroffenberg]

Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p)^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

If this is true, is "the end justifies the means" the only response available? In other words, was the value of free agents to God greater than the evil they would create? In times of suffering, is there comfort found in recognizing the overall reason for evil is because we are more valuable to God when we have a moral free will?

i think the mistake is that we believe we can understand spiritual things trough polls and human reasoning.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, this is my belief also. I'm trying to understand how to reconcile His absolute Goodness with the choice He made to create evil (whether directly or indirectly via free agents).

It seems the answers can be summed as:
1. God is not to be blamed for creating free agents who will choose to sin.

Or,

2. God is to be blamed, but the value of morally free agents outweighs all evil.

It is option #1. Remember, there is no counsel you can make against the LORD (Proverbs 21:30). GOD is good (all the time). GOD is love. GOD is holy. GOD is righteous and just in all He does. His ways our higher than our ways. Option #2, suggests there is fault with GOD and or that you actually think you can win a case in bringing an accusation against the LORD (Which is not possible).

The key to understanding the difference here is creating something directly versus indirectly. There is a huge difference. For if a god were to directly create evil beings with no other choice otherwise but to do evil from out of the starting gate, then that would be wrong. For it would be wrong for such a god to do such a thing because it is doing evil alone (sowing evil directly).

But in the real world: we know GOD gives people the free will to do either good or bad equally and they will be held accountable for their actions (Which are separate from GOD's actions). GOD temporarily allowing a person to have his way does not mean GOD is not taking responsibility or that GOD is approving of such said actions. GOD WILL judge man in the future for what he does here now. The hurt and harm caused by man is on the shoulders of man and not GOD. GOD could interfer and stop all evil before it can happen. This is true. But GOD's inaction to stop evil in every situation does not mean GOD is responsible for that evil. GOD is simply allowing man to have free will or the choice to make his own decisions and in allowing man to choose the course of his own destiny. For we have to realize that even out of the bad things within this world, GOD can make GOOD things come from out of it (Like with the story of Joseph and like with Jesus going to the cross for us).

We also have to remember that we were told to have rule over this Earth. So there is a certain sovereinty to man (that GOD gives to man). GOD gives man a certain level of freedom in his rule or dominion upon the Earth.


...

 

[LARMOG]

God is transcendent. He has not given us the ability to fully grasp His wisdom. It is beyond us! That is the test. Will we admit that God is infinitely greater and obey Him - or will we demand that we understand before we believe? It is as simple as that. We are arrogant to think that God could explain all His ways so that our tiny brains could grasp them - just as a child cannot understand what His parents are doing.

 

[Mediaeval]

If God knows with 100% certainty the human will choose evil, why can't He be blamed for the evil? The problem with your analogy (as pointed out by @CrystalDragon), is that it is 100% certain. If the parents know beforehand that their child will cause the first evil in a particular world, then they are to blame.

God cannot be blamed because moral responsibility is non-transferable. Every moral agent is responsible for his own specific actions. The element of freedom or self-determination in the agent’s action both gives the specific action a moral character of good or evil and assigns the responsibility for the action specifically to the freely acting agent.

When Billy pulled Susie’s hair at school, let’s say, it was Billy’s specific action and Billy’s free, uncoerced choice. Neither God nor Billy’s parents pulled Susie’s hair. They are not morally responsible for that act. Billy is solely responsible for it. God and Billy’s parents are morally responsible only for their own separate actions, and Billy’s action does not automatically determine the moral character of their actions. God’s actions were, e.g., to create and sustain Billy and let him to go to Susie’s school, even though He knew what Billy would do. Meanwhile, Billy’s parents, who knew their boy would jump at the chance to pull Susie’s hair, still sent Billy to school. As long as both God and Billy’s parents had morally sufficient reasons to let Billy go to school, in spite of their knowing Billy’s propensity to pull hair, their own actions are blameless.

Assuming in charity that Billy's parents were well-intentioned and wise, we do not fault Billy's parents, though we may still wonder why they let Billy go to school. And knowing that God is good, we are sure that He always has morally justifiable reasons for doing all that He does and for allowing all that He allows. As Aquinas put it, quoting Augustine, "Since God is the highest good, He would not allow any evil to exist in His works, unless His omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil."

Is that you, NV?