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Poll - Once Saved Always Saved
- Thread starter SeekingTheTruth0819
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No, he's "burning six candles" at the same time. Too many irons in the fire, too many horses to corral, too many doggies to rope. Sorry to be slow...
I've got my bottle of tomato sauce, I'll try to ketchup this weekend...
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
I don't fail to realize this. Why would you make such a combative statement? What does this say about what you've failed to realize?
God bases His choice here on something other than me. He bases it on His mercy. He bases it on what He wants to do, and who He wants to relate with.
God does not base His choice on what I want, nor does He base His choice on how well I do in life.
He's said as much in Romans 9.
Once God chooses, that choice, once enacted, has a massive effect on those chosen. But the basis of that choice is not me. How could it be? Everything is a result of Him. The basis of that choice has to be Him.
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Dispy
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How is one saved?
1 Cor. 15: "1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Is that salvation secure (OSAS)?
Ephesians 1:13 " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of you salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory."
1 Cor. 15: "1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Is that salvation secure (OSAS)?
Ephesians 1:13 " In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of you salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory."
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yashualover
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Because most churches are filled with false converts it looks like so called christians are falling away left and right.
Jesus says not one of His will be lost.
This is why we have nothing to boast about, because it's all Him and none of us.
If a person repents and puts their trust in Yeshua it's because Yaveh drew that person to the Son, and chose that person before the earth was even created.
Joh 17:9 I am asking on their behalf. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those you gave me, for they are yours.
Joh 17:10 All that is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by your name, the name that you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them by your name that you gave me. I guarded them, and not one of them became lost except the one who was destined for destruction, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
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False converts or false teaching? Most baptists churches in my area are dead or dying. Upon investigation what is found is the same old worn out salvation message preached every sunday. . . . to the same people.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
"What you fail to realize" is a combative statement. It's also a minimizing, deprecating statement that has no meaning other than "I think you may've missed something (but I'm not sure)." But instead you've concluded that I've neglected something that is to be treated as a failure on my part.
Here, I'll put it to you bluntly: you stated: "you fail". And you miss the combativeness of that statement? Please. That'd be extreme neglect.
And just look at how quickly your sword's drawn when I merely ask you back with the same words. Just think about that: why would words directed at me be noncombative, but "them's fightin' words" when they're pointed at you?
But not external reasons.
Did this person open the door because he wanted to, absent God's prior choice? Or was it because of God's prior choice?
"Now what were you saying?"
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Catholic Christian
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1. The Bible says in Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, when I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, I was saved. It’s a done deal.
When a Catholic hears the above assertion, his fist inclination is to immediately launch a litany of verses that emphasize that salvation can be lost. Usually this causes the other person to present just as many verses that speak of salvation as a completed event. Both parties feel as if they have offered plenty of evidence, but no progress has been made.
There’s a better way to go at it. Concede that the Bible does speak of salvation as a past-tense event. Offer some verses of your own, such as Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith." From there, add that Scripture also speaks of salvation as a present-tense event. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Just as we cannot deny that salvation is a past- and present-tense event, the Evangelical Protestant cannot deny that Scripture also speaks of it as a future-tense event. For evidence of this, verses such as Romans 13:11 might be offered: "our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5).
When you emphasize that salvation can be lost, the Protestant often hears, "You have not yet been saved." He knows that the Bible speaks of salvation as a past-tense event, and so no matter how many verses you offer, you will not be able to prove this to be false. The way to move beyond this impasse is to offer the big picture of salvation: past, present, and future. The Evangelical will then not feel as if you are trying to prove that he has not been saved, but will perhaps be more open to look at salvation in a broader—and more biblical—context. Once you have reached this point, it’s time to offer the evidence that the free gift of salvation can be just as freely forfeited.
2. How could I lose my salvation if Jesus said that no one could snatch me out of God’s hand (John 10:28)?
One mistake that often leads to verse slinging is failing to address a verse that is presented. When we hear a Protestant offer his verse, we think of another verse that seems to argue for our position and we toss it back to him. Then we become frustrated that he never looked seriously as the verse and threw a different one back at us. The remedy for this type of scriptural ping-pong is to take the time to look at each verse that is brought up.
In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why.
Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.
Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."
3. If you can lose your salvation by sin, doesn’t that imply that you are earning your salvation? Ephesians 2:8–9, says, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast."
Perhaps the best place to begin when dealing with this verse is to turn to the Council of Trent. In chapter eight of the Decree on Justification, the Church said that "none of those things which precede justification—whether faith or works—merit the grace itself of justification." This means that no man can work himself into a state of justification. The New Covenant is not a system of works righteousness whereby a person can please God and earn heaven by doing a number of good deeds. This is what Paul is driving at in Ephesians 2. He is not saying that sin cannot separate us from Christ.
When he gave a litany of created things that can not separate us from the love of God in Romans 8:39, notice that he did not say, "neither fornication nor adultery nor drunkenness nor murder will separate us from the love of God." He was well aware that if we choose sin, we renounce Christ. In 1 Corinthians 15:1–2, Paul says, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain." So, you could believe, but fail to hold fast to the gospel, and not be saved (cf. 2 Pet. 2:20).
This is why Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will "take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city" (Rev 22:19).
Just because you may choose to no longer hold fast to what was freely given to you does not mean that you were ever capable of earning what was given to you in the first place. The same is true of earthly sonship—it cannot be earned. But if you were adopted, you would be free to run away as a prodigal son and lose your inheritance.
4. What’s the history behind the teaching that you could lose your salvation?
The first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.
In the first century, the Didache, commonly known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, said "Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).
In the second century, Irenaeus wrote, "To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
Such consistent testimony could be given from the dawn of Christianity until today, and no suggestion of "once saved, always saved" can be found on the lips of any Christian before Calvin.
source:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp
When a Catholic hears the above assertion, his fist inclination is to immediately launch a litany of verses that emphasize that salvation can be lost. Usually this causes the other person to present just as many verses that speak of salvation as a completed event. Both parties feel as if they have offered plenty of evidence, but no progress has been made.
There’s a better way to go at it. Concede that the Bible does speak of salvation as a past-tense event. Offer some verses of your own, such as Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith." From there, add that Scripture also speaks of salvation as a present-tense event. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
Just as we cannot deny that salvation is a past- and present-tense event, the Evangelical Protestant cannot deny that Scripture also speaks of it as a future-tense event. For evidence of this, verses such as Romans 13:11 might be offered: "our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5).
When you emphasize that salvation can be lost, the Protestant often hears, "You have not yet been saved." He knows that the Bible speaks of salvation as a past-tense event, and so no matter how many verses you offer, you will not be able to prove this to be false. The way to move beyond this impasse is to offer the big picture of salvation: past, present, and future. The Evangelical will then not feel as if you are trying to prove that he has not been saved, but will perhaps be more open to look at salvation in a broader—and more biblical—context. Once you have reached this point, it’s time to offer the evidence that the free gift of salvation can be just as freely forfeited.
2. How could I lose my salvation if Jesus said that no one could snatch me out of God’s hand (John 10:28)?
One mistake that often leads to verse slinging is failing to address a verse that is presented. When we hear a Protestant offer his verse, we think of another verse that seems to argue for our position and we toss it back to him. Then we become frustrated that he never looked seriously as the verse and threw a different one back at us. The remedy for this type of scriptural ping-pong is to take the time to look at each verse that is brought up.
In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why.
Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.
Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."
3. If you can lose your salvation by sin, doesn’t that imply that you are earning your salvation? Ephesians 2:8–9, says, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast."
Perhaps the best place to begin when dealing with this verse is to turn to the Council of Trent. In chapter eight of the Decree on Justification, the Church said that "none of those things which precede justification—whether faith or works—merit the grace itself of justification." This means that no man can work himself into a state of justification. The New Covenant is not a system of works righteousness whereby a person can please God and earn heaven by doing a number of good deeds. This is what Paul is driving at in Ephesians 2. He is not saying that sin cannot separate us from Christ.
When he gave a litany of created things that can not separate us from the love of God in Romans 8:39, notice that he did not say, "neither fornication nor adultery nor drunkenness nor murder will separate us from the love of God." He was well aware that if we choose sin, we renounce Christ. In 1 Corinthians 15:1–2, Paul says, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain." So, you could believe, but fail to hold fast to the gospel, and not be saved (cf. 2 Pet. 2:20).
This is why Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will "take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city" (Rev 22:19).
Just because you may choose to no longer hold fast to what was freely given to you does not mean that you were ever capable of earning what was given to you in the first place. The same is true of earthly sonship—it cannot be earned. But if you were adopted, you would be free to run away as a prodigal son and lose your inheritance.
4. What’s the history behind the teaching that you could lose your salvation?
The first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.
In the first century, the Didache, commonly known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, said "Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).
In the second century, Irenaeus wrote, "To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
Such consistent testimony could be given from the dawn of Christianity until today, and no suggestion of "once saved, always saved" can be found on the lips of any Christian before Calvin.
source:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp
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heymikey80
That's a declaration by you, isn't it?
What "you fail to realize" is that they are external reasons; attributable to man's own faith and being able to do righteously. You overlook those in that class of people found throughout the OT? That is failure in anyone's book.
Gods presents His 'universal' Grace; the overflow of His Nature.. The one behind the door believed what he saw and heard. He responded from himself. That is why the door handle is on his side of the door. "Whosever hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in." . . Jesus
You were saying?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
And I declare that reasons are why He does anything.
But not external reasons.
That's a declaration by you, isn't it?
What "you fail to realize" is that they are external reasons; attributable to man's own faith and being able to do righteously. You overlook those in that class of people found throughout the OT? That is failure in anyone's book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ormly
Quote:
God does not base His choice on what I want, nor does He base His choice on how well I do in life.
Where do I imply that?? However, "I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:20-21 (KJV)
Did this person open the door because he wanted to, absent God's prior choice? Or was it because of God's prior choice?
"Now what were you saying?"
Gods presents His 'universal' Grace; the overflow of His Nature.. The one behind the door believed what he saw and heard. He responded from himself. That is why the door handle is on his side of the door. "Whosever hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in." . . Jesus
You were saying?
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Catholic Christian
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
No.
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Rom 9:18
Nope, I didn't overlook it, and you have intentionally not corrected your method of confrontational expression when confronted with it. "Therefore your sin remains."
I processed it through Scripture, which says:
it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:16
One would think, if God were looking at something coming from the human will like faith, that Paul wouldn't say "it doesn't depend on human will ... but on God who has mercy." That would mean Paul was contradicting what God was actually doing.
You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" Rom 9:19
There's no reason to pose this question in your view. But Paul expects the question to confront his view. Your view is therefore not the view expressed by Paul.
Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Rom 9:20
No reason for Paul to answer this way if he had your theology, it would be simpler to say, "they are external reasons; attributable to man's own faith and being able to do righteously."
Paul doesn't answer this way. Neither will I. Why would you?
Lessee, quotations from the OT.
"None is righteous, no, not one;
no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:10-20
Or ... maybe you'd resort to Isaiah ...no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
in their paths are ruin and misery,
and the way of peace they have not known."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:10-20
Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.
For your hands are defiled with blood
and your fingers with iniquity;
your lips have spoken lies;
your tongue mutters wickedness.
No one enters suit justly;
no one goes to law honestly;
they rely on empty pleas, they speak lies,
they conceive mischief and give birth to iniquity.
They hatch adders’ eggs;
they weave the spider’s web;
he who eats their eggs dies,
and from one that is crushed a viper is hatched.
Their webs will not serve as clothing;
men will not cover themselves with what they make.
Their works are works of iniquity,
and deeds of violence are in their hands.
Their feet run to evil,
and they are swift to shed innocent blood;
their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity;
desolation and destruction are in their highways.
The way of peace they do not know,
and there is no justice in their paths;
they have made their roads crooked;
no one who treads on them knows peace.
Therefore justice is far from us,
and righteousness does not overtake us;
we hope for light, and behold, darkness,
and for brightness, but we walk in gloom.
We grope for the wall like the blind;
we grope like those who have no eyes;
we stumble at noon as in the twilight,
among those in full vigor we are like dead men.
We all growl like bears;
we moan and moan like doves;
we hope for justice, but there is none;
for salvation, but it is far from us.
For our transgressions are multiplied before you,
and our sins testify against us;
for our transgressions are with us,
and we know our iniquities:
transgressing, and denying the LORD,
and turning back from following our God,
speaking oppression and revolt,
conceiving and uttering from the heart lying words.
Justice is turned back,
and righteousness stands far away;
for truth has stumbled in the public squares,
and uprightness cannot enter.
Truth is lacking,
and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Is 59
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.
For your hands are defiled with blood
and your fingers with iniquity;
your lips have spoken lies;
your tongue mutters wickedness.
No one enters suit justly;
no one goes to law honestly;
they rely on empty pleas, they speak lies,
they conceive mischief and give birth to iniquity.
They hatch adders’ eggs;
they weave the spider’s web;
he who eats their eggs dies,
and from one that is crushed a viper is hatched.
Their webs will not serve as clothing;
men will not cover themselves with what they make.
Their works are works of iniquity,
and deeds of violence are in their hands.
Their feet run to evil,
and they are swift to shed innocent blood;
their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity;
desolation and destruction are in their highways.
The way of peace they do not know,
and there is no justice in their paths;
they have made their roads crooked;
no one who treads on them knows peace.
Therefore justice is far from us,
and righteousness does not overtake us;
we hope for light, and behold, darkness,
and for brightness, but we walk in gloom.
We grope for the wall like the blind;
we grope like those who have no eyes;
we stumble at noon as in the twilight,
among those in full vigor we are like dead men.
We all growl like bears;
we moan and moan like doves;
we hope for justice, but there is none;
for salvation, but it is far from us.
For our transgressions are multiplied before you,
and our sins testify against us;
for our transgressions are with us,
and we know our iniquities:
transgressing, and denying the LORD,
and turning back from following our God,
speaking oppression and revolt,
conceiving and uttering from the heart lying words.
Justice is turned back,
and righteousness stands far away;
for truth has stumbled in the public squares,
and uprightness cannot enter.
Truth is lacking,
and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Is 59
It's interesting to me that people cite this as an evangelistic verse. It's not. What's its context? It's in the context of those Jesus loves, reproves, and disciplines. This is disciplinary. It's in a letter to a church, a church in Jesus' presence in heaven.
But then, look at the context. If this response is wholly of the person answering, then the "conquering" the person does is wholly of the person conquering. But that's absurd. We don't conquer the world without Christ's help.
And third, check the context. If this person hears, then this person has acquired spiritual hearing without the help of the Spirit.
Yet John also wrote in John 3 that those who are spiritual are born of the Spirit.
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn 3:5-6
If this is all you mean, that the person answering the door is already born of the Spirit, it would be no matter.
Yet it isn't.
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heymikey80
And His will is never that He would make a righteous person unrighteous/wicked for His Glory. That is not the way of a loving God, is it?
Its good enough for me, look in your own eye. If you didnt overlook it then address it instead of ignoring it.
. . . . upon those who are merciful.
Faith doesnt come from the human will, acting upon it, does.
It isnt will but faith we speak of. You dont seem to make those distinctions very well when referring to Paul.
You alone are addressing what Paul is speaking of and doing a poor job of explaining him. It is not what he is even speaking of.
Simply because you have not interpreted what He was speaking of.
Mans own faith is of himself. When God sees it directed to Him, he doesnt deny that person. . . never did. God doesnt do that. It is not in His Character or Nature to do so. Read Paul a little better while keeping that in mind.
Why dont you learn that that is all ripped from their moorings. Check out David in Ps 14 and 53 and see why he penned it that way and then, hopefully, you will understand why Paul referrenced it, and then be able to explain those who were righteous that God honored by choosing them.
What is interesting is that you are purposely warping a very simple understanding of the gospel. You willfully ignore the scripture referenced, spoken by Jesus just to protect your religious bent. I dont get it. What do you think you are gaining.
And conquering!!!??? What in the world are talking about?? Boy whatta stretch to make fit what you cant!
Nope. Hopefully he was hearing the knock; God gave man hearing from creation. He expects him to use it. His willingness depends upon his need Like the woman with the issue of blood.
Yeah, he is referring to those already born again. The man behind the door, wasnt.
No relevence, Im afraid.
True, it isnt.
And His will is never that He would make a righteous person unrighteous/wicked for His Glory. That is not the way of a loving God, is it?
Its good enough for me, look in your own eye. If you didnt overlook it then address it instead of ignoring it.
. . . . upon those who are merciful.
Faith doesnt come from the human will, acting upon it, does.
It isnt will but faith we speak of. You dont seem to make those distinctions very well when referring to Paul.
You alone are addressing what Paul is speaking of and doing a poor job of explaining him. It is not what he is even speaking of.
Simply because you have not interpreted what He was speaking of.
Mans own faith is of himself. When God sees it directed to Him, he doesnt deny that person. . . never did. God doesnt do that. It is not in His Character or Nature to do so. Read Paul a little better while keeping that in mind.
Why dont you learn that that is all ripped from their moorings. Check out David in Ps 14 and 53 and see why he penned it that way and then, hopefully, you will understand why Paul referrenced it, and then be able to explain those who were righteous that God honored by choosing them.
What is interesting is that you are purposely warping a very simple understanding of the gospel. You willfully ignore the scripture referenced, spoken by Jesus just to protect your religious bent. I dont get it. What do you think you are gaining.
And conquering!!!??? What in the world are talking about?? Boy whatta stretch to make fit what you cant!
Nope. Hopefully he was hearing the knock; God gave man hearing from creation. He expects him to use it. His willingness depends upon his need
Yeah, he is referring to those already born again. The man behind the door, wasnt.
No relevence, Im afraid.
True, it isnt.
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
eph 5:1 Be therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated
eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.
love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers
Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18
Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice
eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;
why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature
eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it
eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit
King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8
eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.
Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan
1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10
disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience
eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.
possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38
we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen
2 cor 3:18
eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will
eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.
there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers
eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.
telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18
Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30
count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth
1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.
This connects to romans 4:5
all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous
1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.
the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises
1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5
1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.
1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.
1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
romans 4:5.. how to become righteous
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
2 cor 11:13-15
1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
romans 7:20
1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.
commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season
1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15
1 jn 4:10
1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8[/quote]
he responded but not to my post?
Matt 18:3-6 children do not make it complicated
eph 5: 2 and walk in love, as Christ also loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour.
love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers
Christ examples of love prior to the new comandment in John 13:34-35 is in John 13:13-15 washing the feet of the servants the more mature [master/Lord] seeing a need [dirty feet] and loving them without cost to hisself. conects to 1 jn 3:16-18
Sacrifice goes to Romans 12:1-2 to present a living sacrifice
eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be named among you, as becometh saints;
why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh
2 peter 1:4 Given the greatest and best promises so that they might be parataker in the divine nature
eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving thanks.
these believers were having a problem of giving thanks in all things .. 1 thes 5:16-18 so they joked about it
eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit
King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neigbor wife then committing adultry thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8
eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.
Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan
1 cor 11:30-32, 1 thes 5:10, 1 thes 1:10
disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for there sins was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body is God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience
eph 5:7 Be not therefore parataker with them.
possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38
we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen
2 cor 3:18
eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will
eph 5:11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather reprove them.
there problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers
eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.
telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18
Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30
count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth
1 cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the knigdom of God? Be not decieve: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulters, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW] . but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.
This connects to romans 4:5
all this is God's work ... do all christian live up to God's standards no.... but God is mercyiful and graceous
1john 3:2 Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
1 jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness
1 jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 jn 3:3 and every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is pure.
the hope of the rapture has a purifing affect... if looking to one's promises
1 jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
romans 4:15-16.... law is to unbelievers used to show they need a saviour... 1 tim 1:9.. ungodly Jude 15.... Yet to those ungodly that Believe that Jesus is God and died for their sins they are called righteous... romans 4:5
1 jn 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin.
1 jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoeversinneth hath not seen Him, neither known him.
1 jn 3:7 Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
romans 4:5.. how to become righteous
Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
2 cor 11:13-15
1 jn 3:8 He that commiteth sin of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
romans 7:20
1 jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God the Father does not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God.
commit = practice = pattern of whole life not a season
1 cor 11:30-32
heb 12:5--15
1 jn 4:10
1 jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
children of the devil ... eph 2:2-3
righteousness .... romans 4:2-8[/quote]
Excellent posts.
he responded but not to my post?
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
No, he's "burning six candles" at the same time. Too many irons in the fire, too many horses to corral, too many doggies to rope. Sorry to be slow...
I've got my bottle of tomato sauce, I'll try to ketchup this weekend...
that may be so... but how many time have to tried to change the topic this week ... Ben
too busy or not wanting to take the topic on?
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Well, how far are you willing to go against Scripture's view of God?
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Rom 9:18-21
You have the Bible. Listen to it.
I did -- note the rest of the posting.
Scripture actually contradicted this addition of yours:
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:15-16
There's no mention here, Ormly, of someone who's willing to be merciful. In fact there's explicit denial. Because someone who's willing to be merciful is willing. And "it depends not on human will."
It doesn't take long to see these facts. They're written on the page. They've been here for millenia.
But that action doesn't influence God's choosing people:
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Rom 9:15-16
Do you believe that faith doesn't involve the human will? That you can believe without wanting to believe?
I submit Scripture answers that as well. "Even the demons believe -- and tremble!" Believing, and wanting it to be otherwise, is a dead faith. This is no way to be saved by God.
It is what Paul is speaking of.
... even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
* * *
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:24-26, 30-32
It's what Paul is talking about. He's talking about God choosing people for His mercy, calling them to rely on Jesus Christ. It's individuals (Rom 9:19-20 can't be understood any other way), and God is responsible for those He has mercy on, and those He hardens. (Rom 9:8-18)"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
* * *
What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:24-26, 30-32
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Because I tend not to learn falsehoods. Paul's explicit. Paul explicitly stated why he quoted it. And you're saying I need to learn it from the Psalmist's context?
I cited Scripture for all to see why Paul assembled these quotes.
The Psalms are easy. The generation of the righteous are largely accompanied by pleas admitting that the current generation is not receiving the treatment of the generation of the righteous. Could it be that the generation needs repentance?
Aside, it's always interesting to me to see people not from Psalm-singing heritages trying to explain what the Psalms mean.
Aw, I'm sorry to upset your simple understanding.
It was your reasoning. If the reasoning doesn't fit, you must acquit ... and what you're acquitting is my argument.
So everyone has an ear to hear, and the follow-on verse means nothing in your view. That's what I expected. You've demonstrated again, your view doesn't comprehend a number of statements Scripture makes.
Undemonstrated. Lack of support. My argument stands. Jesus is writing to a church in His presence. Those Jesus is visiting are in the church in His presence.
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