Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

[nobdysfool]

ABIC, you know how to tell when Ben is refuted? He stops responding.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

But he cannot say I quit responding....

 

[Rick Otto]

 

[seashale76]

I honestly don't see how anyone can read scriptures such as this and come to any sort of OSAS conclusion. OSAS could only conceivably be considered viable if one were to qualify it with a condition that a person (whom only God knows) has worked out their faith by daily picking up their cross and following Christ and then dying in such a state. It just doesn't make sense to go around claiming to be saved. If one is in the saving ark of the Church, they are still in the water and haven't made port yet.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Mark 13:13

 

[jeffweeder]

This may of been said already, but when one is saved he gets his name recorded in the book of life right?
I mean can one get his name in the book of life without being saved?

'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

This suggests that one can be saved, but gets his name erased, so OSAS cant be true.

 

[Ormly]

Scripture says God chose us in Him before the world began. God's choosing definitely comes first. Whether you like it being a cause or not, temporally it's first.

What you fail to realize is that God doesn't make arbitrary choices. He always bases His choice upon something. If you believe He chose you, what reason might He have had?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

This may of been said already, but when one is saved he gets his name recorded in the book of life right?
I mean can one get his name in the book of life without being saved?




This suggests that one can be saved, but gets his name erased, so OSAS cant be true.

rev 3:5

 

[nobdysfool]

What you fail to realize is that God doesn't make arbitrary choices. He always bases His choice upon something. If you believe He chose you, what reason might He have had?

And you know that God doesn't make arbitrary choices, how? What constitutes an arbitrary choice, to you?

By your reasoning, God chooses those whom He chooses because of something intrinsic in them which is worthy of being chosen. Is that not what you are saying? If not, dispense with the snarky rejoinder, and explain what you mean.

 

[Catholic Christian]

As a follow up to the thread which initially asked the question, This is in poll form. But please feel free to presend whatever scriptural evidence you think supports your position.

Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, ff we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

 

[A Brother In Christ]

but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. "

Yet how can we know we have eternal life in 1 jn 5:11-13 if it is not guarenteed

why does the spirit guarantee a sealing in eph 1:13, 4:30

we as Christian are guarenteed ... if you do not believe in vain... 1 cor 15:2,10,17 three different vains beware

 

[Catholic Christian]

Yet how can we know we have eternal life in 1 jn 5:11-13 if it is not guarenteed...

Oh, you'll have eternal life alright. But where you spend it, that is the great question.

Remember: Adam and Eve were created sinless, and were in a state of grace. But through their sin they fell from grace. That is what mortal sin does.

 

[Ormly]

Oh, you'll have eternal life alright. But where you spend it, that is the great question.

Remember: Adam and Eve were created sinless, and were in a state of grace. But through their sin they fell from grace. That is what mortal sin does.

You mean there is no forgiveness?

 

[Ben johnson]

Were the Jews that cross the red sea believers .... or are they the ones who worshipped idols ..... what does God say? let go to the chapter of faith Heb 11:27-29... they just did not get to recieve their reward due to unfaithfulness in their daily life thus God waited for physical death not spiritual ... which would be consistent of 1 cor 3:12-15

Look at Heb3:18-10 --- the Israelites failed to enter the Promised Land, because of disobedience and unbelief.

Then, we're warned to "be diligent to enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their (the Israelites') example of disobedience" --- Heb4:11. Is there any way to make "fall", and "not-enter", into "still saved"? No.

love is a fruit from the spirit ... Gal 5:22-26 if not walking in the spirit they are focusing their minds on things of the earth thus becoming carnal ... thus gal 5:26 vain glory, provoking and envying other believers

Gal5:21 says "those who practice (impurity, immorality, drunkenness, carousing, etcetera), SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Is there any way to change that into "oh-they-WILL-inherit"?

No.

why are saints told this it is possible for them to walk in the flesh

Because it is possible --- please read Rom8:13 --- if we DO "walk in the flesh", we "MUST DIE".

Is there any way to make "die", into "really living in salvation"? No.

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

unclean person is one that has not been cover by the blood of Christ ... by the washing of the Holy Spirit

No, they are those who PRACTICE unclean actions. Immorality, impurity, drunkenness, carousing, outbursts --- it fits exactly with what we just read in Gal5:19-21.

King David did several of these things but before He did God promised He would be the King during the 1000 yr reign ... Thus showing that GOD in his all knowingness knew that he would murder and covet his neighbor's wife then committing adultery thus making him unclean .... That God would cover his sins already... Romans 4:5-8

David was to die --- but because of repentance, he did not. Please read Psalm51 --- here is an eloquent and thorough confession, repentance, and begging God for forgiveness.

eph 5:6 Let no man decieve you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the son's of disobedience.

Two camps ... 1 jn 3:10 children of God and the children of satan

Exactly that --- and what does 1Jn3 say about satan's camp? "They PRACTICE unrighteousness".

And GOD'S camp practices righteousness.

disobedience is the belief that Jesus died for their sins, was buried three days and arose from the dead in a new body as (?) God ... adding to this or subtracting to this gospel they are children of disobedience

"Disobedience", is "unbelief". Inseparable.

possible for wheat and tares to intermingle ... matt 13:25,38

Are "tares", saved?

(No.)

we are to be good by giving the hope in us... but this does not always happen

No, my friend --- we are NOT to be good --- we are to cling to Him, throwing ourselves down at His feet, broken and humbled; imploring Him to indwell us, and to be our "goodness", in and through us.

eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

this is about consistanty.. in your walk other wise they would not need to be reminded .... this is about God's desireous will not determintive will

I'm afraid not --- please review 2Pet1:5-10. The list of godly qualities is not optional; he says "he who LACKS these qualities, is blind/shortsighted, FORGOTTEN former purification from sins. THEREFORE be all the more diligent in your calling and election; for as long as you HAVE these qualities, you are useful (and will not "ptaio-stumble-become-wretched"); in THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided to you."

It's not "abundantly-provided, or sparsely-provided", it's "abundant, or not at all."

their problem is they they were loving the world and fellowshipping with them..... in stead of fellowshipping with other believers

And --- they could not DO that, as "saved-believers".

No one who walks in darkness and fellowships with the world, is Heaven-bound. Scripture says, "Do you not know that friendship with the world, is enmity against God?"

eph 5:14 Wherefore He saith Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine thru you.

telling the believers who were sinning to remind themselves who they are in Christ ... paid for by the blood 1 cor 6:19-20 once and for all heb 10:14-18

Awake from the sleeping (join salvation), arise from the dead (believe and be saved).

Christ is already sealed this sinner who believed ...eph 1:13, rev 3:5, eph 4:30

Some day I will convince you (by Scripture), that there is no such thing as "one who BELIEVES, but WALKS in darkness/sin". (1Jn1:6-7)

count what is true romans 6:11-13 so that God can be shown forth out of the dirt of man God character can be shown forth

You quote verses that you perceive express "exceptions" to the dictate of "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" --- but you have yet to explain how such an exception, would work. When Gal5:19-21 says "those who do these things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God", how can that be changed into, "They really WILL inherit"?

1 cor 6:11 and such were some of you [ARE RIGHT NOW]. but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, But ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our Lord.

Will you consider that "ARE RIGHT NOW", and "washed", are incompatible?

This connects to romans 4:5

The context asserts "Abraham believed, AND it was reckoned to him as righteousness." [/quote]Those who believe and receive Jesus, do not walk in unrighteousness. Those who walk in sin, do not know Jesus or God.

These are spiritual absolutes, A_Brother.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Oh, you'll have eternal life alright. But where you spend it, that is the great question.

Remember: Adam and Eve were created sinless, and were in a state of grace. But through their sin they fell from grace. That is what mortal sin does.

the fell from God's grace so much that God went to them... and made cloths for them.... still grace

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Look at Heb3:18-10 --- the Israelites failed to enter the Promised Land, because of disobedience and unbelief.

another example where your imagination has twisted scripture ... In Heb 11 God listed acts of faith .. notice heb 11:25-29

exactly what you preach ... you condemn them... wow

Yet God talks them up! Heb 11:39 a good report!

Then, we're warned to "be diligent to enter God's rest, lest anyone FALL by imitating their (the Israelites') example of disobedience" --- Heb4:11. Is there any way to make "fall", and "not-enter", into "still saved"? No.

Yet they were told to enter boldly upon the throne of grace Heb 4:16 .... unbeliever cannot do this...

Gal5:21 says "those who practice (impurity, immorality, drunkenness, carousing, etcetera), SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God." Is there any way to change that into "oh-they-WILL-inherit"?

gal 5:13 For brethren, ye have been called to liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Believer can use the flesh .... but once again shown to focus on What God says about us in Christ so that We can recieve the power of the Holy Spirit ... Gal 5:16 if not Gal 5:17 "So that you cannot do the things that you would"

if living in the flesh we cannot love other believers ... We need God power from the grace throne... romans 6:11-13, col 3:1-4, 2 tim 2:1, phil 4:7... gal 5:22-23

No.
Because it is possible --- please read Rom8:13 --- if we DO "walk in the flesh", we "MUST DIE".

everyone dies unless the rapture happens .... God does promise a believer He will take them home by Death into life if they try to practice sin... God just cuts them off the path ... 1cor 11:30-32, Heb 12:6, 2 cor 5:8

Is there any way to make "die", into "really living in salvation"? No.

I agree that they are not using their eternal life that is IN them ... why do they sin ... OSN lives in them till He comes back ... 1jn 3:2-3

No, they are those who PRACTICE unclean actions. Immorality, impurity, drunkenness, carousing, outbursts --- it fits exactly with what we just read in Gal5:19-21.
David was to die --- but because of repentance, he did not. Please read Psalm51 --- here is an eloquent and thorough confession, repentance, and begging God for forgiveness.
Exactly that --- and what does 1Jn3 say about satan's camp? "They PRACTICE unrighteousness".

practice sin .. repent still saved

God is a good, gracious and merciful God

And GOD'S camp practices righteousness.
"Disobedience", is "unbelief". Inseparable.
Are "tares", saved?

(No.)
No, my friend --- we are NOT to be good --- we are to cling to Him, throwing ourselves down at His feet, broken and humbled; imploring Him to indwell us, and to be our "goodness", in and through us.

eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

once again scripture gives a much different view than yours ... why can we go infront of the throne boldly ... ALL of our Sin is covered by THE CROSS thus the indwelling ,that OT saints did not have, made available by Christ work not man's ...

thu the place you must rethink and repent

I'm afraid not --- please review 2Pet1:5-10. The list of godly qualities is not optional; he says "he who LACKS these qualities, is blind/shortsighted, FORGOTTEN former purification from sins. THEREFORE be all the more diligent in your calling and election; for as long as you HAVE these qualities, you are useful (and will not "ptaio-stumble-become-wretched"); in THIS way the gates of Heaven will BE (abundantly) provided to you."

It's not "abundantly-provided, or sparsely-provided", it's "abundant, or not at all."
And --- they could not DO that, as "saved-believers".

No one who walks in darkness and fellowships with the world, is Heaven-bound. Scripture says, "Do you not know that friendship with the world, is enmity against God?"

But God grace allow ungodly to believe .... romans 4:5 ....

Thus in 1 peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was by them did signify, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

connect to Saul killing steven ... what did God say... acts 9:4, 1 cor 12:26

1 peter 1:12 what was different .. that the angels looked into .... the grace that they did not recieve

2 cor 3:18 But we all, with an open face beholding as in a glass[reflection/blurry] the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Awake from the sleeping (join salvation), arise from the dead (believe and be saved).
Some day I will convince you (by Scripture), that there is no such thing as "one who BELIEVES, but WALKS in darkness/sin". (1Jn1:6-7)

romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.

sleeping mean they were not using the Eternal Life but sinning thus still saved

You quote verses that you perceive express "exceptions" to the dictate of "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" --- but you have yet to explain how such an exception, would work. When Gal5:19-21 says "those who do these things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God", how can that be changed into, "They really WILL inherit"?
Will you consider that "ARE RIGHT NOW", and "washed", are incompatible?

Yet scripture again states differently

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1 cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth because of his own body.

1 cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own.

1 cor 6:20 For ye are bought [redeemed] with a price: therefore glorifiy God in your body, and in your spirit which are God's.

already saved... sin problem fornication ... yet still redeemed

The context asserts "Abraham believed, AND it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Those who believe and receive Jesus, do not walk in unrighteousness. Those who walk in sin, do not know Jesus or God.

These are spiritual absolutes, A_Brother.[/quote]

Yet soon as God said the Abraham was Justified by believing ... He doubted God... gen 15:8

unbelief ... Yet still saved

 

[Ben johnson]

ABIC, you know how to tell when Ben is refuted? He stops responding.

There are at least a dozen ways to respond to this; but my best response, is to pray that I have never responded with hatefulness nor hostility to you.

...and if I ever have, then to ask forgiveness.

 

[Ben johnson]

another example where your imagination has twisted scripture ... In Heb 11 God listed acts of faith .. notice heb 11:25-29

Heb3:18-20, says what it says; how do you remove what was written?

exactly what you preach ... you condemn them... wow

Yet God talks them up! Heb 11:39 a good report!

Those in Heb11:39, "gained approval through their faith". Those in Heb3:18-20 failed to enter the Promised land, because of faithlessness and disobedience. Do you really think the two passages are talking about the same people?

The second group, was named: Sarah, Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, Samuel and the prophets.

Yet they were told to enter boldly upon the throne of grace Heb 4:16 .... unbeliever cannot do this...

You've never explained to me --- how if "salvation is by grace through faith", how then can someone be "faithlessly saved"?

Believer can use the flesh .... but once again shown to focus on What God says about us in Christ so that We can recieve the power of the Holy Spirit ... Gal 5:16 if not Gal 5:17 "So that you cannot do the things that you would"

Gal5:21 says "They that do these things, shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

How do you change it into "oh they will inherit"?

if living in the flesh we cannot love other believers ... We need God power from the grace throne... romans 6:11-13, col 3:1-4, 2 tim 2:1, phil 4:7... gal 5:22-23

Please explain how "living in the flesh", is compatible with "dead to sin and alive in Christ"?

everyone dies unless the rapture happens .... God does promise a believer He will take them home by Death into life if they try to practice sin... God just cuts them off the path ... 1cor 11:30-32, Heb 12:6, 2 cor 5:8

Rom8:12-13 is clearly speaking of "die, spiritually". The two opposing positions, are:
Live in the flesh, DIE.
By the Spirit put to death the flesh, live.

The Spirit does not indwell those who are living in the flesh, pursuing fornication, drunkenness, carousing, etcetera.

Do you believe He does?
Or, do you believe one can be saved without being indwelt by the Spirit?

practice sin .. repent still saved

Do you accept that "practice-sin", is opposite to "repent"?

God is a good, gracious and merciful God

And He is also JUST. He would be unjust to reward with eternal life, those who practice sin.

And --- they could not DO that, as "saved-believers".

That's the point, "A_Believer". We either walk in sin (and be unsaved), OR walk in His righteousness, in Him (saved).

Always a choice...

But God grace allow ungodly to believe .... romans 4:5 ....

If they believe, they are no longer ungodly.
If they are ungodly, then they do not believe.

What do you think of Jesus' words in Matt7, "You will KNOW them by their fruits? No good tree (saved) produces bad fruit (walks in sin), no bad tree (unsaved) produces good fruit (righteousness)."

sleeping mean they were not using the Eternal Life but sinning thus still saved

"Sleeping", means "willfully sinning". You admit that; but you do not accept that cannot be "saved".

Yet scripture again states differently

1 cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

"WERE", my friend; past tense.

"If any man be IN CHRIST (saved!), he is a new creation; the old has passed away (sinful ways), behold all has become new." 2Cor5:17

If a man is not "become new", then he is not "in Christ", not saved.

already saved... sin problem fornication ... yet still redeemed

Not if they fail to "flee fornication"...

Yet soon as God said the Abraham was Justified by believing ... He doubted God... gen 15:8

unbelief ... Yet still saved

If "unbelief is saved", then how can anyone perish?

 

[Ben johnson]

Yet how can we know we have eternal life in 1 jn 5:11-13 if it is not guarenteed

why does the spirit guarantee a sealing in eph 1:13, 4:30

we as Christian are guarenteed ... if you do not believe in vain... 1 cor 15:2,10,17 three different vains beware

He's 100% right; the guarantee, is based on our continuing in faith. Stated clearly in Col1:21-23, and many other places.

You cite Eph1:13 --- do you accept that very verse, explicitly states "AFTER believing"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, ff we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

This is an excellent, and eloquently stated post; fully Scriptural (with citations!).

The only thing I might add, is a thought about "assurance".

In 1Jn5:11-13, we are told that "we can KNOW we (who HAVE Jesus), have eternal life".

So I would mildly disagree with the statement, "we cannot be infallibly sure of our salvation". We can. It is based on HIM, and not on US.

It is as Paul wrote to Timothy, 2:1:14-16: I know whom I have believed, and am confident that He can guard that which I have entrusted to Him. ...Now, guard, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us, the treasure entrusted to you."

We entrust (our faith), He guards; He entrusts (eternal life), we guard.

Fully a two-way-street.

 

[Catholic Christian]

You mean there is no forgiveness?

Come on, Big O: Did I say that?